PHEV's under attack?

[Hayzee]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-07-28/plug-in-hybrid-cars-are-running-out-of-road

What's your take on this? Interesting perspectives.

[ernieb]

Interesting but against a background of the significant PHEV manufacture's not been able to supply right now and certainly in the UK many being in the hands of business owners who have no incentive to charge the car as they get fully reimbursed for petrol. (not all business owners but I guess many) I think there is a much bigger picture at play with the current car manufacturing environment, major continuing supply problems and governments flip flopping with the rules because of environmental concerns making the markets less stable. There is also the obvious cost implications of buying any new car plus the added cost of a PHEV at a time of hyper inflation and potentially major issues with the world's energy supply.

[nlee]

Exactly as I see it in my circumstances, a transition until BEVs and infrastructure get better. I'm fairly sure I will be in a BEV in 2 or 5 years time, but for now, there's nothing I'd rather be driving.

[philip42h]

It's a silly and pointless article ... It does show that BEVs have outsold PHEVs consistently (just) which isn't too surprising since a BEV will suit some folk perfectly well. But it entirely ignores sales of hybrids and other lower emission ICE vehicles.

No one needs a PHEV - a HEV would do instead and this will probably continue to be the case until we eventually arrive at a BEV-only world. The PHEV is a compromise - it provides some of the benefits of a short range BEV with the real world unlimited range of a HEV (or ICE) but at the cost and expense of carrying an extra engine or Battery when it doesn't need one.

But at the end of the day, until more realistic WLTP figures / legislation make PHEVs unattractive (if ever) manufacturers will continue to make them and customers will continue to buy them.

I can't see the infrastructure issues being addressed within a five year time frame (one can always hope) but I trust that the situation will be significantly addressed within the next decade. And that's plenty of time for manufacturers to introduce smaller, lighter and more affordable PHEVs.

 

[Hayzee]

I agree with much of your comments above. However, what if the UK government decided to drastically and adversely change the BIK on PHEV's to better reflect their real world non-EV usage by business users? That would have a significant effect on PHEV demand.

[Broadway One]

10 hours ago, philip42h said:

I can't see the infrastructure issues being addressed within a five year time frame (one can always hope) but I trust that the situation will be significantly addressed within the next decade. And that's plenty of time for manufacturers to introduce smaller, lighter and more affordable PHEVs.

Evening all........or in the meantime should Toyota increase the EV range of the RAV to 70/100mls*  I'm sure we would all be happy to remain committed to such a great motor for the next decade.......or even more.

*More than possible from the amazing Toyota hybrid engineering to date IMO. 

Barry Wright, Lancashire. 

[NASY]

Funny how we see things so differently. I see the BEV as a compromise vehicle, where only one source of power is available, a bit like not having a wood burner in an otherwise centrally heated house, sounds pretty fragile and like a compromise house. Sure I travel on electricity but I'm carrying a backup or contingency in an alternative source system, kind of the best of worlds really.

[Derek.w]

My problem with PHev and ev is pluging it in to make use of its electric range!.

I receved a letter from the council stating that I be within 5 minutes walk of a councle charge point but to date the council do not have a car park near me never mind a charge point within 5 minutes walk.

Then again who wants to walk we want multipal chargers it in our street.

Then again as we having problems generating electric to cope with 40degrees centrigade how will we cope with all those electric cars pluged into the grid when we change over.

[AJones]

12 hours ago, philip42h said:

No one needs a PHEV - a HEV would do instead and this will probably continue to be the case until we eventually arrive at a BEV-only world. The PHEV is a compromise - it provides some of the benefits of a short range BEV with the real world unlimited range of a HEV (or ICE) but at the cost and expense of carrying an extra engine or battery when it doesn't need one.

Yes a HEV would do, but it isn't as good as a PHEV. A HEV is basically a more efficient petrol car, whereas a PHEV can run on electric from the grid giving lower running costs and lower carbon emissions. It's also nice having enough EV range to do whole journeys purely on electric, particularly when driving around town.

The extra weight thing gets raised but as long as you plug the PHEV in, it provides a benefit each time you use it and doesn't make much difference compared to a HEV overall.

[Broadway One]

Morning all......thanks for this topic & the lively response.

I think the  way Toyota approached the whole HV, PHEV, concept is ingenious with their CVT blending the power sources. IMO Toyota engineering has elevated the HV, PHEV, BEV to a new level, taking the industry by surprise whilst providing us with a menu of exciting choices.

Totally agree Ernie with your comment re our flip flopping government policy.

Great term that, but unfortunately spot on........Barry Wright, Lancashire.       

[Cyker]

10 hours ago, AJones said:

Yes a HEV would do, but it isn't as good as a PHEV. A HEV is basically a more efficient petrol car, whereas a PHEV can run on electric from the grid giving lower running costs and lower carbon emissions. It's also nice having enough EV range to do whole journeys purely on electric, particularly when driving around town.

The extra weight thing gets raised but as long as you plug the PHEV in, it provides a benefit each time you use it and doesn't make much difference compared to a HEV overall.

I think that's been the biggest problem with PHEVs so far - You *have* to plug them in every day to get the advantage, but it seems the majority of PHEV owners don't often charge them at home so they effectively end up just being worse HEVs.

I know a few people who bought the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV but have never plugged it in - I suspect the cables are still sealed in plastic!

[bunnyrabbit03]

I think it really depends on your use case. I was looking at a BEV in October last year (VW id3), but with a commuting range of 140 miles one way (I occasionally do this in one day as a 280 miles return journey), no charging at work, only one fast charger outside work with high public charging costs, range anxiety in winter (real world range minus 20%), it did not add up - at least for me. And the long-distance commuting ruled out a PHEV - again, from my perspective. So I bought a HEV instead and I am very happy with it for my particular use case. Without the long-distance commuting, I would have bought the id3. With the range continuously improving, the next car will be a BEV.

[Hayzee]

I heard that the October energy price cap is likely to increase by 77% and there will be another increase in January next year ( don't know how much). It's possible that average home charging rates could be around 54p/KwH early next year. Commercially available EV charging will be quite a bit higher particularly for fast chargers.

It's very unclear how Electricity prices will pan out over the next couple of years (hopefully they will start to come down) but paying north of 60p/KwH to charge up the EV will be a bitter pill to swallow.

[philip42h]

18 minutes ago, bunnyrabbit03 said:

it really depends on your use case ...

Very true. Describing the PHEV or HEV as 'better' than the other is pretty meaningless - it depends on what criteria you want to use to judge. For me the HEV is 'better' in terms of cost - it's much more affordable. For others the performance of the PHEV makes it 'better'. And for others again, the 'green credentials' of the PHEV are more attractive.

For the company car driver, the PHEV is 'better' due to the BIK implications of a wildly optimistic WLTP rating. And while our resident PHEVies clearly do exploit the EV range of their cars to the full, there is nothing to stop someone with a company fuel card using it as a HEV and never charging it at all.

And I don't blame the company car driver - they don't make the rules and the company car benefit is just a part of their remuneration package (as it was mine when I had one!).

But the rules are plain stupid and need 'fixing'. If that makes the PHEV less attractive and need to stand on it's real benefits as opposed to accidents of administration, so be it.

[NASY]

Philip, totally agree with your comments. I don't know how the rules are set up so they are so obviously require fixing but I suspect it is similar to the issues around green energy. No engineer would design a system of electricity production without at the same time dealing with the issue of storage and distribution but somehow that's where we get to. Must be some non-tech's pulling the strings.

[Broadway One]

8 hours ago, NASY said:

9 hours ago, NASY said:

Philip, totally agree with your comments. I don't know how the rules are set up so they are so obviously require fixing but I suspect it is similar to the issues around green energy. No engineer would design a system of electricity production without at the same time dealing with the issue of storage and distribution but somehow that's where we get to. Must be some non-tech's pulling the strings.

Hi.......very much so.

I would also add the fragmentation of ownership of major UK utilities to foreign governments leaving CEO's as mere talking heads with no authority on strategy.

How can a co-ordinated long term approach be possible based on decisions being taken in Paris, Brussels, Berlin, Madrid, & Sydney rather than the UK ? 

It seems a total betrayal of Margaret Thatchers privatisation programme with the transfer of the ownership of vital energy & transport infrastructure from the UK state to overseas governments control in a matter of a few decades. Sure Mrs Thatcher didn't envisage such leading to the mess we are in now.

In the meantime everything crossed for a mild autumn/winter, otherwise cold evening meals by candle light may be the norm.

Barry Wright, Lancashire.   

 

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[Cyker]

Ugh don't get me started on her...!

Infrastructure should never be privatized - Doing so is what has put us in the position we are in now!

[Flatcoat]

If HS2 is an example of nationalised infrastructure then give me privatisation any day. And getting back to the topic I read that Toyota are threatening to pull out of the UK if the govt follow through their plan to ban new hybrids. Maybe a few more comments from industry will get a realistic response and outcome instead of policy by groupthink. 

[Cyker]

At least HS2 is creating something, rather than just hoovering up passenger fare money without putting it back into improving infrastructure which out idiot government bails them out of with our money when it fails, then sells it back to them for a fraction...

If you mean Toyota pulling out because of the 2030 cut-off, well they'll be pulling out of the whole EU then, and I can't see that happening! I think that was an old idle threat anyway, and not just from them.

Given they and several other manufacturers were threatening to be pulling out because of brexit as well I can't see it as more than an idle threat; Only manufacturers who have no EV roadmap will be more likely to leave at that point...

 

 

[Hornet3D]

11 hours ago, Cyker said:

Ugh don't get me started on her...!

Infrastructure should never be privatized - Doing so is what has put us in the position we are in now!

I am not a fan of nationalisation but basic need companies and infrastructure is really the exception.  In our area I water company was taken over by a rogue Australian (nothing against Australian companies in general, it just a fact that this was Australian)  company that paid high prices to the top brass and good dividends to share holders but then sold the company with ten million pounds of debt.  It then purchased another water company where the debt has recently increased from four million pounds to five million pounds.  The same company is now placing it's customer's under a hosepipe ban while the same company's network leaks thousands of gallons of water each day.  It has also been fined for polluting rivers with sewage.   

As the UK starts to build it's charging infrastructure is there any signs that we have learnt our lesson from the utility companies that exist today.  Put another way when will this country stay quiet while we are robbed blind and continue to reward the very same people for failure.

[Flatcoat]

My point is HS2 would happen a lot quicker without govt interference. I now work in the public sector and I have realised there is nothing they can’t and don’t make worse than when I worked in the private sector. The worst phrase in the English language is ‘I am from the government and here to help’. 

[Hornet3D]

43 minutes ago, Flatcoat said:

My point is HS2 would happen a lot quicker without govt interference. I now work in the public sector and I have realised there is nothing they can’t and don’t make worse than when I worked in the private sector. The worst phrase in the English language is ‘I am from the government and here to help’. 

That is true of both national and local government generally because they never really understood what it was they were asking companies to tender for and then keep changing the requirements as the program progresses.

[Cyker]

Oh right, yeah, can't argue with that...  

The problem is everyone has their hands in the pie, left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing and everyone's skimming off backhanders so everything takes 5 times and long and costs 5 times more than it should.

I guess at least it keeps people employed I suppose...!  

Reminds me of a guy I was speaking to ages ago who'd been brought in from a firm in hong kong as a consultant on some construction project, and he was going crazy because he couldn't believe how long everything took due to even small changes needing to be sent back up the chain to be signed off by multiple people, things that had to be checked when they'd already been checked, lots of worker breaks, health and safety stuff etc.  I remember him saying in HK the project would have been finished already but they weren't even half-way through  

 

[IanML]

16 hours ago, Cyker said:

...If you mean Toyota pulling out because of the 2030 cut-off, well they'll be pulling out of the whole EU then, and I can't see that happening! I think that was an old idle threat anyway, and not just from them.

Given they and several other manufacturers were threatening to be pulling out because of brexit as well I can't see it as more than an idle threat; Only manufacturers who have no EV roadmap will be more likely to leave at that point...

 

 

I agree.  Anyway, PHEV cut-off is 2035, which gives Toyota and everyone else 13 years to shift over to BEV and FC+BHEV (Fuel Cell plus Battery Hybrid), and spread the necessary infrastructure.

[ernieb]

14 minutes ago, IanML said:

I agree.  Anyway, PHEV cut-off is 2035, which gives Toyota and everyone else 13 years to shift over to BEV and FC+BHEV (Fuel Cell plus Battery Hybrid), and spread the necessary infrastructure.

My guess is that PHEV will continue to be sold in numbers right up to the date and of course will carry on being used until they are scrapped or legislation is enacted to stop them being licensed.