Swappable Battery Packs

[Hayzee]

I have thought for some time that swappable Battery packs would be a great concept to address some of the EV charging infrastructure issues. Looks like we may see such an implementation for at least commercial EV's in the future.

https://carbuzz.com/news/toyotas-cartridge-batteries-are-the-answer-to-long-charge-times

[ernieb]

I think it's one of those great ideas that will probably prove to be impracticable unless manufacturers all decided to use a similar interface and Battery size. The cost of the infrastructure for every manufacturer, for every car type, thought their range and at locations throughout the country would be horrendous. Maybe it could work for say for small trucks but can not see it being main line for consumers.

[forkingabout]

Meanwhile over in Toyota electric forklift world, swappable Battery packs that have been around for many decades are now falling out of favour with a lot of customer as they switch over to lithium ion or hydrogen fuel cells. 

[Roy124]

Lee, as a matter of interest, how long did a pack change take? 

[forkingabout]

10 minutes ago, Roy124 said:

Lee, as a matter of interest, how long did a pack change take? 

Lead acid = 8 hours average but these trucks can have exchange facility where you swop the Battery out for a fully charged replacement, they normally roll out the side but certain trucks you lift them out with another forklift. 

Lithium ion = 80 minutes average - these batteries are not user swappable as there permanently mounted inside the truck for safety, but these batteries can be charged during shift breaks etc to top the charge level up. 

Hydrogen fuel cell refuel = 3 minutes. 

At the moment lithium ion is the preferred tech as no customer maintenance required, they have a longer overall service life & also virtually no opportunity for customer abuse or damage. 

[Cyker]

The problem is they weigh *a lot* - Even the piddly 0.7kW Battery in my Mk4 is not safely movable by a single human; Imagine what these 100kW packs would be like??

I suppose you could break the packs down into 'standard' smaller sizes, like how stuff needs 8xAA batteries, so you could have cars that run on e.g. 20xY batteries or something, but if these are human-swappable that opens up the possibility of theft as people crack the lock off and steal all your car batteries.

 

[Hayzee]

5 hours ago, ernieb said:

I think it's one of those great ideas that will probably prove to be impracticable unless manufacturers all decided to use a similar interface and battery size. 

VHS v Betamax Ernie? lol. I think Toyota are looking at the feasibility of such a concept for a specific range of commercial vehicles where it might be possible to standardise. As has been pointed out there is a weight issue but they will already be aware of that.

Looks like they are in the Solid State Battery development camp for cars.

[Lawnmowerman]

Years ago, Castrol developed a combined oil/filter cartridge system which could be changed in seconds. They did this with an Aston Martin & Ford who modified an engine to a dry sump arrangement.

It worked fine but the odds were stacked against it. Nobody would re-engineer current engines to make use of it (not commercially viable) so would be reliant on new engines designed with this concept in mind.

With improved machining techniques, oil & filter technology it faded into a dark corner as do many initiatives. But these ideas are relatively inexpensive for R&D departments to get to trial stages.

Edited July 31, 2022 by Lawnmowerman
Wrong attribute

[flash22]

The biggest killer of anything like this is

1. Accountants

2. The lowest common denominator - the ones that you wonder how they got their licence or managed to avoid getting the most sort after Darwin award, you just know someone will try to fry themselves

[Cyker]

What do you mean oil filter cartridge system? Don't we have those already??

[Roger_N]

32 minutes ago, Cyker said:

What do you mean oil filter cartridge system? Don't we have those already??

I think if you read it as Castrol developed a combined oil and filter cartridge system, if not I don't know what was meant.

[Roger_N]

My issue with this is how do you warranty a Battery pack? or indeed say it has a life of X years.

If you had just bought a nice shinny new car and change the Battery how do you know what you are getting in terms of it's age?

Also the infrastructure required to change a pack and store packs would need a something the size of a small house, it may be quicker than recharging if you can just drive in but if there is a queue it could take much longer than waiting for a fast charging point.

There was a demonstration of one of these in action on one of the Fifth Gear Recharge programs, showing a Chinese copy of a Range Rover having it's Battery changed.

[forkingabout]

FWIW - I know the Makita LXT Battery packs for there power tools have a chip inside to keep tabs of there charge / discharge cycle for warranty purposes.

The lithium ion Battery packs for the BT / Toyota forklifts have a Battery management computer inside with full can bus integration in to the forklifts main control unit.

 

As for EV - I'm sure someone will come up with a way of reading the battery health / condition via the OBD port using a dongle / hand held device.

[Roger_N]

9 minutes ago, forkingabout said:

FWIW - I know the Makita LXT battery packs for there power tools have a chip inside to keep tabs of there charge / discharge cycle for warranty purposes.

The lithium ion battery packs for the BT / Toyota forklifts have a battery management computer inside with full can bus integration in to the forklifts main control unit.

 

As for EV - I'm sure someone will come up with a way of reading the battery health / condition via the OBD port using a dongle / hand held device.

I think you said before that the Lithium ion batteries for the forklift trucks were none removable and Makita tool batteries are not the same thing in terms the possible danger or cost.

[forkingabout]

4 minutes ago, Roger_N said:

I think you said before that the Lithium ion batteries for the forklift trucks were none removable and Makita tool batteries are not the same thing in terms the possible danger or cost.

They all keep an electronic track of there charge / discharge cycles so anyone with the correct equipment can get a instant report on the Battery pack condition & health.

[ernieb]

51 minutes ago, Roger_N said:

My issue with this is how do you warranty a battery pack? or indeed say it has a life of X years.

If you had just bought a nice shinny new car and change the battery how do you know what you are getting in terms of it's age?

Also the infrastructure required to change a pack and store packs would need a something the size of a small house, it may be quicker than recharging if you can just drive in but if there is a queue it could take much longer than waiting for a fast charging point.

There was a demonstration of one of these in action on one of the Fifth Gear Recharge programs, showing a Chinese copy of a Range Rover having it's battery changed.

I had my first service, PHEV,  in June and one piece of paper I was given after the service and was commented on by the service rep was that the traction Battery was in good condition. So either they do a test or somehow interrogate the cars systems. Whatever they do it is checked.

[Roy124]

Lee, I meant how long to do a lead acid Battery pack swap, not how long to charge. 

[forkingabout]

4 minutes ago, Roy124 said:

Lee, I meant how long to do a lead acid battery pack swap, not how long to charge. 

5 minutes or less to swop one - some trucks are quicker then others.

WIth practice & a decent operator you can swop them in under a minute.

[Lawnmowerman]

2 hours ago, Cyker said:

What do you mean oil filter cartridge system? Don't we have those already??

It integrates the oil reservoir and filter in a removable cartridge system. No large sump with a volume of oil in it. No need to drain oil - it is all contained in the cartridge (or cassette if that makes sense.

See Castrol Nexcel.

[Roger_N]

41 minutes ago, forkingabout said:

They all keep an electronic track of there charge / discharge cycles so anyone with the correct equipment can get a instant report on the battery pack condition & health.

The OP post was about changing a Battery pack instead of recharging, I was listing some of the drawbacks to this, so unless you can get all the manufactures to produce the same size and fitting this isn't going to happen, as one size will not fit all.

[Roy124]

1 hour ago, forkingabout said:

5 minutes or less to swop one - some trucks are quicker then others.

WIth practice & a decent operator you can swop them in under a minute.

Good benefit, depends on cost then. 

I know it has been tried with cars but the logistics of providing a replacement pack for any specific car at any location probably destroys any benefit. It might work if there was a handful of Battery specs and a broad enough market. 

[Cyker]

57 minutes ago, Lawnmowerman said:

It integrates the oil reservoir and filter in a removable cartridge system. No large sump with a volume of oil in it. No need to drain oil - it is all contained in the cartridge (or cassette if that makes sense.

See Castrol Nexcel.

Oh I see what you mean! That's pretty neat, it's like a modular sump+oil-filter  

Definitely only suitable for a dry-sump system tho'.

That said, I can see why it didn't take off - It is a bit of a solution looking for a problem. I could only see this having any real use in endurance motorsport or something...

 

[NASY]

The Battery pack swap was something I worked up as an idea in I think 2006. The loading of a Battery pack is not unlike the operation of loading ordinance or other stores onto a fast jet. True there needs to be some industry standard in fitment and health monitoring for the components. As for Battery ownership I think it works best if the car owner subscribes to access to batteries rather than outright ownership, meaning the onus on quality is on the service provider. Makes more sense to me to have to subscribe for energy than just an option like a heated seat.

 

[Roger_N]

1 hour ago, NASY said:

The battery pack swap was something I worked up as an idea in I think 2006. The loading of a battery pack is not unlike the operation of loading ordinance or other stores onto a fast jet. True there needs to be some industry standard in fitment and health monitoring for the components. As for battery ownership I think it works best if the car owner subscribes to access to batteries rather than outright ownership, meaning the onus on quality is on the service provider. Makes more sense to me to have to subscribe for energy than just an option like a heated seat.

 

Yes it makes sense but car makes will still do there own thing, Tesla will not comply and from the number I see are possibly the most popular BEV's on the roads at present.

Even torch batteries which have been going for years we still have AAA, AA, D cell, C cell all giving the same output voltage.

[Flatcoat]

Crazy idea - has anyone calculated the variables and logistics involved? I am all for disrupter ideas but this is a non starter, especially given BEV’s themselves or at least in their current guise will be the modern age Betamax.