Squeaky brakes

[venomx]

Got some new high end pads fitted a few weeks ago.

Three days later, slight squeal when coming to a complete stop.

Gave plenty of time to bed in, still continued.

So i got the car serviced last week, since then the squeaks are even louder and more annoying. Rather than just when coming to a stop, I now regularly hear a bird like whistle when driving, stops when I brake, then continues when driving.

I had the rear shoes and brake fitting kit done today for the drums, hoping that might fix it. Nope.

 

All I know is its definitely from the driver side and possibly the front, as when I steer left and right it goes louder then quieter.

 

MOT in a month time, so I could wait until then as I'm forever going down the mechanic for bits here and there..

 

Any ideas,

[TonyHSD]

Hi, 

does the pads has wearing metal bits attached to them to warn you when pads are wearing thin? If yes how correctly these were installed? 

Does your pads fitted with metal shims too and we’re they in good shape ? 

What brand pads have you installed? Any markings ( scorching on the disc surface? Any pictures? 
Normal brake behaviour is to produce some noise just before the car comes to a complete stop, more prominent on automatic cars but other than that should be quiet . 👍

 

[Cyker]

Some things to check:

Brake heat shields; These often get a bit bent, esp as they age and get rusty, and can rub against the disc (This is a very common yaris problem, esp. as they get older - I think garage mechanics bash them or push against them inadvertently)

Stones/debris stuck between the brake disc and pad (Can happen but usually sorts itself out so less likely)

Brake pads - Do they have anti-squeal shims? If not, may be worth having some copper grease put on the backs of them (Only the backs!! And only a  thin layer! Don't let that get anywhere the brake pad surfaces or discs!!). My EBCs came with 3M-branded self-adhesive rubber backings which I presume stops the pad from vibrating and squealing.

Wear indicator - As Tony says, most pads have a metal thingy that sticks out and rubs against the disc when it gets low, but these tend to be quite obvious as they're really loud and it only really happens when you're braking, not all the time.

 

My Mk4 Hybrid sometimes develops brake squeal when they get warm; It goes away at certain steering angles, and when I'm braking, so I suspect it's a pad thing. Heavy braking from a high-ish speed (e.g. coming down an off-ramp from motorway speeds to a roundabout) usually makes it go away, although sometimes I reverse quite quick and then brake firmly, which seems to help clear them easier, but finding somewhere to do this safely can be a challenge, esp. since I can see sweet FA out the back compared to the earlier ones!!

 

Edit: I just noticed you said high-end pads - If these are like, harder track-ready pads or pads that have a higher metal portion, this might be normal as track pads have a tendency to be quite squeally, esp. semi-metallic types.

[venomx]

14 hours ago, Cyker said:

Some things to check:

Brake heat shields; These often get a bit bent, esp as they age and get rusty, and can rub against the disc (This is a very common yaris problem, esp. as they get older - I think garage mechanics bash them or push against them inadvertently)

Stones/debris stuck between the brake disc and pad (Can happen but usually sorts itself out so less likely)

Brake pads - Do they have anti-squeal shims? If not, may be worth having some copper grease put on the backs of them (Only the backs!! And only a  thin layer! Don't let that get anywhere the brake pad surfaces or discs!!). My EBCs came with 3M-branded self-adhesive rubber backings which I presume stops the pad from vibrating and squealing.

Wear indicator - As Tony says, most pads have a metal thingy that sticks out and rubs against the disc when it gets low, but these tend to be quite obvious as they're really loud and it only really happens when you're braking, not all the time.

 

My Mk4 Hybrid sometimes develops brake squeal when they get warm; It goes away at certain steering angles, and when I'm braking, so I suspect it's a pad thing. Heavy braking from a high-ish speed (e.g. coming down an off-ramp from motorway speeds to a roundabout) usually makes it go away, although sometimes I reverse quite quick and then brake firmly, which seems to help clear them easier, but finding somewhere to do this safely can be a challenge, esp. since I can see sweet FA out the back compared to the earlier ones!!

 

Edit: I just noticed you said high-end pads - If these are like, harder track-ready pads or pads that have a higher metal portion, this might be normal as track pads have a tendency to be quite squeally, esp. semi-metallic types.

I've checked the heat shield, looks the same on both sides, the noise is definitely the front driver side.

Cannot be debris as I've done lots of hard stops since last Thursday, noise is still there and stops when I brake. I have used brake cleaner, and a hose to clean the pads/discs from the outside.

I'm not sure about the shims, however I can see signs of plenty copper grease on the outside of the pads so I'd assume they've been lubricated properly.

14 hours ago, TonyHSD said:

Hi, 

does the pads has wearing metal bits attached to them to warn you when pads are wearing thin? If yes how correctly these were installed? 

Does your pads fitted with metal shims too and we’re they in good shape ? 

What brand pads have you installed? Any markings ( scorching on the disc surface? Any pictures? 
Normal brake behaviour is to produce some noise just before the car comes to a complete stop, more prominent on automatic cars but other than that should be quiet . 👍

 

Not sure which brand as the mechanic installed them. This annoying tweeting/chirping noise started after getting the car serviced.

No scorching on the disc, they look fine. I'll get a pic later.

 

Sliders look like they're going in and out properly, and cannot see anything loose by the brakes.

 

If I turn the steering wheel left/right it goes louder and quieter. Any clues as to why ?

[TonyHSD]

2 hours ago, venomx said:

I've checked the heat shield, looks the same on both sides, the noise is definitely the front driver side.

Cannot be debris as I've done lots of hard stops since last Thursday, noise is still there and stops when I brake. I have used brake cleaner, and a hose to clean the pads/discs from the outside.

I'm not sure about the shims, however I can see signs of plenty copper grease on the outside of the pads so I'd assume they've been lubricated properly.

Not sure which brand as the mechanic installed them. This annoying tweeting/chirping noise started after getting the car serviced.

No scorching on the disc, they look fine. I'll get a pic later.

 

Sliders look like they're going in and out properly, and cannot see anything loose by the brakes.

 

If I turn the steering wheel left/right it goes louder and quieter. Any clues as to why ?

When you have changed the pads have you changed the discs too? 

[Cyker]

If it changes when you turn the steering I'm still leaning toward the heat shields (They often look fine but still somehow cause the squeak in the Mk1s and Mk2s) - Only thing I can think of is to get the car on a lift and have someone spin the wheel to try and pinpoint the squeaking.

Also, if the pads are new, they sometimes just do this until they bed in, which can take a while depending on how much the car is used and the type of driving (They will bed in much quicker for someone driving in a congested city than a motorway warrior for instance!)

 

[venomx]

1 hour ago, TonyHSD said:

When you have changed the pads have you changed the discs too? 

Discs were 6 months ago. Pads were 3 weeks ago

1 hour ago, Cyker said:

If it changes when you turn the steering I'm still leaning toward the heat shields (They often look fine but still somehow cause the squeak in the Mk1s and Mk2s) - Only thing I can think of is to get the car on a lift and have someone spin the wheel to try and pinpoint the squeaking.

Also, if the pads are new, they sometimes just do this until they bed in, which can take a while depending on how much the car is used and the type of driving (They will bed in much quicker for someone driving in a congested city than a motorway warrior for instance!)

 

OK. In regards to the heat shield, why would applying the brake stop it from squeaking ?

When you say heat sheild, do you mean this one ?

 

I have myself a jack etc so I can look myself. When re lubricating the pads, which type of grease should be used, copper grease? Also which sort of grease for the sliders ?

I have a scissor jack, will that do the job ? I won't be going underneath the car, just around the brakes.

Pads have been on there for well over 1,000 miles now so will be bedded in.

Thanks 🙂 

[TonyHSD]

1 hour ago, venomx said:

Discs were 6 months ago. Pads were 3 weeks ago

OK. In regards to the heat shield, why would applying the brake stop it from squeaking ?

When you say heat sheild, do you mean this one ?

 

I have myself a jack etc so I can look myself. When re lubricating the pads, which type of grease should be used, copper grease? Also which sort of grease for the sliders ?

I have a scissor jack, will that do the job ? I won't be going underneath the car, just around the brakes.

Pads have been on there for well over 1,000 miles now so will be bedded in.

Thanks 🙂 

Common mistakes here.

When changing  brake components best practice is to change both disc and pads at the same time, unless the discs are really like new with almost no lip at the end or any rust or scorching. In this case pads like EBC Ultimax with abrasive bed in coating can be used or discs needs to be cleaned with wood sandpaper and wire brush to remove previous shiny coating. Or run on special lathe machine to remove this coating and any eventual contamination. 
When only discs are changed the old brake pads needs to be shaved a bit with rough file to remove top coating., then take it easy for the next few hundreds miles to allow proper bed in process. 
This is where the things likely went wrong and now you either have to replace all again or do the procedures explained above. 

1. Dismantle all brake components 

2. Clean callipers with wire brush and brake cleaner spray 

3. Clean the discs with wire brush and wood sandpaper , brake cleaner to finish 

4. Clean the pads with wire brush and spray

5. Clean hubs with wire brush, spray and make them free from rust and grease. 
6. Lube the pins with silicone grease and put back in all. 

Use only silicone or red rubber grease for the slider pins and dry fit anything else. Do not use any grease or any lubricants between pads, wheel, hubs and bolts. Just clean to bare metal , lube the slider pins , check the pistons return freely. Easy on the brakes as they will be weak as new or even worse. After 200 easy miles  you will have quiet and grippy brakes. 👍

 

[Guest]

6 hours ago, venomx said:

Cannot be debris as I've done lots of hard stops since last Thursday,

How did you "bed in" the new pads? Could they be heat "glazed" because of too much heavy initial braking?

[venomx]

12 minutes ago, mrpj1 said:

How did you "bed in" the new pads? Could they be heat "glazed" because of too much heavy initial braking?

Mainly just easy braking for the first couple of days, then a few hard brakes from 55mph to about 15mph after that. Worst squeal started after the service. The initial squeak was only when coming to a stop, now it's regularly doing it when driving and ceases when braking.

As far as Glazed is concerned, how do I know if it has been ? I think it has, as they feel very shiny and smooth

20 minutes ago, TonyHSD said:

Common mistakes here.

When changing  brake components best practice is to change both disc and pads at the same time, unless the discs are really like new with almost no lip at the end or any rust or scorching. In this case pads like EBC Ultimax with abrasive bed in coating can be used or discs needs to be cleaned with wood sandpaper and wire brush to remove previous shiny coating. Or run on special lathe machine to remove this coating and any eventual contamination. 
When only discs are changed the old brake pads needs to be shaved a bit with rough file to remove top coating., then take it easy for the next few hundreds miles to allow proper bed in process. 
This is where the things likely went wrong and now you either have to replace all again or do the procedures explained above. 

1. Dismantle all brake components 

2. Clean callipers with wire brush and brake cleaner spray 

3. Clean the discs with wire brush and wood sandpaper , brake cleaner to finish 

4. Clean the pads with wire brush and spray

5. Clean hubs with wire brush, spray and make them free from rust and grease. 
6. Lube the pins with silicone grease and put back in all. 

Use only silicone or red rubber grease for the slider pins and dry fit anything else. Do not use any grease or any lubricants between pads, wheel, hubs and bolts. Just clean to bare metal , lube the slider pins , check the pistons return freely. Easy on the brakes as they will be weak as new or even worse. After 200 easy miles  you will have quiet and grippy brakes. 👍

 

Thanks for the information. the discs have no lip from what I can see. They both look identical on either side, and seem to be very clean.

I have attached some pictures.

I'll get a wire brush, I already have the copper grease for the outsides of the pads and the silicone for the sliders. Will give it a go tomorrow

[TonyHSD]

8 minutes ago, mrpj1 said:

How did you "bed in" the new pads? Could they be heat "glazed" because of too much heavy initial braking?

That’s the problem most likely be 👍,. glazing. Could be as a result of a extra heat or simply as a result of changing discs and pads at different times without the cleaning procedures I had explained. 

[TonyHSD]

2 minutes ago, venomx said:

Mainly just easy braking for the first couple of days, then a few hard brakes from 55mph to about 15mph after that. Worst squeal started after the service. The initial squeak was only when coming to a stop, now it's regularly doing it when driving and ceases when braking.

As far as Glazed is concerned, how do I know if it has been ?

Thanks for the information. the discs have no lip from what I can see. They both look identical on either side, and seem to be very clean.

I have attached some pictures.

I'll get a wire brush, I already have the copper grease for the outsides of the pads and the silicone for the sliders. Will give it a go tomorrow

Discs looks good but best to give them a brush and sandpaper run. Same for the pads and dry fit everything, forget about that nasty cooper grease, this will cause more issues than help. Make sure the shims where pads are seated be clean and shiny and the anti vibrations shims behind the pads are all in order and no grease in between. 
The idea here is to make the friction surfaces abrasive again and let the pads create a new proper top coat onto the disc surfaces to prevent further vibrations and noise. 
Here another tip how you can eventually sort the things without dismantling anything. Just wash your car with plenty of water and don’t drive overnight. Leave the discs to get light rust coating and take the car for a short drive next morning, use brakes gently to let the pads clean the rust and bad glaze. It did worked for me few times previously. 👍

[venomx]

1 minute ago, TonyHSD said:

Discs looks good but best to give them a brush and sandpaper run. Same for the pads and dry fit everything, forget about that nasty cooper grease, this will cause more issues than help. Make sure the shims where pads are seated be clean and shiny and the anti vibrations shims behind the pads are all in order and no grease in between. 
The idea here is to make the friction surfaces abrasive again and let the pads create a new proper top coat onto the disc surfaces to prevent further vibrations and noise. 
Here another tip how you can eventually sort the things without dismantling anything. Just wash your car with plenty of water and don’t drive overnight. Leave the discs to get light rust coating and take the car for a short drive next morning, use brakes gently to let the pads clean the rust and bad glaze. It did worked for me few times previously. 👍

Cool Thanks for the useful information. As per my edit above: discs feel very smooth and shiny, so probably glazed. I'll give that wash method a go tonight 🙂

Failing that, which sort of sand paper do you recommend ?

[Cyker]

2 hours ago, venomx said:

When you say heat sheild, do you mean this one ?

 

Yeah that's the heat-shield, but if the squealing stops when you brake then it likely isn't that - The heat-shield is usually the culprit if you get squealing that appears/changes when you steer, whether you're braking or not, but if it goes away when you brake then you probably have whatever my Mk4 has!  

I'm just throwing ideas at the table so most of them will be wrong  

 

[venomx]

39 minutes ago, Cyker said:

Yeah that's the heat-shield, but if the squealing stops when you brake then it likely isn't that - The heat-shield is usually the culprit if you get squealing that appears/changes when you steer, whether you're braking or not, but if it goes away when you brake then you probably have whatever my Mk4 has!  

I'm just throwing ideas at the table so most of them will be wrong  

 

Similar noise you have is it ?

Do you guys recommend liquimoly anti-squeal paste or just re-surfacing the rotors and pads as @TonyHSD suggested ?

which grit sandpaper to use ? I heard 1500 and 2000 is best ??

Also do I re surface both sides of the discs ? Or just the outside which is visible through the alloys

[Stivino]

I recommend taking it all apart, cleaning everything with a wire brush and putting it all back together.  There's no need to sand the pads, or have the discs reground if they aren't worn.  If the job is done properly, there won't be any need for any compounds either.

 

[Cyker]

So my Mk4's brakes sometimes start squealing once they get warmed up, and it also gets worse when you steer in one direction and goes away in the other (Not always the same direction!)

I've concluded it's just a combination of the way the brakes are, and that they aren't getting used enough (The 'problem' with hybrids and EVs is they use regen for most of the braking, and only engage the friction brakes just before you stop, so they don't get scrubbed as much as in a normal car) - I can get rid of it by getting a bit faster then braking more firmly enough for the brakes to complete a couple revolutions of the wheel (Rather than the quarter-ish it usually does), and I've also found this works while reversing, but unless I'm on the motorway or a fast A-road there isn't much opportunity to do that, so when it happens I'm kinda stuck just crawling through traffic going SCREEEEEEEEEEEEE

I'm less bothered because if it's not that, it's the AVAS pedestrian warning sound, so my car is going to be loud and obnoxious to everyone around it at low speed either way  

[venomx]

2 minutes ago, Cyker said:

So my Mk4's brakes sometimes start squealing once they get warmed up, and it also gets worse when you steer in one direction and goes away in the other (Not always the same direction!)

I've concluded it's just a combination of the way the brakes are, and that they aren't getting used enough (The 'problem' with hybrids and EVs is they use regen for most of the braking, and only engage the friction brakes just before you stop, so they don't get scrubbed as much as in a normal car) - I can get rid of it by getting a bit faster then braking more firmly, and I've also found this works while reversing, but unless I'm on the motorway or a fast A-road there isn't much opportunity to do that, so when it happens I'm kinda stuck just crawling through traffic going SCREEEEEEEEEEEEE

Interesting, sounds identical to mine

6 minutes ago, Stivino said:

I recommend taking it all apart, cleaning everything with a wire brush and putting it all back together.  There's no need to sand the pads, or have the discs reground if they aren't worn.  If the job is done properly, there won't be any need for any compounds either.

 

Ya I'll give that a go. So no need for any lubrication then ?

[Stivino]

8 minutes ago, venomx said:

Ya I'll give that a go. So no need for any lubrication then ?

Why would you want to lubricate brakes?  Do you ever see lubricant on new car  brakes?

Only the slide pins need lube.

[Cyker]

1 minute ago, venomx said:

Interesting, sounds identical to mine

Yeah that's why I think the cause might be similar (Whatever it is!  )

In either case, I don't think there's an actual problem to worry about, just the annoying SCREEEEEE.

 

[venomx]

5 minutes ago, Stivino said:

Why would you want to lubricate brakes?  Do you ever see lubricant on new car  brakes?

Only the slide pins need lube.

I thought you use copper lube on the parts of the pad which don't come into contact with the disc ? When i got my car back from the mechanic last week he had put a load of lubricant on the pads were they meet the caliper and on the outside as shown on the pictures above 

[venomx]

24 minutes ago, Stivino said:

Why would you want to lubricate brakes?  Do you ever see lubricant on new car  brakes?

Only the slide pins need lube.

I thought you use copper lube on the parts of the pad which don't come into contact with the disc ? When i got my car back from the mechanic last week he had put a load of lubricant on the pads 

 

If you Google Copper grease on pads some people recommend it. If it's a bad idea then I won't use it

 

Here they put anti squeal paste onto the pads..

 

[Cyker]

There's different schools of thought on that - Some say all the sliding surfaces should be greased up, but others say that just attracts dirt and makes it jam faster and you should just wire-brush the crud off them instead to leave a clean surface.

Usually just the slider pins get greased, but that has to be silicone grease (the rubber cover/boot will get eaten by normal grease), but apparently some types of slider pin explicitly mustn't be greased, so I guess it depends on the design??

Copper-greasing the back of the pads is a ghetto way of stopping them from squealing, but if the pads came with anti-squeal shims they work much better as the grease just risks mess and doesn't actually work that great anyway.

[TonyHSD]

46 minutes ago, venomx said:

I thought you use copper lube on the parts of the pad which don't come into contact with the disc ? When i got my car back from the mechanic last week he had put a load of lubricant on the pads were they meet the caliper and on the outside as shown on the pictures above 

This could be the culprit of your brake issues. Most if not all cars does not come with any lube except slider pins as Stephen mentioned therefore it’s not only no need but the lube will contaminate the friction face of the disc causing vibrations and noise. Dry fit everything, just clean from brake dust and rust. Same for the hubs, wheels etc, absolutely no cooper grease. 
Brake science is way more complicated than it looks and going deeper into detail can teach valuable lessons. I did mine few years ago and this is how I know about these. If you use sandpaper should be for wood silica based , sizes 120 -240 for example. The idea is to clean any possible contamination from pad material or lube as per your case. Wire brush can do it too. 👍

[venomx]

Brilliant thanks guys.

So to clean the brakes all I need is some wire brushes and a bucket ot water, along with some brake cleaning spray. Anything else?