Car cranking but wont start when the engine is warm.

[niksgee]

Hi, 

I am writing to gain insight with good minds. I own two yaris's an early 1999 one built in japan. And an 02 one, that one I have owned for 8 years, it has spent the last 2 in toyota garage. Both are 998cc vvti petrol models.

 

I bought the 99 one as a replacement while my car was in the garage. 

 

The problem - 

Other than I know zero about cars, other than how to drive them.... 

THe 02 car first of all seemed to have difficulty starting. At first I wondered if it was the starter motor. But quickly realised that this problem was intermittent. 

It seems to have a problem starting when the engine is warm. An example, I drove to the garage to buy milk. Car started and drove to the garage fine. I went into the garage to purchase milk. When I got back into my car, despite it drove there fine, it wouldn't restart. I had to leave the car for at least 40 mins before it would start again. 

This happened plenty of times. I would start the car when cold, although slight hesitancy it would start up first time. But when I reached my destination, if I tried the start the car again, it wouldn't although it was cranking. 

Eventually the car was taken by tow truck to Toyota Garage. I was told that they would know how to fix it. Local mechanic were not getting error codes come up, same with the breakdown truck, they couldnt get error codes either. They told me toyota would be able to diagnose. 

I paid toyota to diagnose, it took some time and then they told me that it would need a new ECU....they said they couldn't get one, so I bought the other yaris to get me around. I then had a call they had found ecu and fixed the car... £1,200!!!! Wow.. 

I didnt ask them to do this work, they just went ahead. And now wanted me to take out a credit deal to repay for the work. This felt very wrong. So I didnt. Time passed and eventually I paid I think it was £800 including a new mot. 

I drove the car home, and immediately the same fault happened. I parked in a car park to use the bank, forgot my bank card, so straight back to car. It wouldnt start - again. I called recovery and paid to have a new Battery installed, I thought it was that. It wasn't. So the car was returned to Toyota again, as the same fault was happening.

At first they tried to make out I was lying. Eventually admitting that they trialled and the same problem occurred car stopped 7 times when they were trialling. Nothing was done to fix the problem and they expected me to collect the car. I didnt.... a long time passes again. This time, where I live, my other yaris in November, I wont be able to drive or I will get a fine due to clean air zone.... £9 a day... I wont get a fine if I drive the 02 yaris. 

I call toyota and ask them to do an MOT, if it passes, then to do a full service, I was going to collect the car. Mot was fine. They said that they did a service. I paid another £465.00 collected car. It drove well... was like a brand new car (it only has 42k) next day, the same thing happened. Reversing into a car parking space, it stalled, and then wouldnt start. Later that day I drove to a friends, it started to drive there, but when I got there it wouldnt restart while the engine was warm. I left an hour or so later, returned home. When I got home, the car wouldn't restart while engine warm. I went out to the car later when engine cold... the car started. 

Each time when the car is started the engine is cranking. It also felt like a knocking sound at the rear of the car. So much so the open door was vibrating while I was attempting to turn the car on. 

 

Anyway am sorry this was long. Its been going on a couple of years, most of that time car has been in toyota garage doing nothing. I really want to fix my car. but have no idea how... can anyone help? 

Thank you 

[Yugguy1970]

Howdo.

This might sound a daft question but is the air filter clogged, or the ducting to it.

We had this issue with my dads car,and it turned out to be that.

Other things are various sensors, fuel pump, but it would be useful to know any error codes seen.

Knocking from tbe back could be something as simple as rattly exhaust mounts, especially if the rubber has perished.

[flash22]

It could be any number of things, something is breaking down under heat

A main dealer will not have a clue or give a rats **** of a car of this age, all they want is your money

 

Edit. That sounds like a bad fuel pump

[Cyker]

That sounds weirdly similar to the problem the 2.0L diesel Corollas and Avensis had back in the day - Would start fine when cold, but when the engine was warm it would crank and crank but wouldn't start.

The problem in that case was the starter motor seizing slightly when hot, and replacing it with a redesigned part solved it. (Apparently refurbishing it also solved the problem but the poster didn't leave any details on what 'refurbing it' actually meant!)

It may be the starter is worn out and starting to be affected by heat in a similar way...?

 

[flash22]

In the op's vid the starter sounds fine, weird sound after 5-10 seconds of cranking, like a groan from the rear

@niksgee next time it does it, get out of the car and undo the petrol cap then try to start it

 

 

[Cyker]

13 minutes ago, flash22 said:

In the op's vid the starter sounds fine, weird sound after 5-10 seconds of cranking, like a groan from the rear

@niksgee next time it does it, get out of the car and undo the petrol cap then try to start it

 

 

Funnily enough that's why I mentioned it, as the starter issue with the 1CD-TVs didn't sound any different either; My brother's Corolla had the problem and nobody thought it was the starter as it turned and didn't sound sluggish or anything, but none of the other stuff that got changed (Battery, filters, glow plugs etc.) fixed the problem, except the starter.

I actually got into a mild argument with his mechanic as he said it couldn't possibly be the starter until I showed them the TSB!

(And I only found out about the starter issue because someone posted a TSB on here!  )

 

[niksgee]

52 minutes ago, flash22 said:

In the op's vid the starter sounds fine, weird sound after 5-10 seconds of cranking, like a groan from the rear

@niksgee next time it does it, get out of the car and undo the petrol cap then try to start it

 

 

Yes, good idea I can do that. This morning, it started first thing. Turned engine off, then tried to turn it back on again, it wouldnt start. At last it is displaying an engine light, which if I called RAC could tell me what it is.... I will try that, what would happen though if i turn it on with the petrol cap undone? 

 

Oh another thing... last night was heavy vibration seeming from the rear. I didnt notice it too much today. I did take more videos. 

This has gone on for 2 years. I know toyota thinks its an old car, to me I think FSH and 42k on the clock. I have owned it 8 years. When it isnt not starting... it runs like a new car. Well what i envisage a new car to sound like. 

[niksgee]

5 hours ago, Yugguy1970 said:

Howdo.

This might sound a daft question but is the air filter clogged, or the ducting to it.

We had this issue with my dads car,and it turned out to be that.

Other things are various sensors, fuel pump, but it would be useful to know any error codes seen.

Knocking from tbe back could be something as simple as rattly exhaust mounts, especially if the rubber has perished.

It has just had a full service from toyota would they have changed the air filter? I took it from toyota with new mot, full service, 465.00 lighter in pocket... 

The engine light is now coming on it didnt previously today its being intermittent I am in RAC so could call them to see if the error comes up as a code, it didnt before which is why they charged me a fortune for a new ECU... 

[flash22]

Hopefully if it shows a code that's something to go with, don't forget to write the code down !!

[niksgee]

1 hour ago, flash22 said:

In the op's vid the starter sounds fine, weird sound after 5-10 seconds of cranking, like a groan from the rear

@niksgee next time it does it, get out of the car and undo the petrol cap then try to start it

 

 

I undid the petrol cap, lot of pressure released. It started. Switched the  car off, x 4 it restarted. I thought maybe that was a solution. On 5th attempt it didn't restart.

[flash22]

The tank needs a certain amount of pressure/vacuum to work, so on the 5th time it may have not had enough, did you leave the cap off/open ?

Is the 2002 a French built or a Jap built car ?

 

I think we can narrow it down to the Carbon canister, Vent valve or a pump issue, given the age the canister may be the issue

[Cyker]

If tank vacuum was the problem, wouldn't that cause rough running and 'coughing' under high loads/acceleration,  not just hot start difficulty?

 

[niksgee]

48 minutes ago, flash22 said:

The tank needs a certain amount of pressure/vacuum to work, so on the 5th time it may have not had enough, did you leave the cap off/open ?

Is the 2002 a French built or a Jap built car ?

 

I think we can narrow it down to the Carbon canister, Vent valve or a pump issue, given the age the canister may be the issue

The 02 is French built. 

I think you are right. I just drove to the shop. Reversing out it stalled. I undid the petrol cap, it started again. I drove to shop, it started, when I was returning back, stalled, opened the petrol cap again, it started again. Am unsure if this is a fluke. It gives me some control to get it going again. And am further forward than i was with toyota in 2.5 years. 

 

A terrible secret, I was in a bad place a few years back. I put diesel about a tenner into the tank. First time ever.... I should have called rac.  instead i filled to the top with petrol and carried on going. cutting out began a year later (I think), hard to remember I was going through a lot at the time,  car has been with toyota most of the last 2.5 years. Do you think that might have caused it. 

[niksgee]

1 hour ago, flash22 said:

The tank needs a certain amount of pressure/vacuum to work, so on the 5th time it may have not had enough, did you leave the cap off/open ?

Is the 2002 a French built or a Jap built car ?

 

I think we can narrow it down to the Carbon canister, Vent valve or a pump issue, given the age the canister may be the issue

Oh also, the petrol cap was open, as it struggled to turn, I heard thud thud thud vibration from the rear around the area of the petrol cap.

 

[Derek.w]

Hi I would change starter motor bearings and brushes plus the tank fuel filter.

[FROSTYBALLS]

Moved to the Yaris forum

[Guest]

19 hours ago, niksgee said:

The engine light is now coming on it didnt previously

That could suggest there is a stored fault, or faults. I'm not trying to promote this, but there is a free app. "Torque" for  smartphone which when connected via bluetooth to one of those cheap bluetooth "ELM327" type devices (can be had for as little as £10), plugged in to the diagnostic socket, might retrieve the codes.

If so, that could give some idea as to what the issue(s) are. In no way is it a substiute for a proper diagnosis though.

If that's not an option then I would try other than a Toyota dealer for the diagnosis. They will just throw parts at it (e.g. £1200) in the hope it fixes the issue! As would some independents too.

I would vote or a fuel related problem. Not often right and probably wrong again.

[niksgee]

5 minutes ago, mrpj1 said:

That could suggest there is a stored fault, or faults. I'm not trying to promote this, but there is a free app. "Torque" for  smartphone which when connected via Bluetooth to one of those cheap Bluetooth "ELM327" type devices (can be had for as little as £10), plugged in to the diagnostic socket, might retrieve the codes.

If so, that could give some idea as to what the issue(s) are. In no way is it a substiute for a proper diagnosis though.

If that's not an option then I would try other than a Toyota dealer for the diagnosis. They will just throw parts at it (e.g. £1200) in the hope it fixes the issue! As would some independents too.

I would vote or a fuel related problem. Not often right and probably wrong again.

it had been with toyota for 2.5 years minus a week or two. In that time a new ECU, 2 mots and a full service. I picked it up from there on Friday. 

I am wondering as someone said release the fuel cap and try to start, and that seemed to work, so much pressure inside when I opened the cap. Am thinking of doing a fuel cleaning.... as not tried that before. It might be the fuel pump, why toyota said ecu I dont know. 

[flash22]

Toyota parts fitters just follow what the computer tells them to do - if in doubt, throw a ECU at it

diesel in a petrol should be ok if you topped the tank with good fuel

 

Tank pressure is controlled by a valve and the gasses are collected by a carbon canister

The canister is located in the engine bay on the driver's side and look like this............ (77704-0D011 or 77740-0D011)

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/124645326683

Vent valve aka purge valve - 90910-12247 and looks like this (located near the Battery iirc)

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/125135524218

the fuel filter is on the pump, access via a panel under the back seat

The pump is part number 77020-0D010 - you can get a rebuild kit (pump and filter sock) Delphi FE0799-12B1 around the £50 mark

 

 

[flash22]

1 hour ago, flash22 said:

Vent valve aka purge valve - 90910-12247 and looks like this (located near the battery iirc)

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/125135524218

 

Correction - the valve is on the right side of the air box/filter housing

[corradovr6]

If you have all the receipts from Toyota i would pursue them for a refund of all the unnecessary costs you've incurred which did not solve the problem. You're not there as a trial and error customer to see if something works or not! That's  a huge amount to have forked out to them without having a car running as sweet as can be.

[Cyker]

Worth a go but I wouldn't hold my breath - If they were anything like my dealer they absolutely won't see how unscrupulous what they've done is, and will be absolutely shameless about it.

It was a very similar situation with me, which ended with me getting the Mk4 because the only way I could get the money back from them was by getting it knocked off the price of a new car (Which was Plan B anyway so thankfully it all worked out!). In hindsight I should have pushed for more as I've seen carwow get nearly as much off!! But I effectively got a fully loaded Mk4 for the price of a base-spec one so I can't complain too much...!

 

 

[niksgee]

On 8/22/2022 at 1:59 PM, corradovr6 said:

If you have all the receipts from Toyota i would pursue them for a refund of all the unnecessary costs you've incurred which did not solve the problem. You're not there as a trial and error customer to see if something works or not! That's  a huge amount to have forked out to them without having a car running as sweet as can be.

yes its been a journey. They dont want to give anything the way that they treated me was disgusting. From calling me a liar (despite both times it was taking in by RAC who have record of the problem) to well they didnt diagnose with due care and attention and gave me an ECU that my car did not need which cost a fortune. 

Update is... I put wynns car fuel system cleaner in. Guess what.... so far.... touch wood... the car is starting every time ... or at least it has been today. which is great. I took it for a long drive and it still started again afterwards. if this has fixed it... 13 from Halfords, I used wynns extreme petrol system fuel cleaner. 

[niksgee]

An update as I dont see many updates. 

As a recap toyota had my car almost 2.5 years did nothiing with it, other than replace ecu which didnt need replacing. I picked up after paying for another mot (second it was in there so long) and a FULL service. I wanted to make sure car was ok. First  day it was kind of ok, still cranking before connecting.

 

Day 2 it was back to same old.... the car would not start when warm. Ie when i had been for a drive. A pain when you drive to the shops or anything like that. 

Solution. I dont know if this is final solution for now.... but I put into the car wynns extreme system cleaner (petrol). I put in most of the bottle into half a tank, and put in the rest the next day and topped up. For the first time.... my car had no problems starting. Even after I had been for a drive and engine was warm it hasnt cut out... it is all still fingers crossed.but so far system fuel cleaner has helped well it hasnt had problems starting since. Will this be the solution? I dont know long term.... but I will report back later... as I know how important the acctual outcome can be. 

[TonyHSD]

Just been reading all the posts from beginning and I believe you have had some issues with injectors or something along the fuel lines, supply. When engine is hot and injectors spray a lot of fuel the mixture is so rich that it can burn anymore and all it does is flood the engine with fuel, the knocking and vibration from the rear are likely to be pops from unburnt fuel getting out of exhaust. Wynns are one of the best additives for care on the market. Low mileage cars differs from similar issues. Use more often that fuel additive and take the car for a motorway drive once a month for 40-60min continuous drive. 
Thanks for updating about the problem and solution.