PHEV ICE Vs Electric - its getting closer

[adamtoonarmy]

Announcement this morning of an 80% price energy price rise.

According to the Ofgem website my new cost per KW/Hr will be 52p.

Local garage is 1.69 per litre

Currently getting 3.5m/kwh and 50mpg

That puts cost per mile for electric and ICE level at 15p

Wont be long before I stop charging and run on petrol as January will see another electricity price rise

 

[spicyhotone]

I've created a spreadsheet that helps calculate the relative costs of EV/ICE mode: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_cCbzHOi0Fuu4m32hjAUGXi5tfO9eXt54jYLn1nEk-4/edit?usp=sharing
(Not quite sure how this works, but I think you can make or download a copy so you can change the parameters to fit your own costs/consumption estimates)

[ernieb]

2 minutes ago, spicyhotone said:

I've created a spreadsheet that helps calculate the relative costs of EV/ICE mode: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_cCbzHOi0Fuu4m32hjAUGXi5tfO9eXt54jYLn1nEk-4/edit?usp=sharing
(Not quite sure how this works, but I think you can make or download a copy so you can change the parameters to fit your own costs/consumption estimates)

It's view only there is a request to edit button but I think that will mess up your original. There is a share option but I think that would be on an individual basis rather than a block release.

[spicyhotone]

If you have a google account, you can do "File->Make a copy" which then you should be able to edit. Otherwise, you can do File->Download and open it in any other spreadsheet app

[Broadway One]

2 hours ago, adamtoonarmy said:

Wont be long before I stop charging and run on petrol as January will see another electricity price rise

Mornin' all.....please forgive a trite comment on a serious issue.

Well done Toyota for offering both EV/ICE options in a great motor.

Barry Wright, Lancashire.

  

[Cyker]

Well my Model 3-owning friend says he's now getting charged 60p/kWh to supercharge, which he reckons is about 15p/mile. My most recent tank was £48 and got me 466 miles so I'm now in the lead again!  

 

[nlee]

I am still paying 5p/kWh to charge in the early hours of the morning (and 25.8p/kWh in the day) and will be until the end of November. I am obviously expecting that to increase significantly after my contract ends and estimate it will be around 55p and 10p. At 10p it is still only 2.8p per mile, which is not close to the cost of petrol.

Many question the higher rates for daytime use of these tariffs but from my experience, it only offsets the 4 hours you get of non EV charging base load for 4 hours (16.5% of the day). Moving some of the more expensive household items use to this window by using the delay timers on washing machines, dishwashers and tumble dryer, makes even more savings. My average kWh rate for the last week works out at 14.98p/kWh, which is an overall saving of 49% against the current standard variable rate.

If I were to sign up today for the same tariff for my area (prices vary slightly by area), I could get 42.29p/kWh with 7.5p/kWh for 4 hours. That day time rate might look unattractive against the current standard tariff but it is guaranteed for the next 12 months so beats the expected October rate increase (plus any further increases in January and the Spring) and any fixed rate I can see, hands down. You have to prove you have an EV or PHEV, or one on order, and you have to have a SMETS2 or certain SMETS1 smart meter but if you meet the criteria, it seems a no brainer to me. If some miracle happens in the meantime, there is no penalty to change tariffs or leave.

[adamtoonarmy]

7 hours ago, nlee said:

I am still paying 5p/kWh to charge in the early hours of the morning (and 25.8p/kWh in the day) and will be until the end of November. I am obviously expecting that to increase significantly after my contract ends and estimate it will be around 55p and 10p. At 10p it is still only 2.8p per mile, which is not close to the cost of petrol.

Many question the higher rates for daytime use of these tariffs but from my experience, it only offsets the 4 hours you get of non EV charging base load for 4 hours (16.5% of the day). Moving some of the more expensive household items use to this window by using the delay timers on washing machines, dishwashers and tumble dryer, makes even more savings. My average kWh rate for the last week works out at 14.98p/kWh, which is an overall saving of 49% against the current standard variable rate.

If I were to sign up today for the same tariff for my area (prices vary slightly by area), I could get 42.29p/kWh with 7.5p/kWh for 4 hours. That day time rate might look unattractive against the current standard tariff but it is guaranteed for the next 12 months so beats the expected October rate increase (plus any further increases in January and the Spring) and any fixed rate I can see, hands down. You have to prove you have an EV or PHEV, or one on order, and you have to have a SMETS2 or certain SMETS1 smart meter but if you meet the criteria, it seems a no brainer to me. If some miracle happens in the meantime, there is no penalty to change tariffs or leave.

Well i cannot get a single supplier to offer me an EV rate. Some allow you to run a quote but none are interested in signing you up.

[nlee]

1 minute ago, adamtoonarmy said:

Well i cannot get a single supplier to offer me an EV rate. Some allow you to run a quote but none are interested in signing you up.

You cannot sign up to an EV tariff online with the eight legged pink creature at the moment, but contact them by DM on Twitter and you will. You have to sign up on the variable tariff first, then transfer once the account is set up and they have confirmed they are getting smart meter readings.

[adamtoonarmy]

3 minutes ago, nlee said:

You cannot sign up to an EV tariff online with the eight legged pink creature at the moment, but contact them by DM on Twitter and you will. You have to sign up on the variable tariff first, then transfer once the account is set up and they have confirmed they are getting smart meter readings.

Thanks will give that a try

[TonyHSD]

Well, I have seen that coming, and been saying that the best cars currently are self charging hybrids by Toyota and they might be better future proof than Bev or even phev. Sadly their prices went too high, luckily I have one already and does 60+ mpg, happy days 🏎😅

https://apple.news/A0VgJX1dDS-mPhAJ94ZR0vQ

[adamtoonarmy]

4 hours ago, TonyHSD said:

Well, I have seen that coming, and been saying that the best cars currently are self charging hybrids by Toyota and they might be better future proof than Bev or even phev. Sadly their prices went too high, luckily I have one already and does 60+ mpg, happy days 🏎😅

https://apple.news/A0VgJX1dDS-mPhAJ94ZR0vQ

Thing is I originally went for a quote on the HEV but it was almost £150 PCM more expensive under the NHS lease scheme than the PHEV. Hence I went for the latter. 50mpg when running as a HEV and 12,000 miles per year still makes the PHEV a cheaper option for me than the HEV even if the latter got an extra 10mpg and I run entirely on the ICE

[NASY]

Great shame for the move to being greener. EVs will struggle to sell if they cost more to run than petrol cars. I guess given the way the price of electricity hits not only private customers but businesses too that we will need a change of pricing structure to reduce bills all-round, no amount of targeted subsidies will deal with the fundamental issue of energy just being more expensive than it really should be and knock on effects in food and everything else. As we've been here before it should be on record what needs to be done?

[Cyker]

TBH EVs aren't significantly 'greener' - Every new car is a net negative in terms of pollution.

It takes many years of use for them to even break even to resources, energy etc. used to create them vs an old car.

They will sell better when they can comprehensively beat ICE cars on merit, like diesel did vs petrol, but at the moment they're not there yet.

 

[Derek.w]

I was reading today that when the electric price rises on 1/September then cost of electric verses petrol will be the same per mile.

But regarding polution electric wins hands down that is without taking into account polution caused by manifacturing the vehicle in the first place.

[Hayzee]

12 hours ago, Derek.w said:

I was reading today that when the electric price rises on 1/September then cost of electric verses petrol will be the same per mile.

But regarding polution electric wins hands down that is without taking into account polution caused by manifacturing the vehicle in the first place.

The new Kwh cap is 52p from 1st October which, depending on your MPG, could make Electricity more expensive than petrol. I know some people are currently on fixed and or low overnight rates but I suspect that before long the majority of PHEV drivers will be finding it cheaper to run on the ICE. Expectation is a further 33% increase in January which could push up the Kwh rate to around 69p and create a cost chasm between running on electricity and ICE.

I have a PHEV and currently run 90%+ of my miles as an EV. Interested to know if PHEV owners will continue to plug in if it incurs a 30%+ premium? I love running it as an EV so will probably continue to do so, as long as the delta doesn't increase much more in 2023.

[ernieb]

Colin, it’s a calculation and speculation that I’ve been doing recently. I just love the EV driving locally, quiet and smooth so my heart and part of my head says keep using EV.

I have also been considering winter local trips, the couple of miles to the supermarket trips. Whilst the winter EV range will be reduced so will the ICE and of course the ICE will hardly have time to warm up before it is being switched off the economy in this situation can not be very good at all? Maybe a good compromise would be to charge the traction Battery and set the car to Auto HEV mode?

[philip42h]

1 hour ago, Hayzee said:

a cost chasm between running on electricity and ICE

This is beginning to sound like a very middle class, 21st century, problem ... 😉

So we have PHEV owners who are wealthy enough to afford a PHEV and who are able to benefit from reduced cost "EV tariffs" even though the PHEV isn't a BEV worrying about a choice that only they have as whether to run their vehicles on petrol or electricity!

We should be, and probably are if the truth be told, more concerned with the predicament of lower earners - especially those who still have electric storage heating.

Either way, none of us can really have expected EVs to continue to be subsidised, or remain 'cheap' to run, in the medium to long term surely?

[Hayzee]

24 minutes ago, philip42h said:

So we have PHEV owners who are wealthy enough to afford a PHEV and who are able to benefit from reduced cost "EV tariffs"

The increased cost of all prime time Kwh (with an EV tariff if you can get one) isn't a great trade off when your traction Battery is only 18Kwh, but is a real positive for a BEV with a 70Kwh Battery.

25 minutes ago, philip42h said:

We should be, and probably are if the truth be told, more concerned with the predicament of lower earners - especially those who still have electric storage heating.

 

Agree with your sentiment. One issue that irritates me is that renewable elctricity (which is currently around 45% of total UK grid input) is also charged at the same wholesale rate as gas fuel generated electricity even though it has no link to the vastly increased cost of gas.

26 minutes ago, philip42h said:

none of us can really have expected EVs to continue to be subsidised

Not sure how my PHEV is subsidised?

[philip42h]

1 hour ago, Hayzee said:

2 hours ago, philip42h said:

none of us can really have expected EVs to continue to be subsidised

Not sure how my PHEV is subsidised?

I did say "EVs" rather than Colin's PHEV ... 😉

The Government subsidies on EVs never applied to PHEVs and have pretty much disappeared anyway.

You still qualify for special EV tariffs which others don't - it wasn't long ago that had I had an EV (and not bothered to use it at all) I could have had all my electricity for 75% of the price I was / am currently paying. I'm not sure that I can see, or energy companies can justify, the continuation of EV tariffs beyond the current "crisis".

I don't know whether yours is a private or company car, but the tax treatment of company PHEVs is unduly favourable. Arguably not a "subsidy" as such but overdue "reform".

But it's just my view ... 😉

[ernieb]

I thought that there were originally grants for PHEV’s which were withdrawn in Oct 2018?

[Lawnmowerman]

With the Bz4x enforced non-availability allied to the surging costs of electricity, does it render it still-born?

Had it been available from the initial launch date it could have been one of the scarcest vehicles on the road if Toyota withdrew it thereafter - stranger things..........

[Hayzee]

1 hour ago, philip42h said:

I don't know whether yours is a private or company car, but the tax treatment of company PHEVs is unduly favourable. Arguably not a "subsidy" as such but overdue "reform".

Phillip my PHEV is private. And I fully agree that BIK for PHEV's is unduly favourable particularly as a recent survey discovered that the vast majority of business PHEV drivers (this forum excluded if course!) never plug in their vehicle.

[NASY]

Philip, you're right when you speak of 21st Century middle class problems. Given that some of us in the middle classes would never have privatised utilities or transport as they provide essential services like policing, military and health care then it's okay to talk about our other problems, albeit being conscious of the relative gravity with respect to the problems facing people with fewer choices. In wider car terms reliability and dependability are always the most important factors to consider before all else yet people still pitch for JLR, Stellantis, Ferrari etc so somehow explains how we got here maybe with our crazy essential services prohibitive costs.

[adamtoonarmy]

I would like to make a few further points after reading the replies above.

• I am not middle class
• I could not afford to purchase a RAV4 PHEV or HEV through any other means than the NHS salary sacrifice scheme. 
• I could only afford one through the NHS scheme because the PHEV was so much cheaper than the HEV through that scheme
• I couldn't give a flying fig about being green or the environment
• My view is that lower earners of folks that have fewer choices are no concern of mine. The responsibility for making sure everyone lives above the poverty line and has their basic human rights met lies with the government, not me. Its my responsibility not to vote for the idiots that don't do that. Like the current incumbents for example.
• As soon as electricity is 1p a mile higher than petrol I will be switching exclusively to the latter.

The original point was around costs of petrol Vs electricity £ and the closing gap, it does seem to have gone off topic slightly.