Steering issue with 2006 City Bug.

[DerekHa]

Hi Bob,

Thanks for the diagram of the strut/suspension parts.

I wasn't trying to pull the strut out of the car. Never got anywhere near that stage. Just trying to release the nut on top of the suspension turret so I could then remove the strut and road spring together.

My understanding is/was that the very top nut and the steel cup washer and rubber hold the strut in place in the vehicle and the other 17mm nut below that is the one that actual holds the spring under compression. Or have I got that all wrong?

One I notice on that diagram is that there are different 17mm nuts for the RH and LH!

Oh **** are these left hand threads, or at least the one on the n/s? That could explain nothing moving! Talk about lefty loosey and righty tighty if thats what I was trying!!

                                                     XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

[DerekHa]

Hi Bob,

Thanks for the diagram of the strut/suspension parts.

I wasn't trying to pull the strut out of the car. Never got anywhere near that stage. Just trying to release the nut on top of the suspension turret so I could then remove the strut and road spring together.

My understanding is/was that the very top nut and the steel cup washer and rubber hold the strut in place in the vehicle and the other 17mm nut below that is the one that actually holds the spring under compression on the strut. Or have I got that all wrong?

One thing I notice on that diagram is that there are different 17mm nuts for the RH and LH! MMmm.

Oh **** are these left hand threads, or at least the one on the n/s? That could explain nothing moving! Talk about lefty loosey and righty tighty if thats what I was trying!!

                                                     XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

[flash22]

My mistake, it's a top plate and nut isn't it, not a studded top plate

lefty loosy, righty tighty

popping the strut out of the knuckle will help

[DerekHa]

Phewww, Big sigh of relief here Bob!

Thought I'd been tightening what I should have been loosening for a while there Bob.

No stud plate just the one 17mm nut is all, am sure three or four studs would be easier to get off though.

If or when I have the top nut moving I'll set about getting the strut out of the knuckle. Didn't want to disturbed other parts when there was no need as couldn't proceed.

Thanks for posting back quickly though Bob, saved me a night of worry, will sleep easier now. Having a week away from Friday so shan't be tackling the C1 again until early October and I should have that impact wrench too, hoping that will move those nuts. Had briefly considered heating the nuts but am certain it would wreck the rubbers and plastics beneath.

[flash22]

had a look in the service manual

 

all it says is.

 

Using a socket hexagon wrench, fix the shock absorber rod and remove the nut and front shock absorber with coil spring

[DerekHa]

Hi Bob.

Started on the n/s, didn't have a socket hexagon wrench so tried with my H6 Allen key which began to give and twist, went to a Torx 40 key which snapped in there. Drilled the broken piece out but the hex is now basically fudged up so ended up trying locking grips on the shock absorber rod/shaft in the wheel arch.

Tried on the o/s after I found a set of 1/2" Hex socket adaptors in the shed and my breaker bar on a 17mm socket. That snapped as well! Could only get the upper part of that thing out with a carbide drill. So both n/s and o/s hex's in the shocker absorber rods are sh***ed. Need to get a new carbide drill to get the last piece of the broken bit out, not sure Ill get anything to bite in either now!

Only option I have now is the impact wrench I'm waiting on, may be working against locking grips lower down the shock rod but above the point of maximum travel. Have read the rods are very hard chromed steel and unlikely to mark doing this (I hope)!

Only alternative is heating with a gas torch but resisting that as it'll mean all the rubber/plastics will melt! Toying with the idea of using a kettle of boiling water in stead of a torch.

Really appreciate your input though Bob.

 

 

[flash22]

Just an idea - split/cut the nut off ?? Punch a few spots on the nut and drill it

[DerekHa]

Good idea Bob, it might come to that if nothing else works!

[DerekHa]

Hi all,

Back again! I finally succeeded with those top nuts having had a week away in Cornwall and fitting having to do other bits and pieces.

The only thing that worked was the impact wrench, rattle gun, that I bought off flea bay. Oh, not forgetting a huge pair of curved jaw mole grips, all of 30cm long that I clamped onto the the shock absorber shaft under the wheel arch. Didn't bother drilling out the broken hardened steel hex drive I snapped nor drilling through the nut either.

Usual game with getting the struts out of the hub carriers, big hammer, pentrating oil and lots of jiggling at the end but made sure I left the top nut and washer there to keep the strut in the turret until the strut was free of the hub carrier.

Found that the passenger side strut top bearing had seperated and the rubber top mount itself appeared to have been compressed when compared with the new Febi replacements and noticed signs of the bearing and shaft having worn away some the underside of the rubber top mount.

My old but little used spring compressors worked a treat though second nut also proved difficult to shift but the impact wrench and big grips did the job.

More pushing, shoving and jiggling to get the strut back into the hub carrier followed by hammering to get the strut fully home.

Did the drivers side in the same fashion, changed the top mount and bearing again, impact wrench needed again with the locking grips and the lump hammer. No signs of that mount and bearing being worn. More of struggle getting the bottom of that strut back into the hub carrier but it finally went in and lots more bashing with trusty hammer.

Was dubious when I bought the impact wrench as there was little to identify it's make, was assured it was an old original Makita (all metal case) . Turns out it is and what a god send it turned out to be along with the huge mole grips.

Had purchased a pair of droplinks, those on the car had advisary's from recent MOT's but once I had the 1st link off noticed that it was of a slightly different design to the originals even though the image on flea bay was an exact match for what I needed, too many cup washers and non with what I'd describe as a collar to locate it in the track control arm. Have arranged a return and found exactly what I needed from a local motorfactors which i fitted today.

Then down to the alignment people for another check. Not straight forward as their machine was now showing both rear wheels well out of track! They couldn't explain why it should have changed so much but did the front tracking for free. They suggested taking the car to another local garage who could check also.  Driving away found the steering wheel was off centre, where as it had still been ok before they had their hands on the car.

Went to another place, part of the same group but with more basic laser equipment, their check didn't highlight the rear wheels being out of track but showed up the front wheels both being a good deal out. Not charged for the tracking to be redone, for obvious reasons. The steering wheel is central now and the toe figures are with in spec now. Car feels better to on the road.

Having said that both front wheels now have what I would say is too much caster angle according to the first aligners I called at today. Have my doubts about their machine needing recalibrating or their man not knowing his job properly due to the strange toe angles etc they reecorded. They did ask me to get back to them if another garage reported very differnent findings.

Have been thinking about how the first place went about their alignment, different chap to the first time, and have a feeling he didn't remove the wheel trims but fitted his gauges over them, sure the first time it was checked they removed all four wheel trims. Could that account for the strange unexpected rear toe and front angles being so far out?

 

[flash22]

Thanks for the update

You can have the best of the best equipment, if you don't know how to use it's worthless

a few Aygo owners have had their cars on rack, and they tried to align it using the Toyota WIGO specs

never had much luck with the big chains, i wouldn't let them loose with a lawn mower, let alone a car

 

find a garage with a hunter or John bean 4 wheel alignment rack

[Cyker]

I had that in my cheap tyre place - The muppet doing the alignment hadn't centred the steering wheel properly while doing it so it was well off to one side!

I've stopped letting them do the alignment as they have cocked it up more times than they have gotten it right!

 

[Puglet]

Same here, they did the alignment with the steering lock on rather using the special seat centering device, so soon drove back to get that sorted. 

 

[DerekHa]

Thanks for the replies Bob, Steve and Cyker.

Hadn't heard of John Bean alignment, not a real petrol head! Looking online the only place that use a John Bean machine locally are the people I used to do the 1st and the 2nd adjustment the other day which gave that strange read out.

Years back in Solihull I found a independent tyre fitters to be very good. They used the Hunter alignment equipment. Was back when I had a Mazda 3 and then a Signum, both cars had adjustment on the rear wheels.

Always had to book with them as they where on a local High St and busy all day. Was lucky the once as the Hunter rep was there calibrating their machine and helped get my Mazda 3 wheels tweeked just right, I'd fitted adjustable rear camber arms due to excessive rear tyre wear.

 

[DerekHa]

Here's their printout after they finished.

[Cyker]

TBH the most important thing is the person doing it - Even the Hunter system won't give good alignment if the person operating it hasn't a clue what they're doing.

Conversely, I've seen people set up cars with bits of cardboard and string and get a better alignment than I've had at that garage I mentioned with their fancy laser setup!  

 

[flash22]

Is the wheel/tire size correct on that last pic

i would give it 1000 miles to let the front end bed in the re visit it

that rear toe looks like they **** up, setting the car up on the rack

i take it you checked the tire pressures

 

[DerekHa]

Hi Bob,

Not with the car now so can't physically check but it's the same size as quoted on the alignment report from back in May. The cars the bog standard model and that size is correct for that.

Yes those rear toe figures screamed out to me when he came back with the initial printout (which I haven't posted). Told them the car was driving OK now and that I thought the rear being out like that would affect the handling which it wasn't! I'm sure they ****ed up, like you say. Wondering if it was a case of "the rear isn't adjustable" so ignored the readings and just tracked up the front end, not very well at that and not very professional. The manager who was there back in May was very good I thought but he's off sick currently and one of the mechanics is standing in for him.

I didn't check the tyre pressures before hand but I checked them all a couple of weeks ago.

Will take sometime to get another 1000 on the clock as it's just her little run around but will do as you suggest.

[DerekHa]

Been quite a while but another update on this saga with the steering issue.

Changing the top mounts and bearings on both front struts made a notable difference to the general feel of the steering, instead of what I'd discribe as a notchy feeling when driving the steering became a lot more free over the full range from lock to lock. However the steering still wouldn't return fully to the 12 o'clock position when driving but a big improvement compared with how it was.

Kept looking at the difference in the castor angles on the nearside compared offside front wheels. Put off doing anything until more clement weather so recently bought a brand new pair of lower control arms from eBay. Didn't go for a known brand but purchased through Energised Customs who I,ve used before and found to be very good and get good reports.

Got the old control arms off with a bit of prying and hammering. Compared them directly with the replacements and there seemed to no visible difference between old and new with the exception that the rear rubber bushings on the old arms had lots of fissures in them. Got both arms replaced, the drivers side seemed more of a mare to get back and bushings aligned before I could get everything bolted back up again.

Test driven and the car didn't seem a whole lot different to before I started but took the thing back to the Hunter alignment garage to have it checked again. Glad I did as the geometery had changed a fair bit. Once the front was tracked the report shows that now both offside and nearside castor angles are well within spec. The steering now seems to a lot more free over the full range of steering.

But the car still doesn't self centre as it should! Comes back to around 10 o'clock out of a left hand turn and about 1 o'clock out of a right turn. Had come across someone on a rival forum, 'c1oc', who had been having the same exact problem and syptoms back in 2020. He was wouldn't accept this was just how the car was and kept looking into the cause. Eventually he invested in Techstream diagnostic software and found that the car had a C1542 DTC stored, . His vehicle was a similar aged Aygo to the C1 I'm trying to sort. Once he'd got his head around the code and couldn't find anything actually amiss, using the Techstream he cleared the C1542 code and the steering was back to normal and self centring as it should. The C1542 code is described as a vehicle speed singal malfunction which I think is stored in the power steering module.

The pwer steering seems to work fine on the C1 which fits with the above, so suspect that the same DTC is stored but can't read it with my bargain basement OBD2 scanner. Have recently found a local retired auto electrician who still does a bit to keep his hand in and has good recommenations and doesn't charge the earth. Intending to get the car to him in the next few weeks, when I can pry the car away from my partner that is, and hopefully get the lack of self centring finally sorted. Suspect the something has happened in the past, possibley the geometry being all over the place that has caused the DTC to be stored. Seems if this C1542 code is stored the power steering sets to a default of 62mph causing a lack of normal steering self centring.

 

[flash22]

You can use the manual flash method to read the codes from the EPS

ignition off, link 2 pins, turn the ignition on and count the flashes (2 digit code)

 

A few issues will set the EPS to Default mode

 

[DerekHa]

39 minutes ago, flash22 said:

You can use the manual flash method to read the codes from the EPS

ignition off, link 2 pins, turn the ignition on and count the flashes (2 digit code)

 

A few issues will set the EPS to Default mode

 

Thanks for this excellent tip Bob! Had no idea that this method was available for the City Bugs. Had used something similar years ago on a much older motor, possibley a Vauxhall but can't be sure now.

WIll be giving this a try when I can have the car to work on again, sometime next week hopefully.

Do you have information on what codes this would likely show up? Also is there a means of clearing the stored code, if there are any, withoiut having to use something like Techstream? I've tried several suggested methods of disconnecting the Battery and cycling the ignition etc to discharge any residual charge in the ECU etc but that had no real effect.

[flash22]

There is a list, but i don't have access at the mo

if you post the code(s) i can look them up

has the steering wheel ever been off for a stalk replacement etc.

 

Edit, Here you go, i must have uploaded them in the past

kgb10 eps test.pdfkgb10 eps zero point.pdf

[DerekHa]

Thanks again Flash.

Have only had the car for about 18 months and the Steering wheel has never been touched in that time, can't speak for what may have been prior to ownership of course. The stalk seems to be fine with no issues.

Will be having a browse through the PDF's you uploaded, cheers Bob.

[DerekHa]

17 hours ago, flash22 said:

There is a list, but i don't have access at the mo

if you post the code(s) i can look them up

has the steering wheel ever been off for a stalk replacement etc.

 

Edit, Here you go, i must have uploaded them in the past

kgb10 eps test.pdf 88.81 kB · 3 downloads kgb10 eps zero point.pdf 117.42 kB · 5 downloads

Hi Bob,

Had at look through the two PDF's you kindly sent me. Reading them both they refer to connecting an intelligent tester and also shorting the OBD2 terminal 13 along with 4 and 12 as you've described for doing the manual flash test to read any stored codes. Both documents show making use of the menu's of the tester which of course I don't have.

I take it that the intelligent tester will be a Toyota compatible OBD2 reader/scanner with full diagnostics and I only have on my basic but useful Aldi scanner.

WIll I need the use of something along the lines of Techstream to be able to clear any codes or is a re-calibration of the power steering module most likely needed again needing Techstream?

[flash22]

 it shows both methods, one with the OEM IT tool and the manual way take note of the headings

 

The codes self clear once the issue is resolved or after 10-15 key cycles

 

 

[DerekHa]

On 7/1/2023 at 1:12 PM, flash22 said:

 it shows both methods, one with the OEM IT tool and the manual way take note of the headings

 

The codes self clear once the issue is resolved or after 10-15 key cycles

 

 

Thanks again Bob!

Now you've pointed me in the right direction I can see the section that details doing this. Was a case of initial information overload I admit.

One thing I note is that the PDF's say to short terminal 4(CG) to 12(TS) and also 4(CG to 13(TC). In your recent reply you say to short terminal 4 (CG) to 12 (TS) only. Should I follow the PDF instruction and also short 4(CG) to 13(TC) as well or is that connection not needed for what I'm trying achieve?

I can make the SST cheek wire myself using some thin gauge wire I have, that at least seems to be a simple DIY job.

Really appreciate your in depth knowledge and guidance on subjects like this!