2022 RAV4 stolen

[flash22]

If you read the Toyota T&C they have no liability for theft of a vehicle - legally you would have to prove the issue is a design flaw and for that you would have to have a specialist investigate the problem at your cost - what takes time and money without the 100's of hours of legal costs, Barristers are not cheap

Car manufactures have a percentage point they need to reach before taking action, anything below that is allowable loss, the problem is on a brand specific forum you will always get a concentrated high number of owners what make it look like a common problem, out in the wild at dealer level they may not even see 1 case

Take the Cat theft problems of the last few years, it took the aftermarket to come up with a way of protecting the Cat, then the dealers started to fit them, no doubt someone will come up with a plate to protect the loom/headlight on the Rav4

[Strangely Brown]

44 minutes ago, mobi said:

Manufacturers may not always foresee design faults, which is acceptable. However, when they refuse to set this right when multiple owners suffer same problem, then it becomes regrettable. 

Perhaps Toyota should do a recall to apply a fix to all cars which suffer from this.
 

I am not aware that Toyota has "refused" to set this right. If a fix is possible, and applicable retrospectively, then I am sure that it will appear as soon as it is available.

[A chapin]

I’m new to this community having been searching for security tips for my RAV4 having had it stolen 6 weeks ago. It was recovered with only minor damage the following day but was not where the MyT app said it was.
The thieves had disconnected the tracking device in the roof module and then moved the car again. The fns light had been disconnected as in this thread first report. The keys were in a Faraday box at the back of my house. 
BUT … the car security system had been ‘downloaded’ a few days earlier while I queued for petrol at a Sainsbury’s store in a nearby town. While I was in the car and then filling up! The guy had followed me through back streets, pulled along side me and then behind me and then drove off without fuel. 
The MyT app registered no more of my remaining journey and said that my car was in motion at that filling station for the following four days despite being parked 120 miles away. After returning home the car was stolen. It sounds crazy but after talking it through with police and the insurance repair engineer, I understand that it is something that they are seeing more of.  The keys and the car have been reprogrammed so that if the thieves still have the coding on their very clever kit they can’t just drive away again. 
It’s being returned from the repair shop next week. 
Does anyone have advice on making it more secure please?

[forkingabout]

Toyota / Lexus should get on the ball & come up with a retrofit protection plate to stop thieves using the CAN invader theft method.

Someone inside Toyota / Lexus should have information on which products are being targeted by this theft method.

Going forward hopefully the newer product designs will have the security system on a separate network not accessible to attack - maybe also cover the interior bonnet release pull with the interior door trim like Peugeot do - door has to be open to access the bonnet pull, would mean a thief would have to defeat the deadlocks via the door lock barrel.

Making the OBD port harder to get to unless the deadlocked driver's door is open would also help slow thieves down.

It seems Toyota / Lexus upgrading the keyless fobs to include motion sensing to switch them off has caused the vehicle thieves to up there game now the relay theft method has been defeated.

[FROSTYBALLS]

40 minutes ago, A chapin said:

Does anyone have advice on making it more secure please?

The standard police advice is to use a steering wheel lock. Something properly tested and approved by either Sold Secure or Secured by Design - currently either the Disklok or Milenco High Security steering wheel lock.

https://www.soldsecure.com/product/disklok-steering-wheel-lock

https://www.soldsecure.com/product/milenco-high-security-steering-wheel-lock

[Strangely Brown]

A Chapin's theft does not sound like a CAN invader attack. The sequence of events sounds like straightforward key cloning by grabbing the signal while it was being used in the petrol station. Once they have the signal they would write it to a blank keyfob and then just drive the car away when ready. The original keys in the Faraday box appear to be irrelevant in this case and there is no mention of any damage around the headlight.

[philip42h]

7 minutes ago, Strangely Brown said:

A Chapin's theft does not sound like a CAN invader attack. The sequence of events sounds like straightforward key cloning by grabbing the signal while it was being used in the petrol station. Once they have the signal they would write it to a blank keyfob and then just drive the car away when ready. The original keys in the faraday box appear to be irrelevant in this case and there is no mention of any damage around the headlight.

Andrew's post needs reading twice ... 😉

1 hour ago, A chapin said:

I’m new to this community having been searching for security tips for my RAV4 having had it stolen 6 weeks ago. It was recovered with only minor damage the following day but was not where the MyT app said it was.
The thieves had disconnected the tracking device in the roof module and then moved the car again. The fns light had been disconnected as in this thread first report. The keys were in a faraday box at the back of my house. 
BUT … the car security system had been ‘downloaded’ a few days earlier while I queued for petrol at a Sainsbury’s store in a nearby town. While I was in the car and then filling up! The guy had followed me through back streets, pulled along side me and then behind me and then drove off without fuel. 
The MyT app registered no more of my remaining journey and said that my car was in motion at that filling station for the following four days despite being parked 120 miles away. After returning home the car was stolen. ...

So it would appear that the car was taken from outside his home via a CAN bus attack ...

The happenings at Sainsbury's are supplemental and rather less clear ... it could just be a case of the final step of the journey not being recorded - we've all had experience of that - and the "following home" was simply an easy way to discover where the car lived ... ?

[mobi]

This issue has been reported in other RAV4 forums. Currently it seems Japan and UK are seeing highest number of RAV4 stolen in this way. Although, Lexus being stolen worldwide using this method. 

There are 3 things one need to remember (those who have RAV4 or thinking of buying one)

1. Your car can be stolen under 5 minutes.
2. You can only prevent this if you have secondary protection like steering locks.
3. If you can't be bothered with #2, then don't buy this generation of RAV4

[forkingabout]

26 minutes ago, Strangely Brown said:

A Chapin's theft does not sound like a CAN invader attack. The sequence of events sounds like straightforward key cloning by grabbing the signal while it was being used in the petrol station. Once they have the signal they would write it to a blank keyfob and then just drive the car away when ready. The original keys in the faraday box appear to be irrelevant in this case and there is no mention of any damage around the headlight.

Why was the fns light disconnected then?

1 hour ago, A chapin said:

The fns light had been disconnected as in this thread first report.

UK Rav 4 has a Thatcham category 1 factory fitted alarm & immobiliser.

You cannot grab the code transmitted from the keyless fob & then use it at a later date as the security system rolls the code each time.

You would have to crack the security algorithm for the immobiliser to work out the next code, not impossible & has been done in the past for other vehicle manufacturers but there are far easier ways.

You can use the relay theft method on older keyless fobs as the vehicle would be expected the code the fob is transmitting - the relay method just increases the reception range between vehicle & fob.

[Strangely Brown]

Apologies. I missed fns as being Front Near Side.
Forget what I said.
As you were.
 

[DerekHa]

Just an old gits thoughts.

Seems that the more electronics, complicated and connected vehicles become then the easier it becomes for them Bad B******s to help themselves to whatever they like. Have been driving since the early 70's and served in the Police from 1980 to 2006. Car theives were always were always top of my list.

Car theives have always been around and always will be. I'm getting on now and can remember my Dad having his 850 Mini stolen from outside the house overnight! Not a happy man as I recall but he got it back after the Police found it a few days later. After that he resorted to several means to thawt the B******s, took the rotor arm out of the distributor everytime he left it parked, also fitted a cut off switch to the electric fuel pump the Mini had. They had the car away again after he stopped removing the rotor arm but they only got 200 yards to the bottom of the hill as it ran out of fuel! He got into the habit of turning the fuel pump off just before he got home so there was little left in the system. He also bought one of the original steering locks, a Krooklock I think, not as effective as the devices available now I might add.

May be an old school fuel cut off switch fitted to any vehicle thats a big target for them Bad B******s might help you keep your all singing and dancing fully connected prides and joys. Would think that it's a fairly easy DIY solution still, all vehicles now have electric fuel pumps, they didn't then, and it's only a matter of running a couple of wires to a basic switch that you hide away where only you know it's there. They might be able to unlock the car and switch the ignition on but NO FUEL NO GO!

Having said all that if they really really want it they'll find away to get it, carjacking or towing it away. All you can do is make life difficult for the B******s.

[Nick72]

9 minutes ago, DerekHa said:

Just an old gits thoughts.

Seems that the more electronics, complicated and connected vehicles become then the easier it becomes for them Bad B******s to help themselves to whatever they like. Have been driving since the early 70's and served in the Police from 1980 to 2006. Car theives were always were always top of my list.

Car theives have always been around and always will be. I'm getting on now and can remember my Dad having his 850 Mini stolen from outside the house overnight! Not a happy man as I recall but he got it back after the Police found it a few days later. After that he resorted to several means to thawt the B******s, took the rotor arm out of the distributor everytime he left it parked, also fitted a cut off switch to the electric fuel pump the Mini had. They had the car away again after he stopped removing the rotor arm but they only got 200 yards to the bottom of the hill as it ran out of fuel! He got into the habit of turning the fuel pump off just before he got home so there was little left in the system. He also bought one of the original steering locks, a Krooklock I think, not as effective as the devices available now I might add.

May be an old school fuel cut off switch fitted to any vehicle thats a big target for them Bad B******s might help you keep your all singing and dancing fully connected prides and joys. Would think that it's a fairly easy DIY solution still, all vehicles now have electric fuel pumps, they didn't then, and it's only a matter of running a couple of wires to a basic switch that you hide away where only you know it's there. They might be able to unlock the car and switch the ignition on but NO FUEL NO GO!

Having said all that if they really really want it they'll find away to get it, carjacking or towing it away. All you can do is make life difficult for the B******s.

Had a second hand Cavalier SRI around 1992. Heavily modified to an astronomical 160 to 170hp LOL! That had a switch installed which may have even been by default. But it still got stolen twice albeit left between 20 and 100 yards from where I parked it. Mostly blocking the road. It's the smashed window (one occasion) and the faff sorting it out with the insurance company and the bobbies. Big visible deterrent probably best.

Had my AMG Merc broken into a few years back outside my house. Nice part of town. End of a quiet cul de sac. They couldn't start it. Must have been 2 or 3 of them as there was snot all over the backs of the seats in there. Nice. They made off with about 2 quid in change that was hidden in the centre console.

Thing I worry about the most is being away somewhere in scallyville and someone stealing the catalytic converter. Seems to be popular.

[Cyker]

I just find the ingenuity of the thieves impressive; If they would only use that ability for something more constructive to society!

It feels like the time it takes to steal a car has stayed fairly constant throughout the ages, from the old bash the lock in with a screw driver and hot-wire the ignition or weird ones like the hazard light trick on an old Vauxhall Nova, to this pull the wheel arch out and tap the canbus wires thing we have now!

It's just crazy when you consider how many anti-theft devices are on the car now!

I feel Toyota need to remove the ability to disable the immobilizer and start the car, even remotely, without a valid key code being received. I'm sure the back-door involves pretending the App has sent a signal to the car to turn on, which is the only way I know of to start a modern immobilizer-equipped car without the key, unless they are somehow able to send an engine start command directly... but then again the ECU should know it didn't send that since only it can do that and just ignore it?? This is some rabbit hole!

 

[forkingabout]

17 minutes ago, Nick72 said:

Had a second hand Cavalier SRI around 1992. 

I remember Vauxhall first generation deadlocking system as fitted to the mk 3 Cavalier - it had a design flaw, if you could pull up the front door lock button at the same time as lifting the exterior handle, the door would open.

A lot of my friends had MK3 Cavalier & it worked on all of them.

IIRC Vauxhall fixed that issue with the updated 93 MY Cavalier.

[forkingabout]

8 minutes ago, Cyker said:

It's just crazy when you consider how many anti-theft devices are on the car now!

Theft via OBD port would still be possible thanks to EU anti competition laws preventing vehicle manufacturers from securing the port.

EU law states that any repairer ( or car thief ) can plug there electronic device in & connect with the vehicles systems.

[flash22]

re. the petrol station incident, this was more than likely a spotter car, i would suspect they fitted a magnetized GPS under the car, so they could find its location

[Nick72]

Reading some of this thread I'm thinking I need a steering lock. What's a good one?

[Strangely Brown]

Way back on page 10... seems like a lifetime ago...

 

 

[A chapin]

Thanks everyone and I appreciate your input. “Get a good steering lock” was recommended by the repair assessor engineer guy. So for the time being I think that I will. He recommended a stoplock pro or pro elite, milenco or disk-lock. My wife couldn’t handle a friends disk-lock so …

 I didn’t/couldn’t read some of the very early threads when I started on this forum this morning but have done so now which sort of backs this up. An earlier thread response suggested to another guy selling it back to the dealer. Strangely they have asked me to sell mine to them twice - first when I had only had it 6 months and once just last week! 

I really like the RAV4 as a car but have been stunned by the security and now read that it is now rated as poor by thatcham. 
Sad!

[forkingabout]

Wonder how long it will be untill insurance companies start refusing to cover Rav 4 for theft unless it has a Thatcham approved tracking device fitted to it?

 

[ernieb]

11 hours ago, Nick72 said:

Reading some of this thread I'm thinking I need a steering lock. What's a good one?

https://smile.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07B8JKJTW/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

This is what I bought Milenco, police recommended, easy to use, solid and replaces a baseball bat in emergencies. 😀

[Roger_N]

9 hours ago, A chapin said:

I really like the RAV4 as a car but have been stunned by the security and now read that it is now rated as poor by thatcham. 
Sad!

This in a roundabout way could be good news as it may prompt Toyota to do something about it.

[Nick72]

2 hours ago, ernieb said:

https://smile.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07B8JKJTW/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

This is what I bought Milenco, police recommended, easy to use, solid and replaces a baseball bat in emergencies. 😀

Just ordered thanks Ernie. Whilst it's a company car I really don't want all my survival and mountaineering gear going missing or the huge disruption whilst a replacement car is found. Steering lock should put them off. And as you say it doubles up as a defensive weapon.

[PAISLEY1903]

12 hours ago, ernieb said:

https://smile.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07B8JKJTW/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

This is what I bought Milenco, police recommended, easy to use, solid and replaces a baseball bat in emergencies. 😀

Ordered (Halfords) Thank you @ernieb

[PAISLEY1903]

https://www.milenco.com/downloads/Steering-Wheel-Lock-Fitting_Website.mp4 if wondering what to do with it !