2022 RAV4 stolen

[robo1]

[Roger_N]

57 minutes ago, philip42h said:

As I read these articles it sounds more like a 'fix' for the key cloning issue that exists in earlier models but is already addressed in the RAV4. But we can wait in hope ... 😉 

The thing is Philip we don't know if they had already cloned the key.

[philip42h]

6 minutes ago, Roger_N said:

The thing is Philip we don't know if they had already cloned the key.

I'm not quite sure what you mean, but in the case of the CANbus attack (the topic of this thread) we know for certain that the thieves do NOT already have  a cloned key - if they did, they could simply walk up to the car, get in and drive away ...

[Roger_N]

16 minutes ago, philip42h said:

I'm not quite sure what you mean, but in the case of the CANbus attack (the topic of this thread) we know for certain that the thieves do NOT already have  a cloned key - if they did, they could simply walk up to the car, get in and drive away ...

Yes my bad, I was think from the point of view they may already have done some advanced prep but as you say if they had the cloned key they wouldn’t need to use the CANbus.

Unless they have found a way of programming the the car to work with another key.

[Strangely Brown]

I think a small application of Occam's Razor might be in order here.

The attack will, necessarily, need to be simple and quick. They will need to have equipment ready to work with what they expect to find. i.e. gain physical access, attach kit, operate kit, get in car and drive car away.
Anything more than that or out of the ordinary is risky and they will not want to spend time messing about with anything unexpected.

As far as I can see the "fix" will come from either preventing access to the wiring or interrupting/blocking the CAN attack, however either of those may be achieved. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Other than that prevention by adding the unexpected in the form of a physical barrier (steering wheel lock) that would require too much time to deal with is the best that we have... for now.

[Strangely Brown]

1 hour ago, robo1 said:

That sounds like they, or that person at least, still does not understand the problem. It may also be that they do but are instructed not to engage and to give only pre-defined answers.

ETA: That said, perhaps I should apply Hanlon's Razor to my own post.

[robo1]

I give Toyota credit for publisher negative comments which are moderated and could be buried. I think they do take notice of the blog comments. When they announced the RAV mark 4 in 2013 with no spare wheel there were many negative comments posted and Toyota then decided to equip cars with a space saver. Could be pure coincidence or not. 

[Strangely Brown]

Not sure just how slack Toyota have been on this. I can understand the OBD port being "open" for diagnostics and servicing etc but for key programming and vehicle security features too?

I remember when I first got my Saab I wanted to get an extra key set up. The procedure was that all of the keys you wanted to use had to be present and the car was programmed to accept those keys, and only those keys, not the other way round. The Tech2 system used to do the programming also had to "phone home" to Trollhättan before it would work. This meant no possibility of cloned keys.

I would imagine that once the alarm is off and the car is unlocked, presumably by sending a "valid key present" signal via CAN injection, the rest of the security is moot.

Were it me, I would be looking to strengthen that part of the process thereby rendering the physical access to the CAN irrelevant. This would also mean the "fix" could be applied through a software update rather than mechanical modifications.

[Cyker]

I suspect they're splicing into the CANbus wires to send the open doors signal, then they get in, plug into the internal OBD and send the Start signal (It'd be easier to do that from inside the car that some janky spliced connection)

 

[jazzyb88]

Would disabling the Toyota smart entry system make any difference to starting via the OBD or irrelevant?

[Terry10]

Well I have discovered how to get the wheel arch trim off without trashing it so when I feel brave and it's dry I shall have it off and have a look at what can be done to block access to the wiring.

Terry

[Mojo1010]

I would advise all current rav4 owners with newer cars to look into blocking the arch access immediately, speak to a mechanic/welder. 

[Strangely Brown]

3 minutes ago, Mojo1010 said:

I would advise all current rav4 owners with newer cars to look into blocking the arch access immediately, speak to a mechanic/welder. 

Not sure what you're suggesting but wouldn't welding something to block access to the headlamp connector also make it impossible to fix it when it goes wrong.

"The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at and repair." - Douglas Adams.

[ernieb]

I’ve not looked at mine in detail but a more robust trim fitted with security bolts might be a good start? But I guess there might be more vulnerable points that would need protection?

[Terry10]

I was thinking more like a shaped metal plate in the right place with bolts and 2 nuts plus locktite on the inside.

These scroats aren't walking around with a tool kit.They want a quick job and on their way. 
The way I see it is that if they have to get the bonnet up as well to get at the inside bolts then they will move on.

Toyota dropped a massive clanger with this but they ain't going to admit it are they.

Terry

[forkingabout]

7 minutes ago, Terry10 said:

I was thinking more like a shaped metal plate in the right place with bolts and 2 nuts plus locktite on the inside.

Nordlock washers would be a better option then loctite.

[kucyk]

From Poland, stolen using a relay attack 🥶 I thought the RAV4 key fob goes into the sleep mode when static, looks like I was wrong. Is that feature only available In BZ4X? 🤔

[robo1]

Think it was only introduced with the 2021 RAV so it might be an older RAV or It might not be included in the Polish specification.

[kucyk]

8 minutes ago, robo1 said:

Think it was only introduced with the 2021 RAV so it might be an older RAV or It might not be included in the Polish specification.

I wonder if my Plug-In has it 🤔

[NASY]

I'm sure many people are having fun thinking of devising ways to make the current theft modus operandi preference non-doable. As our friend Strangely Brown has so rightly said the consequences can be somewhat future burdening. Visible deterrence is first order deterrence ie no desire on the part of the possible Perp to even start to engage in the activity and hence forth no damage or theft. Clever systems that make theft impossible however good they may be are not going to deter the unknowing from trying and possibly making a mess of the vehicle that isn't stolen.

[robo1]

If you put your fob down near the car. Leave it for a few minutes and try and open your door without moving the fob if it opens you haven’t if it doesn’t open you do.

[Strangely Brown]

1 hour ago, NASY said:

I'm sure many people are having fun thinking of devising ways to make the current theft modus operandi preference non-doable. As our friend Strangely Brown has so rightly said the consequences can be somewhat future burdening. Visible deterrence is first order deterrence ie no desire on the part of the possible Perp to even start to engage in the activity and hence forth no damage or theft. Clever systems that make theft impossible however good they may be are not going to deter the unknowing from trying and possibly making a mess of the vehicle that isn't stolen.

Exactly that.
If a preventive measure is found and applied then there would have to be some way of alerting the scumbag would-be thief to that end. They won't know what they don't know.

[Rav Rob]

2 hours ago, kucyk said:

I wonder if my Plug-In has it 🤔

My 2019 RAV4 had an all Black key. My 2021 (which should have the anti scan key) is Silver and Black so the design clearly changed. What is your key like?

[ernieb]

My PHEV '21 has the key sleep function. However, I still use a Faraday pouch once the key is in the house. There is the key combination to force it to sleep if you are moving around with the key in your pocket, that also works.

[Strangely Brown]

8 hours ago, Rav Rob said:

My 2019 RAV4 had an all Black key. My 2021 (which should have the anti scan key) is Silver and Black so the design clearly changed. What is your key like?

My 2021 car has both - all black and black/silver. The latter is just a case over the all black key.

Are you sure that yours is not just a cover?