2022 RAV4 stolen

[Roger_N]

24 minutes ago, Strangely Brown said:

If, as suggested, the solution is to interrupt the signals on the CANbus then it should be possible for Toyota to implement something similar. I suspect the bean counters are already weighing wether it is worthwhile... and I am not holding my breath.

This maybe one of the reasons there are no new Rav4’s to order at present, I think Toyota need to get this sorted as it is becoming an embarrassment, especially after the BZ4X episode.

[Yugguy1970]

So to sum up, is it the ODBC port they are getting to or the wiring?  Should we be fitting a metal wheel arch?

[ernieb]

Wiring that links into the ODBC port and fitting a more secure wheel arch cover would in my view make things a lot more difficult for the would be thief.

[2009joe]

On 9/30/2022 at 12:12 PM, atartan said:

I have not been on this forum for while but my 2022 March car was stolen last night. Fortunetly I used MYT app located the car and recovered. Entertainment Screen and some other stuff were removed and the hybrid multifunction error was on the screen.  I took it to the Toyota service and asked for explanation how someone managed to drive away without keys.. The service manager said it is really easy to start the car from left frot headlight and it takes 5 minutes.

I will be contacting Toyota UK to explain this and try to return the car or find a way to secure it. It looks like their security system faulty and someone can drive the car away with little effort.

I think with these major problems like this that the company know this etc should be a law in place so that Toyota will take back the car at full cost as it's the cars fault not the new owner. I'm sure that lemon law bound to come into effect as this is the stupest thing ever 

[FROSTYBALLS]

It will take some time for a lemon law to be introduced and, if it were, almost certainly won't be retrospective.

Aside from that manufacturers like Ford and Jaguar Land Rover, etc, have had long standing security issues with their models, which, similar to the Rav4, have only come to light after the car has been in production for a while - no recalls were adopted for these. 

[Terry10]

So , if you view the Dutch video on page 20 posted by strongly brown it shows the wiring plug/ socket that the scroats split and plug into.

I have taken a couple of snapshots off this video for I.D purposes, As someone suggested it could be protected by a 2 ended box of some sort or alternatively a metal plate to block access.

I am a little busy at present but definitely on my to do list and I do feel that some sort of extra security stickers on the windows wouldn't do any harm to try and alleviate forced entry damage.

At the end of the day it's about getting them to move on to an easier target.

Terry

[ernieb]

1 hour ago, Terry10 said:

So , if you view the Dutch video on page 20 posted by strongly brown it shows the wiring plug/ socket that the scroats split and plug into.

I have taken a couple of snapshots off this video for I.D purposes, As someone suggested it could be protected by a 2 ended box of some sort or alternatively a metal plate to block access.

I am a little busy at present but definitely on my to do list and I do feel that some sort of extra security stickers on the windows wouldn't do any harm to try and alleviate forced entry damage.

At the end of the day it's about getting them to move on to an easier target.

Terry

Agreed, but somehow you’ll need to communicate that the access to this plug is protected otherwise they could do a lot of damage before they find out?

[philip42h]

I've no idea how accurately the "Dutch video" portrays the actual CAN-bus exploit used to steal RAV4.5s it seems at least a plausible explanation. And if I've understood it correctly, they use a smart box of tricks connected to the CAN-bus to make the car believe that the key is present. In that sense it is ridiculously simple - the car believes that the key is present so that the thief can make use of the smart entry and start features to open the door, start the engine and drive away ...

Which leads me to ask, if that is the exploit wouldn't it be prevented by simply disabling the smart entry and start system?

You would then need to use the buttons on the remote key to unlock the doors, and the key physically against the start button in order to get the car into Ready mode - which would be no more inconvenient than fitting and removing a Krooklock or equivalent. You may still want a visible deterrent ...

[Strangely Brown]

20 minutes ago, philip42h said:

Which leads me to ask, if that is the exploit wouldn't it be prevented by simply disabling the smart entry and start system?

You would then need to use the buttons on the remote key to unlock the doors, and the key physically against the start button in order to get the car into Ready mode - which would be no more inconvenient than fitting and removing a Krooklock or equivalent. You may still want a visible deterrent ...

I have thought exactly the same thing. The only problem is that I have no way to test the hypothesis.

... and yes, that does leave the Rumsfeldian problem of the thieves not knowing what they don't know.

I think that a distinctly different - i.e. metal - wheel arch liner material (at least in part) may be useful in that not only would it prevent access, it would also be obvious to the thief that the car is not what they expect.

[jazzyb88]

52 minutes ago, philip42h said:

I've no idea how accurately the "Dutch video" portrays the actual CAN-bus exploit used to steal RAV4.5s it seems at least a plausible explanation. And if I've understood it correctly, they use a smart box of tricks connected to the CAN-bus to make the car believe that the key is present. In that sense it is ridiculously simple - the car believes that the key is present so that the thief can make use of the smart entry and start features to open the door, start the engine and drive away ...

Which leads me to ask, if that is the exploit wouldn't it be prevented by simply disabling the smart entry and start system?

You would then need to use the buttons on the remote key to unlock the doors, and the key physically against the start button in order to get the car into Ready mode - which would be no more inconvenient than fitting and removing a Krooklock or equivalent. You may still want a visible deterrent ...

This is exactly what I thought and discussed earlier on so have resorted back to disabling the smart entry and using a lock

[ernieb]

9 hours ago, philip42h said:

 

You would then need to use the buttons on the remote key to unlock the doors, and the key physically against the start button in order to get the car into Ready mode - which would be no more inconvenient than fitting and removing a Krooklock or equivalent. You may still want a visible deterrent ...

I do now use a Milenco steering wheel lock as a visible deterent which needs a key to unlock so I need to keys in my hand so using this to start the car would not be an additional problem.

Before I disable the smart entry It would be nice to have it confirmed that the thieves could not just enable it again at the same time as they break into the Canbus. 

[Strangely Brown]

46 minutes ago, ernieb said:

I do now use a Milenco steering wheel lock as a visible deterent which needs a key to unlock so I need to keys in my hand so using this to start the car would not be an additional problem.

Before I disable the smart entry It would be nice to have it confirmed that the thieves could not just enable it again at the same time as they break into the Canbus. 

I agree. I use a StopLock Pro which means the keys are in my hand when I enter or leave the car. Because of this I find that I usually unlock and lock manually anyway. Touching the key to the Start button would be no big deal.

As I see it, all the time that the CANbus is open, unencrypted and, more importantly, changes are unauthenticated then if access can be gained from outside the vehicle, without tripping an alarm, the security might as well not be there.

The problem at the moment is not whether disabling keyless entry would prevent the theft rather it is how do you communicate the fact to the scumbag that is about to rip out the arch liner before he (or she, let's tick that inclusivity box) does the damage. It would take time for word to get out amongst these particular thieves and anyway, the majority of RAV4 owners will be completely unaware of the problem. Hell, even dealers don't really know about it.

Anyway... this too shall pass. It may just take a bit longer than we would like.

[forkingabout]

Maybe a glow in the dark warning sign stuck inside the left front arch with a suitable message on it.

[Strangely Brown]

14 minutes ago, forkingabout said:

Maybe a glow in the dark warning sign stuck inside the left front arch with a suitable message on it.

Just like the sign on the van that says, "No tools left in this vehicle overnight".

The driver comes out to a van broken into and a note saying, "You're right".

ETA: Facetious, but with a serious point.

[Roger_N]

The system they use over rides the fact that the keys aren’t present, so I think it unlikely that turning off auto entry etc, is going to make any difference in this case, it’s like they are replacing the cars settings with the ones in the box on a temporary basis.

[Hayzee]

5 hours ago, ernieb said:

Before I disable the smart entry It would be nice to have it confirmed that the thieves could not just enable it again at the same time as they break into the Canbus. 

That would be my concern too

[Hayzee]

5 hours ago, ernieb said:

I do now use a Milenco steering wheel lock as a visible deterent

When it comes down to it, this will be the best method of minimising any attempt of theft and associated damage to our cars.

Fitting a Ghost II or ODB lock or reinforcing the wheel arch and/or putting stickers on the car is very unlikely to stop an attempt of breaking in, though a steering wheel lock will have a much better chance.

[nlee]

I would not promote the use of a steering lock. Just before Christmas I was in the car park of a well known food store and I walked past 3 RAV4s (including mine). Mine had a steering lock, the others didn't. Which ones would they try to steal?

Of course I would promote the use of a steering lock to all you good people but while others don't use them, it gives a little hope they'll walk on by mine!

[Strangely Brown]

13 hours ago, nlee said:

I would not promote the use of a steering lock. Just before Christmas I was in the car park of a well known food store and I walked past 3 RAV4s (including mine). Mine had a steering lock, the others didn't. Which ones would they try to steal?

Of course I would promote the use of a steering lock to all you good people but while others don't use them, it gives a little hope they'll walk on by mine!

That sounds very much like the two hikers who come across a bear in the woods...

Hiker1: Do we run or stand still?

Hiker2: We run.

Hiker1: Really? I don't think we can outrun the bear.

Hiker2: I don't have to outrun the bear. I only have to outrun you!

[Mojo1010]

I think if I see other rav4 owners I would want to warn them about their new/nearly cars. 

[jazzyb88]

It's now gotten coverage in The Times. I think Toyota will be aware of it very quickly and hopefully no more of those clueless answers!

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/luxury-cars-are-gone-in-90-seconds-with-thief-kit-z300g0njf

[Ravirules]

Just emailed Toyota uk.., explained I have on order a £50k RAV4 PHEV, which appears to be easily stolen in under 60seconds, by thieves accessing the front left wheel arch….let’s see what the response is…I’m  not optimistic.

i have now allocated an additional  £1000 (if the car ever arrives), for the purchase of a Ghost2 alarm, driveway post, and disc lock )..all because the biggest car manufacturer in the world is completely incompetent! Great start to 2023👍

[FROSTYBALLS]

But pointless really as Toyota don't visit the Club, so won't see comments such as these.

[forkingabout]

2 hours ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

But pointless really as Toyota don't visit the Club, so won't see comments such as these.

Also pointless as thanks to the EU law makers car thieves can easily steal any manufacturers vehicle via the OBD port.

Even if Toyota come up with a fix, the car thieves will then just study a Rav 4 for the next weak point in OR more likely just attack the owner for keys if there is enough demand for these vehicles.

[ernieb]

Good point Lee, which has ben made before that it was/is and EU requirement that the ODB port is user accessible. My understanding is that the manufactures had proposed a closed or dual OBD port which is why the EU came up with the legislation to keep it user accesible.