2022 RAV4 stolen

[SO8]

Hi, new to the forum as looking to get a Phev … will read all the posts but as 30 pages will ask this first being lazy … has anyone fitted aftermarket immobilisers ?  

Ghost or a more normal fob type immobiliser ?  Just wondered what Toyota would think re warranty ?   
I was thinking for me more along the lines of a Disklok or Stoplock Pro Elite as I use them on my current X3 but also with a Meta S5 Deadlock which is a combined S5 tracker and separate immobiliser which works off a fob.  It has been excellent and I will be getting it removed from the X3 but worry what Toyota will think if there is an electrical issue. 

[kucyk]

14 minutes ago, Strangely Brown said:

That encouraging to hear, but is it true? I think it odd that the HEV and PHEV would use different CANbus communications.

According to openpilot, it's true. It's pure software implementation with the keys stored in the memory, no hardware changes. https://github.com/commaai/openpilot/discussions/19932

The guys are unable to implement openpilot in those cars, because the messages on CAN bus are signed to make sure they come from a legitimate source.

The question is how much time it will take to extract those keys and start signing fake commands with them but at this stage I would assume that PHEV is relatively safe.

[ernieb]

2 minutes ago, kucyk said:

According to openpilot, it's true. It's pure software implementation with the keys stored in the memory, no hardware changes. https://github.com/commaai/openpilot/discussions/19932

Surely if this is correct then the older cars should be able of being updated?

[kucyk]

Just now, ernieb said:

Surely if this is correct then the older cars should be able of being updated?

I doubt it.

[Strangely Brown]

30 minutes ago, kucyk said:

I doubt it.

Why? If it is purely software and no hardware changes then why do you say not?

[YarisHybrid2016]

2 hours ago, Strangely Brown said:

Why? If it is purely software and no hardware changes then why do you say not?

Can all the modules be updated afterwards? That's the question.

[Strangely Brown]

On 4/2/2023 at 10:01 PM, Strangely Brown said:

There is something about it that just doesn't seem right.

"... not to  bothered about the car it was the fact that a lot of my stuff was in the boot things like certificates, aftershaves and other valuables. If anyone spots a car of this kind please get in touch"

Concerned about aftershaves more than the car?

 

Quite possibly. Just seems odd that he has only 1 post.

Anyway, if it is a hoax post then I don't see what there is to gain by it. Probably just me being overly cynical.

Still no followup from D Buck. Increasingly confident that it was, for whatever reason, a hoax.

Very puzzling.

[FROSTYBALLS]

27 minutes ago, Strangely Brown said:

Still no followup from D Buck.

We do sometimes get members who post once only and never again. Strange but true.

[Dippy]

On 4/16/2023 at 9:35 AM, Strangely Brown said:

Still no followup from D Buck

D Buck didn’t stop here. 

[aerykk]

Why don't we super glue the headlight/panel to the car so they can't get behind it? Obviously not ideal, but better than being stolen, no?

Another idea: throw a home security sensor on the inside of the panel.

[TonyHSD]

On 5/11/2023 at 9:34 AM, aerykk said:

Why don't we super glue the headlight/panel to the car so they can't get behind it? Obviously not ideal, but better than being stolen, no?

Another idea: throw a home security sensor on the inside of the panel.

Metal plate from inside the engine bay, something similar to other Toyota models cat plates under the car. Only thicker metal that can’t be bend easily by hands or cut through with saw without making a lots of noise. But then the thieves will move into obd port or stop lights or anything else . There is no cure against these. The only secure solution is an old school 12v disconnect switch hidden somewhere and manual lock of all doors. Do that and no modern thieve will be able to take your car. No need to use all the times, on.y when parked at risky places . 

[aerykk]

12 hours ago, TonyHSD said:

Metal plate from inside the engine bay, something similar to other Toyota models cat plates under the car. Only thicker metal that can’t be bend easily by hands or cut through with saw without making a lots of noise. But then the thieves will move into obd port or stop lights or anything else . There is no cure against these. The only secure solution is an old school 12v disconnect switch hidden somewhere and manual lock of all doors. Do that and no modern thieve will be able to take your car. No need to use all the times, on.y when parked at risky places . 

I think as long as it's not too easy to get to the can bus, and having some other deterrent, it should help a lot. The videos I've seen, they're holding the front cover with their hands to get behind and hack the bus.

I'm still trying to figure out exactly what they are pulling on, is it the outer plastic Shell? They used a flat head screwdriver? Or the headlight cover? On my 2023 rav4 that cover is screwed in from the inside.

I'm going to put an alarm sensor on the inside of the cover so when they pull, off goes the alarm. Also one on the driver seat door. That should be enough, but I need to know exactly what they are removing to get to the bus.

Do you have a link to a 12v disconnect switch hidden I can purchase? I don't know anything about these

[TonyHSD]

12 hours ago, aerykk said:

I think as long as it's not too easy to get to the can bus, and having some other deterrent, it should help a lot. The videos I've seen, they're holding the front cover with their hands to get behind and hack the bus.

I'm still trying to figure out exactly what they are pulling on, is it the outer plastic shell? They used a flat head screwdriver? Or the headlight cover? On my 2023 rav4 that cover is screwed in from the inside.

I'm going to put an alarm sensor on the inside of the cover so when they pull, off goes the alarm. Also one on the driver seat door. That should be enough, but I need to know exactly what they are removing to get to the bus.

Do you have a link to a 12v disconnect switch hidden I can purchase? I don't know anything about these

Hi, 

I haven’t got any links or ideas about the switch just as general speak about cars and protection. Back in the days we used to do that as precaution against theft on cars without alarms and it worked very well. If the modern tech it’s so easily hacked then the old school tricks might be helpful. 
Good luck 

[Gerg]

On 5/11/2023 at 11:10 AM, TonyHSD said:

The only secure solution is an old school 12v disconnect switch hidden somewhere

I was thinking about similar a while back.  I couldn't see a problem in installing a switch, fitted in series with the brake light wire, the one that connects to the brake pedal operated switch. 

If it wasn't found, this switch, fitted almost anywhere you choose, would inhibit the vehicle going 'ready' at the most simple level.

Perhaps this has already been suggested (this is a long thread that I'm not following that closely!  Not a RAV owner).

Or can the usual start-up necessities be by-passed by the thief during the Canbus hack?

[Strangely Brown]

26 minutes ago, Gerg said:

I was thinking about similar a while back.  I couldn't see a problem in installing a switch, fitted in series with the brake light wire, the one that connects to the brake pedal operated switch. 

If it wasn't found, this switch, fitted almost anywhere you choose, would inhibit the vehicle going 'ready' at the most simple level.

Perhaps this has already been suggested (this is a long thread that I'm not following that closely!  Not a RAV owner).

Or can the usual start-up necessities be by-passed by the thief during the Canbus hack?

The canbus attack tells the car that a valid key is present and by extension disables the alarm and allows the attacker to open the door and start the car.

The idea of preventing "foot on brake" being recognised by means of a switch sounds plausible and may well work to prevent the car going into READY mode.

The downside, of course, is that it is a modification to the wiring and could invalidate a warranty claim for any future electrical faults. It also doesn't stop the thief breaking into the car with the canbus attack in the first place so you will still have that problem to deal with.

The interesting part for me is whether signalling valid key present is of any use if keyless entry is disabled. Without keyless entry the presence, or not, of a valid key becomes irrelevant because it requires a button press and unlock signal from the key in order to open the door.

Of course, without a caninvader tool to test it there is no way to know... and it still doesn't prevent damage by a scr0te who will be none the wiser that their attack will be unsuccessful.

Still... food for thought.

[ernieb]

I’m sure the insurance company would not be happy in the advent of an accident that a modification had been made to the foot brake signalling systems and agree that Toyota would walk away from any warranty claim.

[aerykk]

Good points. My current preventative measures:

• Visible yellow wheel lock
• Security sticker on the window
• AirTags with Speakers removed hidden inside the rav4 Shell (1 obvious)
• Home security sensors on the doors
• Nest Outdoor camera in the cup holder facing the driver window

That's.. probably enough? cost about $500 but I already had everything laying around except the $50 wheel lock

[SO8]

On 5/12/2023 at 1:20 PM, ernieb said:

I’m sure the insurance company would not be happy in the advent of an accident that a modification had been made to the foot brake signalling systems and agree that Toyota would walk away from any warranty claim.

Though if the modification were to cause an issue it would ping a warning on the dash which would no doubt show on the ECU fault memory ?

I don' think an insurer would be impressed with any 'home made' mod though !   

Anything via a reputable company would have weight behind it but something where someone cuts a wire and puts a kill switch in on a modern car is not exactly like on an old car which was easy. 

 

[kucyk]

19 hours ago, aerykk said:

Good points. My current preventative measures:

• Visible yellow wheel lock
• Security sticker on the window
• AirTags with speakers removed hidden inside the rav4 shell (1 obvious)
• Home security sensors on the doors
• Nest Outdoor camera in the cup holder facing the driver window

That's.. probably enough? cost about $500 but I already had everything laying around except the $50 wheel lock

That's mad 🙃

Wheel lock is enough for sure, once they see it, they will move on to the one without lock.

[aerykk]

7 hours ago, kucyk said:

That's mad 🙃

Wheel lock is enough for sure, once they see it, they will move on to the one without lock.

You'd think so, but plenty of photos of cut wheel locks on amazon 🙃

[ernieb]

If someone is that determined to have your car nothing will stop them, it all depends on how much time they have and if the location allows them to use tools that can cut through locks etc.

I'm definitely in the visual deterrent camp, a decent steering wheel lock is going to make the casual/average thief think again and move on to the next car. IF the RAV had a manufactures modification to cover or remove easy access to the offside light wiring harness that would help enormiously.

[Terry10]

Hi. If anyone is interested I spotted  the Stoplock Pro Elite at Aldi online for £19.99 plus about £3.50 postage .

A mate of mine ordered one immediately and it arrived last Thursday. It is indeed what it says a genuine Stoplock as above.

Never seen one that cheap before so if anyone out there wants one then get on with it before it suddenly goes up in price.

regards Terry

[Rigsby]

58 minutes ago, Terry10 said:

Hi. If anyone is interested I spotted  the Stoplock Pro Elite at Aldi online for £19.99 plus about £3.50 postage .

A mate of mine ordered one immediately and it arrived last Thursday. It is indeed what it says a genuine Stoplock as above.

Never seen one that cheap before so if anyone out there wants one then get on with it before it suddenly goes up in price.

regards Terry

No longer available 😢

[RavLab]

I also ended up getting the Pro and returning for the Pro Elite version as I had trouble putting the Pro version on without tooting the horn several times. The Mrs. was worried neighbours may think we are being rude.

The Pro Elite version works like a charm and can be put in multiple orientations, so that's a +.

[Strangely Brown]

13 hours ago, aerykk said:

You'd think so, but plenty of photos of cut wheel locks on amazon 🙃

Do you have any links to those? I'd be very surprised if they were either of the recommended items here.

Of course, anything can be cut given the right tools and enough time and seclusion. Cutting through a Stoplock or a Milenco will be very noisy and take a lot longer than any thief would want to spend doing it. It would be far easier to cut the steering wheel but that cuts into profit [no pun intended]... and still takes time and makes noise.

The visual deterrent of a quality lock should be sufficient that they will move on. If they are that determined to take your particular car then there is nothing that you can do to stop them.