2022 RAV4 stolen

[Flatcoat]

No idea, simply referenced in the other long running saga of a thread. 

[FROSTYBALLS]

Simlar topics merged

[Strangely Brown]

7 hours ago, JDK-SL7 said:

I went for my appointment for the headlamp protection plate to be fitted today by Jemca Toyota Croydon today.

It was going to be £84 total with the rest of the ‘cost’ being subsidised by warranty… decent value for piece of mind.

BUT when I got there the engineer said he wouldn’t do it as the plug-ins aren’t vulnerable to this method due to their software, apparently it is only Hevs? He checked the official Toyota info etc first and sounded confident! 

Mine is a 21 plate PHEV and seemingly immune to this method ?

He did still recommend a physical steering lock, and showed me how to turn off my key at night (hold down lock then press unlock 5 times for a red light). 

Has anyone else heard this?  

If the attack happens as we believe - i.e. box sends valid key present signal - then I do not see how PHEVs can be immune to this problem. For the PHEV to be of a significantly different design in that area seems unlikely to me so I would not be too complacent.

I will certainly be having a word with my dealer about the availability and fitting of the plate as it seems to be silly not to fit it at that price. If my dealer cannot do it then I will contact Jemca in Croydon as it is "just up the road".

Regardless of the plate being fitted a steering lock will still be needed as there is no way to tell the thief that their attack will fail and the car will be damaged anyway if they try.

Re: keys, if I understand correctly there should be no need to put the key to sleep manually as I am led to believe that they are motion sensing and sleep automatically after a few minutes.
 

[philip42h]

21 minutes ago, Strangely Brown said:

If the attack happens as we believe - i.e. box sends valid key present signal - then I do not see how PHEVs can be immune to this problem.

Agreed ... it's all speculation on our part, but that argument makes sense to me.

Equally, a PHEV is likely to be parked off the road overnight so that it can be charged. A car parked off the road is a less likely target for thieves.

A HEV is quite likely to be parked on the road and thus a more likely target for thieves. Not everyone has the luxury of being able to leave their car in a locked garage overnight.

Just more speculation ... 😉

[philip42h]

26 minutes ago, Strangely Brown said:

there should be no need to put the key to sleep manually as I am led to believe that they are motion sensing and sleep automatically after a few minutes

That depends on the age of the car. As I understand newer keys sleep automatically; older ones don't. I believe the cut-off is around 2021 but am not entirely sure ...

[Strangely Brown]

31 minutes ago, philip42h said:

That depends on the age of the car. As I understand newer keys sleep automatically; older ones don't. I believe the cut-off is around 2021 but am not entirely sure ...

That was my understanding too. I guess I will have to test the hypothesis. 🙂

ETA: I will test my key.

[Dushio]

So maybe the test could be:

Park your RAV4 in any carpark with NO steering wheel lock fitted. If the car is gone on your return you know the sleepless key doesn’t work. However if the car is still there, obviously with the bumper hanging off one side (Passenger side), the Headlight hanging out and all the wires ripped out inside above and below the dash - then it’s a success as the car wasn’t stolen - still £1000 of damage plus insurance excess to pay. The best bit is that Toyota earn additional money to fix the damage that their flawed design has caused!

[philip42h]

36 minutes ago, Strangely Brown said:

That was my understanding too. I guess I will have to test the hypothesis. 🙂

ETA: I will test my key.

How? 😉 

I tried testing mine and it failed the test - but I'm not entirely sure that the test was valid.

I placed my key a short distance away from the car, so that it was able to send the necessary "key present" signal, locked the car and left it for half an hour or so hoping that the key would 'sleep'. When I returned the car unlocked as soon as my hand reached the handle.

But, maybe, because the car and key were still within range of one another, they might 'chat' and keep the key awake? I don't know ...

What we need is for the key to sleep when it is remote from the car so as to prevent a relay attack - and I don't have the test equipment for that. 😉

[Rigsby]

18 minutes ago, philip42h said:

How? 😉 

I tried testing mine and it failed the test - but I'm not entirely sure that the test was valid.

I placed my key a short distance away from the car, so that it was able to send the necessary "key present" signal, locked the car and left it for half an hour or so hoping that the key would 'sleep'. When I returned the car unlocked as soon as my hand reached the handle.

But, maybe, because the car and key were still within range of one another, they might 'chat' and keep the key awake? I don't know ...

What we need is for the key to sleep when it is remote from the car so as to prevent a relay attack - and I don't have the test equipment for that. 😉

Not sure of what date my brochure is, but I picked it up just before I ordered my Dynamic HEV in May 2021, it states that “Smart Entry and Motion Sensor Key” was on all models excluding ICON 

[Terry10]

My HEV is registered December 2020. Excel model with 19 inch wheels. I have the motion sensor key and tested it some time back by just putting it on the roof of the car.It took less than 5 mins to go to sleep.Wouldn't let me open the car until I picked it up.Though not sure I think that they introduced the motion sensor key along with the introduction of the 19 inch wheels for the 2021 model year

Terry

 

[Rigsby]

22 minutes ago, Terry10 said:

My HEV is registered December 2020. Excel model with 19 inch wheels. I have the motion sensor key and tested it some time back by just putting it on the roof of the car.It took less than 5 mins to go to sleep.Wouldn't let me open the car until I picked it up.Though not sure I think that they introduced the motion sensor key along with the introduction of the 19 inch wheels for the 2021 model year

Terry

 

That’s good to know, mine is a HEV Dynamic registered in June 21, I’ll test my key tomorrow 🤞

[Strangely Brown]

2 hours ago, philip42h said:

How? 😉 

I tried testing mine and it failed the test - but I'm not entirely sure that the test was valid.

I placed my key a short distance away from the car, so that it was able to send the necessary "key present" signal, locked the car and left it for half an hour or so hoping that the key would 'sleep'. When I returned the car unlocked as soon as my hand reached the handle.

But, maybe, because the car and key were still within range of one another, they might 'chat' and keep the key awake? I don't know ...

What we need is for the key to sleep when it is remote from the car so as to prevent a relay attack - and I don't have the test equipment for that. 😉

And that is exactly the test that I had intended to try and exactly the problem that I foresaw. 👍  I will give it a try anyway to prove the point one way or another. I will also try putting the key on the roof as tested by Terry.

My car was registered in early 2021 and I think manufactured Jan or Feb so it is in that window of doubt.

[nlee]

2 hours ago, philip42h said:

How? 😉 

I tried testing mine and it failed the test - but I'm not entirely sure that the test was valid.

I placed my key a short distance away from the car, so that it was able to send the necessary "key present" signal, locked the car and left it for half an hour or so hoping that the key would 'sleep'. When I returned the car unlocked as soon as my hand reached the handle.

But, maybe, because the car and key were still within range of one another, they might 'chat' and keep the key awake? I don't know ...

What we need is for the key to sleep when it is remote from the car so as to prevent a relay attack - and I don't have the test equipment for that. 😉

That's the test I did. If the key isn't moved within 4 mins, it goes to sleep and the door will not unlock. Tap the key and it will unlock again.

Unfortunately, it sounds like yours does have the motion sensor. 

[philip42h]

7 minutes ago, nlee said:

Unfortunately, it sounds like yours does have the motion sensor. 

That is what I suspected. It seems that MY20 cars don't have motion sensors in the key while MY21 car keys do. Such is life ... 😉

[ROCKETRON]

Don’t forget that those with older models can turn the key fob off if you are not using the car,so that it doesn’t send out a signal and would stop a relay attack.

[Strangely Brown]

15 hours ago, Strangely Brown said:

And that is exactly the test that I had intended to try and exactly the problem that I foresaw. 👍  I will give it a try anyway to prove the point one way or another. I will also try putting the key on the roof as tested by Terry.

My car was registered in early 2021 and I think manufactured Jan or Feb so it is in that window of doubt.

I have tested the key.

Place key on roof.
Press lock button - lock - success - key in range.
Touch handle - unlock - success - key in range and awake.
Lock door with handle - lock - success - key in range and awake.
Wait 4 minutes <was a bit longer, actually closer to 5>.
Touch handle - nothing - success - key in range but asleep.
Lift key
Touch handle - unlock - success - key in range and awake.

I am happy with that.

[philip42h]

3 hours ago, Strangely Brown said:

I have tested the key.

...

In the interests of science, I attempted to repeat exactly that test:

Place key on roof of my MY2020 RAV4. Press lock button - fail - key detected inside car.

Place key on door mirror of my MY2020 RAV4. Press lock button - fail - key detected inside car.

Arrange a support for the key about 1m off the ground and about 0.5m from the car. Press lock button - success - doors locked and mirrors folded.

Decided to try a side-by-side test with the wife's MY2021 C-HR. Place key on roof. Press lock button - lock - success - key in range.

Wait nearer 10 minutes than five ...

Return to the C-HR. Touch handle - nothing - success - key in range but asleep.
Lift key. Touch handle - unlock - success - key in range and awake.

Return to the RAV4. Touch handle - unlock - 'failure'- key in range and awake.

Conclusion: sleepy keys were introduced with MY2021 cars ... probably ... 😉
 

[Strangely Brown]

You could always inquire of your dealer as to the availability of a sleepy key for your car? I would imagine that all of the sleep technology is in the key rather than any changes to the car so one may be available. Wouldn't like to guess the price though.

[philip42h]

30 minutes ago, Strangely Brown said:

You could always inquire of your dealer as to the availability of a sleepy key for your car? I would imagine that all of the sleep technology is in the key rather than any changes to the car so one may be available. Wouldn't like to guess the price though.

Could do but ... We live close to the middle of nowhere. The car lives in a locked garage. I'm not going to lose any sleep over it even if the key does ... 😉

[Terry10]

40 minutes ago, Strangely Brown said:

You could always inquire of your dealer as to the availability of a sleepy key for your car? I would imagine that all of the sleep technology is in the key rather than any changes to the car so one may be available. Wouldn't like to guess the price though.

Hello, somebody correct me if I am wrong please but does it make any difference to the scroat with the equipment to plug in behind the  near side headlight  as to whether we have a sleepy key or not?
I designed and fitted the gadget that blocks off access to that headlight so will be more than happy if I have double protection plus the Stoplock when I go away.

Terry

[kucyk]

1 hour ago, Terry10 said:

Hello, somebody correct me if I am wrong please but does it make any difference to the scroat with the equipment to plug in behind the  near side headlight  as to whether we have a sleepy key or not?
I designed and fitted the gadget that blocks off access to that headlight so will be more than happy if I have double protection plus the Stoplock when I go away.

Terry

No, the key is not needed to start the car using this method.

[Strangely Brown]

1 hour ago, kucyk said:

No, the key is not needed to start the car using this method.

True. It is irrelevant for a CAN attack... but it would prevent a relay theft.

[nlee]

15 hours ago, Strangely Brown said:

You could always inquire of your dealer as to the availability of a sleepy key for your car? I would imagine that all of the sleep technology is in the key rather than any changes to the car so one may be available. Wouldn't like to guess the price though.

Or put the key in a Faraday box/pouch, or any old tin. My key sleeps but I still use a Faraday box. Means I know where to find my keys too 

[ernieb]

6 minutes ago, nlee said:

Or put the key in a Faraday box/pouch, or any old tin. My key sleeps but I still use a Faraday box. Means I know where to find my keys too 

+1

[Rigsby]

12 minutes ago, nlee said:

Or put the key in a Faraday box/pouch, or any old tin. My key sleeps but I still use a Faraday box. Means I know where to find my keys too 

You can’t beat “belt & braces” 👍