Yaris Hybrid - ICE running most of the time

[flash22]

gpf shouldn't be an issue, as it has nowhere near the particulate levels of a diesel

Edit. No TSB's for the GPF, but there is a new TSB for the 12V Battery

 

BE-00868T-TME (24/11/2022)

12 V Battery Depletion due to DRX cycle time on DCM (Toyota Models)

[TonyHSD]

1 hour ago, flash22 said:

gpf shouldn't be an issue, as it has nowhere near the particulate levels of a diesel

Edit. No TSB's for the GPF, but there is a new TSB for the 12V battery

 

BE-00868T-TME (24/11/2022)

12 V battery Depletion due to DRX cycle time on DCM (Toyota Models)

What drx cycle time on dcm means? Interesting. 
Thanks 

[flash22]

DCM - Data Communications Module aka the built in mobile phone

DRX - Discontinuous Reception - tells the DCM to go to sleep and no more work

[Yaris2022]

Ahh, well, interesting that you should say that... My first DCM packed up, so they had to change the whole part at the garage in July.

The engine running due to 12v started around August time. Never had a problem like this before the DCM was replaced.

I think maybe we could be on to something here... is it possible that you have a PDF copy of that TSB, please?

I did wonder whether it had something to do with the DCM... They said no drains, but it was still in the back of my mind.

 

Thanks.

[anchorman]

I did about 20 miles in mine yesterday.   I’m nesh so had the heater on 21.5 and the engine ran most of the time.  The fuel consumption has dropped from 70+ in summer to less than 65.
it’s also making that hollow rattling noise just after start which I’m convinced is the EGR having read up.  Not pestering the dealer, there’s nothing wrong with it.  

[flash22]

sorry the tsb's are a paid service, and I don't have a current subscription

[RickyC]

On 11/30/2022 at 5:42 PM, flash22 said:

gpf shouldn't be an issue, as it has nowhere near the particulate levels of a diesel

I agree that a gasoline engine should not produce an high level of praticulate. 

In Italy the issue was noted since september 2020 on first MY20 Yaris and reported it to Toyota service.  On some voulenteer customer cars a special monitoring system was installed by Toyota service to better understand what was happening under the hood and the conclusion was that this behaviour is caused by GPF cleanup and no other action has been taken.  I too asked to my service and the technician indirectly confirmed me that they were aware of GPF cleanup problems.

Probably GPF doesn't saturate but in some situation the sensors trigger the cleanup process.  When wheather is cold GPF takes more time to reach the correct temperature, considering also the discontinuos use of ICE and regenative braking in hybrid Toyotas.  To GPF it's necessary to send hoxigen rich exaust gasses in GPF and usually gasoline engine gasses are very poor of hoxigen, except in the throttle relese phase when wheels are dragging the engine.  And this situation is not common in HSD cars. 

Probably the issue can't be solved with a SW update, considering that is still involving MY22 models.

Usually some fast accelations and releases when ICE is hot ( 4 tabs ) solve the issue for some days.

[Cyker]

That is very interesting; I've not been hooning around so much since I'm waiting for a new windscreen (Don't want the crack to grow any more! Current date is the 19th!!  ) and have noticed the engine doing that thing where it's running about 1000rpm, but isn't supplying power to the wheels or charging the Battery, even when the HVAC is off, a lot more frequently!

It's murdering my MPG too! So it seems, like my old diesels, the car also wants to be hooned about for optimal performance!    

 

[Yaris2022]

How can I get a cheap subscription to the service to download a copy of the document, please?

I have spoken to the dealer and referred to the TSB... they read it, then said they need to look at the car - gonna book in again, but want to be clued up on the subject, so I know what they need to do etc.

 

Thanks.

[Cyker]

If you go here:

https://www.toyota-tech.eu

You can create an account, and then buy time to access the TSB.

 

 

 

[Yaris2022]

Thank you for that... I looked at the TSB and referred it to the dealer, they thought this would fix it, and they had the car in this week and tried to do the update...

My software was already up to date, so they couldn't update, they checked the DC-DC, charging circuit, 12v etc, did a service, Hybrid check, couldn't fault the car, they charged the 12v, which fixed it last time for a while, but not this time...

I drove it away and it ran in EV until the ICE kicked in, and then the same happened, 'misbehaving'.

Last time, them charging the 12v fixed it, and it was showing as 13.1V today, so I'm not sure what it could be now... it seems like everything I have drawn conclusions on is wrong, and I'm rather fustrated with the whole issue now, as they say there's nothing they can do and they can't fault it, no codes, everything is testing fine etc...

What else can I possibly try? I feel like I have tried everything, and the dealer has too.

[TonyHSD]

10 hours ago, Yaris2022 said:

Thank you for that... I looked at the TSB and referred it to the dealer, they thought this would fix it, and they had the car in this week and tried to do the update...

My software was already up to date, so they couldn't update, they checked the DC-DC, charging circuit, 12v etc, did a service, Hybrid check, couldn't fault the car, they charged the 12v, which fixed it last time for a while, but not this time...

I drove it away and it ran in EV until the ICE kicked in, and then the same happened, 'misbehaving'.

Last time, them charging the 12v fixed it, and it was showing as 13.1V today, so I'm not sure what it could be now... it seems like everything I have drawn conclusions on is wrong, and I'm rather fustrated with the whole issue now, as they say there's nothing they can do and they can't fault it, no codes, everything is testing fine etc...

What else can I possibly try? I feel like I have tried everything, and the dealer has too.

Hi, 

what mpg are you getting as fuel consumption calculated properly full to full and compared to the car dashboard reading? If you are way off the official figures taken into account cold weather etc you can argue on that matter and although the car has not shown any stored fault codes you can ask for replacement or money back. However you will need another same car to test and notice how the other car behaves, same road, same time, perhaps someone from here that lives near you can help, two of you do the test and record on your phones and then show the dealer comparison and eventually escalate to Toyota or even further. I like Toyota cars and although they are the most reliable of all there are always a lemon here and there and we as owners and customers should fight for our rights to have Toyota promise delivered to each and everyone. 
Good luck 👍

[Trewithy]

The only time I manually select EV mode is when I drive in or out of the garage, as soon as I am moving on the road I switch it off.  It is not an electric car, so I don't expect it to behave like one, it is a hybrid where the engine and Battery work together and sometimes separately for maximum efficiency.  I think it is best to let the car decide.   

[Yugguy1970]

Aye, manual ev mode in a none plug in hev is just for low speed manouvering.

 

You'll notice that although it will go to ev itself above 30mph, you can't manually choose it over that speed.

[anchorman]

22 hours ago, Yaris2022 said:

Thank you for that... I looked at the TSB and referred it to the dealer, they thought this would fix it, and they had the car in this week and tried to do the update...

My software was already up to date, so they couldn't update, they checked the DC-DC, charging circuit, 12v etc, did a service, Hybrid check, couldn't fault the car, they charged the 12v, which fixed it last time for a while, but not this time...

I drove it away and it ran in EV until the ICE kicked in, and then the same happened, 'misbehaving'.

Last time, them charging the 12v fixed it, and it was showing as 13.1V today, so I'm not sure what it could be now... it seems like everything I have drawn conclusions on is wrong, and I'm rather fustrated with the whole issue now, as they say there's nothing they can do and they can't fault it, no codes, everything is testing fine etc...

What else can I possibly try? I feel like I have tried everything, and the dealer has too.

You could try waiting till the warm weather comes back and it’ll fix itself.  

[Yaris2022]

I'm getting roughly 54 MPG full to empty.

The courtesy car that they gave was behaving 'normally' and was 'bouncing' in and out of EV as it should do, when you release the pedal, and also just generally, without intervention.

I don't believe this has anything to do with the cold weather as it started in August. I still believe it may be something to do with when they replaced the DCM.

Is there anything more I can try, reset or reseat myself to see if this fixes the issue?

I checked the Battery air filter, just in case, but it is perfectly clean, so no issues with that.

I take it they would have disconnected the Battery, so I guess there is no point doing that as well.

I tend not to use the EV button. Sometimes when the ICE is running when it shouldn't be at low speeds, I can press and it just stops and goes into EV. But other times, it is unavailable without any reason given - Before these issues, it always used to give me a reason, such as "Hybrid Battery Low", "System warming up", "Speed Range Exceeded" etc.

[Cyker]

I think RickyC's post above is relevant; As I said mine has been increasingly doing similar things while I've been limiting it to slow gentle urban driving for the past month and a half (I can't believe it's taken this long to get a new sodding windscreen and it still hasn't been changed!! ), but after taking it on a motorway run and just 70mph-ing it all the way home with some extra bursts for overtaking (I don't know why but there seemed to be a lot of people driving 50-55mph in the middle lane for no apparent reason!), the car seemed to have gone back to its old self.

I have a feeling it wants to regenerate the particulate filter but isn't getting hot enough to do so during urban driving.

Maybe you could try exploring some fast 60+mph roads for an hour or so, esp. ones with gradients, and see if that makes any difference?

 

[Yaris2022]

6 hours ago, Cyker said:

I think RickyC's post above is relevant; As I said mine has been increasingly doing similar things while I've been limiting it to slow gentle urban driving for the past month and a half (I can't believe it's taken this long to get a new sodding windscreen and it still hasn't been changed!! ), but after taking it on a motorway run and just 70mph-ing it all the way home with some extra bursts for overtaking (I don't know why but there seemed to be a lot of people driving 50-55mph in the middle lane for no apparent reason!), the car seemed to have gone back to its old self.

I have a feeling it wants to regenerate the particulate filter but isn't getting hot enough to do so during urban driving.

Maybe you could try exploring some fast 60+mph roads for an hour or so, esp. ones with gradients, and see if that makes any difference?

 

That might be worth a try, thanks. I will go on the motorway and try to do 70 for at least most of the time I'm on there.

Although your car was behaving differently to mine, right?

If you pressed the accelerator when the engine was idling while driving, would it power the car and charge the Battery too? That's what mine shows.

 

[Cyker]

So before, it was running the engine a lot at low-rpm (Like 800-1000ish), sometimes not even charging the Battery (But usually charging the battery).

If I accelerated even gently, it would initially start on MG2 but instead of staying on it, switch to the ICE even if I wasn't going very quickly.

If I lifted off it would show the car was only regen-braking but I can feel the engine is still running and see it was still running on the HUD's tacho. (Normally during the warm-up cycle, the car would show the ICE charging the Battery AND regen charging if I lifted off)

 

[Yaris2022]

2 hours ago, Cyker said:

So before, it was running the engine a lot at low-rpm (Like 800-1000ish), sometimes not even charging the battery (But usually charging the battery).

If I accelerated even gently, it would initially start on MG2 but instead of staying on it, switch to the ICE even if I wasn't going very quickly.

If I lifted off it would show the car was only regen-braking but I can feel the engine is still running and see it was still running on the HUD's tacho. (Normally during the warm-up cycle, the car would show the ICE charging the battery AND regen charging if I lifted off)

 

Thanks for clarifying. This is actually exactly what I am experiencing too, especially the last 2 paragraphs, which gives me a bit of hope.🤞

I will definitely have to give a long drive on the motorway a go soon. Will be hopefully the beginning of next week - I will update once this is complete.

I hope everyone has a good Christmas!🎄

[Yaris2022]

Right, so, I tried the motorway trip, and I'm (sorta) glad to say; it worked! For exactly a week - Which is better than the previous record of 3 days, so maybe something is going right...

After the motorway trip, the car went back to normal, perfectly, and stayed that way, and every day, on my trip on the dual carriageway, I made sure to get the engine up to temperature and then release the pedal to clear the GPF. It's only a short trip, but the engine reaches temp (Middle of the gauge.)

I thought it was all good, and it was all sorted... it was fine this morning, but on my way home from work, once I hit above 40, it started again.

I took it on a detour to check, and sure enough, it continued to act up. Why do you think it has started to act up again?

My 12v Battery had dropped to 11.6v the other day, but as the car was fine, I didn't worry. So I guess that this may not be the problem?

Maybe the car is trying to charge the 12v to boost it, then it will go back to normal? But somehow I doubt this.

 

[Cyker]

So, if it's doing it now and then, that's normal - Mine has always done it now and then, which makes sense if this is the symptom of the particulate filter being regenerated. It should just do it for a bit then, once it's finished, go back to normal - What's not normal is if it keeps doing it for extended periods or starts doing it more and more frequently until it's practically doing it all the time, which is what I was starting to find after doing nothing but slow urban crawl.

Since I've stopped just doing slow crawls and gone back to using fast roads (Sod the windscreen - They have the glass but can't change it until the 16th!   ), I've found mine is still behaving more normally - As I said it still occasionally does that thing where it runs the engine for no apparent reason, but it's not for too long and once it's done whatever it's doing it goes back to normal again.

 

I must admit I am a bit worried if it is the particulate filter causing this. The particulate filter was almost singlehandedly responsible for changing diesels from one of the most reliable power trains to the least reliable power train. (Which is why I jumped off the DERV wagon - I would only ever buy a pre-DPF diesel as they are the only reliable ones!)

I really hope it isn't having the same effect on newer petrol cars too...!

The hybrids will be more susceptible as they have the same problem diesels do, i.e. exhaust not getting hot enough to burn all the ash when crawling along, so a good hard run now and then can only do them good.

It probably doesn't help that I'm using the cheapest petrol; It might be worth trying some higher quality petrol that burns better, e.g. Shell V-Power or Esso Synergy.

It's ironic to think that I might have to run a tank of that through the car now and then like I did on my old diesel Yaris to keep the fuel system clean!  

[RobertR]

9 hours ago, Cyker said:

It probably doesn't help that I'm using the cheapest petrol; It might be worth trying some higher quality petrol that burns better, e.g. Shell V-Power or Esso Synergy.

That definitely doesn't help. Choose at least a normal Shell fuel, or use some additives from time to time. There are some for hybrids too.

GPF should get cleaned pretty quickly, in some Volkswagen videos I have seen that the cleaning process starts in few miles from start, during normal driving (even urban, and I guess they mean in summer) and the GPF should be cleaned basically all the time, petrol gets up the temp pretty quickly.

But it's case by case, someone has a diesel car for 400k miles without a problem and someone turns the diesel engine into junk in 60k miles due to impropriety behavior.

[Yaris2022]

Hi Everyone,

Sorry it's been a while - I have been closely monitoring the situation.

I tried something else - I got the engine up to temperature, I was doing 70MPH, about to come off at the slip road, and selected B mode, and come totally off the accelerator. The ICE revved up really high, and must have cleared some of the filter clogs, as I did this one more time over that journey, and the car returned to normal, going into EV when the accelerator was released.

The car had then been normal for quite some time, even after loads of my short journeys. It did start one morning, but the B mode thing helped again, and the car has returned to normal.

Touch wood, the car has been totally fine, I occasionally put it into B mode and do that deceleration to 'blow out' the filter, and it seems to be working.

I read this article: Particulate Filter: Is There One In My Petrol Engine? | SINSPEED And it explained that engine braking increases the oxygen throughput into the GPF / exhaust system, which ignites the soot, so that would explain the results.

Thanks everybody for helping me get to the bottom of this, and I hope this helps anyone else with the same issue. 🙂

[Nucleolo]

I had the same problem in the cold months, since April the problem hasn't recurred, I'm afraid that with the return of the cold it will recur.