yaris cross 4 wheel drive capability

[TonyHSD]

The guys from Poland has made another video, this time they compare Yaris cross awd to Yaris GR four awd. Here the results. 👍

 

[IT Troll]

The GR-Four gives similar results to the Suzuki, with both having a mechanical drive shaft.

In the comments they talk about having plans to test a FWD Yaris Cross. It will be interesting to see how that compares. 

[Cyker]

Not really surprising, the GR Yaris has a proper well balanced full-time AWD system whereas the YarisX has a part-time FWD-biased AWD system. The rear drive is, at best, an assist only as it just doesn't have the power to move the car on its own.

Maybe in the real world it'd work better, as it's rare you have zero traction, and it might make all the difference in a situation where the FWD one can *almost* but not quite move the car, then the E-Four would have that little bit extra just to get it moving, but it definitely won't have the utility of a proper 4x4 unless they see sense and put in a beefier unit.

I just hope they don't make a GR Yaris X...!    

 

[forkingabout]

5 minutes ago, Cyker said:

I just hope they don't make a GR Yaris X...!    

 

I'd be surprised if Toyota / Gazoo engineers haven't thought about it or made a prototype yet.

If not then sooner or later some tuning company somewhere will make one.

[anchorman]

13 minutes ago, Cyker said:

The rear drive is, at best, an assist only as it just doesn't have the power to move the car on its own.

Who says it doesn’t?

[TonyHSD]

5 minutes ago, forkingabout said:

I'd be surprised if Toyota / Gazoo engineers haven't thought about it or made a prototype yet.

If not then sooner or later some tuning company somewhere will make one.

The guys from the channel mentioned in their previous video that in some part of the world Yaris cross been offered with petrol engine and awd similar to Yaris gr 4, which will make a great small suv with real awd capabilities. 👍

[Cyker]

1 hour ago, anchorman said:

Who says it doesn’t?

To be fair, all the videos we've seen where the front wheels are on rollers, forcing the backs to provide motive force on their own, have been pretty compelling...

You're getting one anyway, so you can do some experiments for us!!  

 

1 hour ago, forkingabout said:

I'd be surprised if Toyota / Gazoo engineers haven't thought about it or made a prototype yet.

If not then sooner or later some tuning company somewhere will make one.

Hmm, maybe a rally-spec lift kit for the normal GR...?  

It does make me sad to see so many people using it as a track toy when it's much more suited as a b-road hooning machine and I feel lifting it would be more in the spirit of it than lowering springs.

It's exactly the sort of thing I wanted when my D4D taught me the thing that makes cars fun is not speed but torque, acceleration and handling, and if it wasn't for the scarcity and running costs (20-30mpg, needs servicing minimum twice a year, be closer to 3-4 times a year for me with my mileage!!) I'd love one - It's replaced my previous 'dream hooning cars' of an old bug-eye Impreza or an R34 GTR  

But I'm happier with the Mk4 because it's not bankrupting me like the GR4 would  (And the Mk4 is still surprisingly fun  )

 

[MCatPG]

I guess these may look like dumb questions but I would like to know the answers and I can't find them! Our Yaris Cross AWD is being built at the moment according to the app. Perhaps the owner's handbook will answer the questions?

1. What is the mechanical/electrical layout of the transmission on a Yaris Cross AWD? From what I've been able to find out the rear wheel drive is purely from an electric motor/generator with no mechanical linkage to the petrol engine, is that right? For the front wheel drive, does the petrol engine have a conventional mechanical transmission to the front wheels with an electric motor/generator planted somewhere in the drive train (where?) or does the engine just drive an alternator with the actual power to the front wheels coming only from an electric motor/generator, or two?

2. What has to be done to enable the car to be towed, or pushed by hand?

[TonyHSD]

3 hours ago, MCatPG said:

I guess these may look like dumb questions but I would like to know the answers and I can't find them! Our Yaris Cross AWD is being built at the moment according to the app. Perhaps the owner's handbook will answer the questions?

1. What is the mechanical/electrical layout of the transmission on a Yaris Cross AWD? From what I've been able to find out the rear wheel drive is purely from an electric motor/generator with no mechanical linkage to the petrol engine, is that right? For the front wheel drive, does the petrol engine have a conventional mechanical transmission to the front wheels with an electric motor/generator planted somewhere in the drive train (where?) or does the engine just drive an alternator with the actual power to the front wheels coming only from an electric motor/generator, or two?

2. What has to be done to enable the car to be towed, or pushed by hand?

Hi Michael,

1. Here a video to see what is the hybrid drivetrain used in Yaris cross 

Here is about the awd and how it works: 

2. Of you ever need to push the car by hand you need to select N neutral and can push it. For towing consult with your owner manual, however best is to be taken with all shells on platform. Hybrids and Battery electric cars are not designed to be towed with wheels on the ground, they have permanent magnet electric motors. 

[RobertR]

A long time ago as boys, we are spend all day long looking for someone to be stuck in the show on my steep street during winter. We just push them and we have much fun with that. Don't believe we push those cars more than that little 5HP engine in YC will and still, we help them to go moving. So from my perspective, it's totally worthed system to respect its limitation. This system is designed to help you in situations where FWD starts losing grip and push you a little bit, not for crawling on top of the others cars in a traffic jam.

[Cyker]

9 hours ago, MCatPG said:

I guess these may look like dumb questions but I would like to know the answers and I can't find them! Our Yaris Cross AWD is being built at the moment according to the app. Perhaps the owner's handbook will answer the questions?

1. What is the mechanical/electrical layout of the transmission on a Yaris Cross AWD? From what I've been able to find out the rear wheel drive is purely from an electric motor/generator with no mechanical linkage to the petrol engine, is that right? For the front wheel drive, does the petrol engine have a conventional mechanical transmission to the front wheels with an electric motor/generator planted somewhere in the drive train (where?) or does the engine just drive an alternator with the actual power to the front wheels coming only from an electric motor/generator, or two?

2. What has to be done to enable the car to be towed, or pushed by hand?

That's right, no mechanical linkage to the rear wheels; It's literally a second motor/generator (MG-R).

The Toyota hybrid drive is a bit hard to explain, but the engine doesn't really have a direct connection to the front wheels and can spin freely, but one of the electric motors (MG1) can spin in such a way to either act as a generator for the engine, or transmit engine torque to the wheels, which are directly driven by MG2. It's quite a simple system mechanically, but hard to explain. There are lots of youtube videos that do a better job explaining it with animations than you could ever hope to do with words!

 

As for the towing, the car does have a Neutral, but it's a fake neutral as there is no clutch or way to disconnect the drivetrain from the wheels; All N does is cut power to MG2 so no power flows to or from it.

It's fine to move it a bit in that mode - I've been abusing it in super-slow traffic to simulate dipping the clutch, because holding a slow speed on the brakes is anathema to my manual-driving brain, but you wouldn't want to tow it any real distance as it risks damaging something due to it being permanently engaged.

Much safer to get a low-loader or something to transport it.

[MCatPG]

Thanks for the answers - I hadn't thought to look for videos. 

Our current breakdown insurer is the AA and we pay for their "get you home" recovery service but I wonder whether if we do break down there will be a discussion about whether we are going to have a transporter vehicle or be towed. Hopefully they will know that these cars can't be towed - but presumably just winching it on to a transporter will be OK - I can't see why not.

Another thing I can't find online is the capacity of the propulsion Battery. I know I won't have any control over the Battery management system (nor should I) but I am used to managing the 12kWh House Battery bank on our boat so I am interested in knowing what the car has.

[TonyHSD]

45 minutes ago, MCatPG said:

Thanks for the answers - I hadn't thought to look for videos. 

Our current breakdown insurer is the AA and we pay for their "get you home" recovery service but I wonder whether if we do break down there will be a discussion about whether we are going to have a transporter vehicle or be towed. Hopefully they will know that these cars can't be towed - but presumably just winching it on to a transporter will be OK - I can't see why not.

Another thing I can't find online is the capacity of the propulsion battery. I know I won't have any control over the battery management system (nor should I) but I am used to managing the 12kWh House battery bank on our boat so I am interested in knowing what the car has.

Towing an electric or hybrid car with electric motors directly connected to the wheels can and may cause fire. Tesla has plenty of examples, other make and models too. That is the first and the most important reason why we should never do that. 👍

[MCatPG]

48 minutes ago, TonyHSD said:

Towing an electric or hybrid car with electric motors directly connected to the wheels can and may cause fire. Tesla has plenty of examples, other make and models too. That is the first and the most important reason why we should never do that. 👍

I live in hope that if we break down the AA responder will know that. 

[TonyHSD]

1 minute ago, MCatPG said:

I live in hope that if we break down the AA responder will know that. 

Well, he should, but now you know too and that is a bonus.👍

The thing is that it’s a Toyota and they never break 🏁👌

[MCatPG]

1 minute ago, TonyHSD said:

Well, he should, but now you know too and that is a bonus.👍

The thing is that it’s a Toyota and they never break 🏁👌

Well they may not have ever broken in the past, but that was before I bought one.

[IT Troll]

8 hours ago, MCatPG said:

Another thing I can't find online is the capacity of the propulsion battery.

 0.76 kWh is the figure I've seen bandied about. Sometimes rounded to 0.8 kWh. Made up of 48 x 3.7 V cells.

[Cyker]

It's mental - 700watt-hours! Compare the bz, which has over 70 KILOwatt-hours! 700 vs 70,000! The Battery has over 70 times less capacity than the one in the bz4x and most EVs yet allows the car to hit 80+mpg!

It's some kind of mystical voodoo I tell you!

 

[MCatPG]

15 hours ago, IT Troll said:

 0.76 kWh is the figure I've seen bandied about. Sometimes rounded to 0.8 kWh. Made up of 48 x 3.7 V cells.

 

14 hours ago, Cyker said:

It's mental - 700watt-hours! Compare the bz, which has over 70 KILOwatt-hours! 700 vs 70,000! The battery has over 70 times less capacity than the one in the bz4x and most EVs yet allows the car to hit 80+mpg!

It's some kind of mystical voodoo I tell you!

 

Turns out I did have the data, I just didn't realise it.

https://media.toyota.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/pdf/210831M-Yaris-Cross-tech-spec.pdf

Number of cells 48, Nominal voltage 177.6 [therefore 3.7v per cell], Capacity (amp/h) 4.3

48 x 3.7 x 4.3 = 763.68 Watt hours so IT Troll has it right.

And Cyker is also right - it's mental. Because we don't even get a usable 763 Wh. If it's a typical Li+ cycle we can't charge above 80% or discharge below 20% so we get an effective capacity of 0.6 x 763 = 458 Wh. Less than half a kilowatt hour. For those my age that's a one bar electric fire for 27 and a half minutes.

Does this small Battery capacity make the Yaris Cross AWD a mild hybrid? I thought it was a full hybrid. Oh well, nice car anyway.

[Pedantic side note: you can't have 70 times less capacity; you can have 70 times more, or you can have 1/70th. 70 times less is a mathematical and logical impossibility because of the meaning of the word 'times' in this context.]

 

[Cyker]

Damnit I *knew* some pedant would pull me up on that!!!    

I wrote it the other way round (i.e. the bz has 70x more) originally but didn't change it because it's still perfectly understandable and I am lazy  

The size of the Battery has no bearing on what kind of hybrid it is - The reason 'mild hybrids' are mild is because the electric motor does almost nothing; It regens a tiny bit of energy during braking and provides a tiny bit of extra torque when accelerating. It's really stupid - All cars could be classified as mild hybrids; All the manufacturer would have to do is not turn the starter motor off while the car is running!

IMHO they shouldn't even be allowed to be classified as hybrids as it's just marketting BS (i.e. lying) at that point.

Whenever I see someone do a hybrid group test and include e.g. Ford or Suzuki mild hybrids with a Yaris it makes me want to throw a brick or some other suitably weighty object at the people responsible for compounding such a lack of understanding.

 

A real hybrid drivetrain is far more capable - At the very least the electric motor should actually be able to move the car on its own at decent speeds for a decent length of time. The Toyota system is unique in that it's the only series-parallel hybrid in mass production (I think!), i.e. the ICE can drive the wheels or act as a generator and switch freely between the two at any time, whereas in most hybrids it can only do one or the other, i.e. either acts to drive the wheels with or without the electric motor (And charges using regen only, either from braking or just resisting the movement of the car when the ICE is providing power), or acts as a glorified (Or literal!) diesel generator while the electric motor does all of the propulsion.

The BMW i8, Hyundai Ioniq Hybrid and Honda Insight are examples of parallel hybrids, while the BMW i3 REx and Top Gear Hammerhead Eagle i-Thrust  are examples of series hybrids.

 

[RobertR]

Quote

HV battery SOC is maintained within its predefined operational window of 30%–70%.

In this range, the Battery energy density is highest, so usable capacity is pretty high, even when your range is "only" 40% of total theoretical capacity.

I think they know well in Toyota.

[TonyHSD]

Anyone has their awd Yaris delivered? Next week might be a white one in some areas in uk and a great time to test their capabilities. 

 

[anchorman]

18 hours ago, TonyHSD said:

Anyone has their awd Yaris delivered? Next week might be a white one in some areas in uk and a great time to test their capabilities. 

 

January I’m told by the dealer (originally November but the Chinese continue to go deeper into Covid so supply chains still up the wall).  
 

I’ve got no intentions of driving my cross up a field unless I end up in one.  It only needs to cope with snow and to that end, the Continental cross climates are ordered.  

[Garth.]

Hello there and to begin with, I'd like to share some info about Yaris Cross AWD-i system and respond to some statements. Let's start with technical data.
Rear axle is powered by a Q510 1MM electric motor, generating 3.9 kW (5.3 HP) and 52 Nm. It is simple induction motor (no energy recovery function like in Rav4 Hybrid), the amount of oil in the unit is ~1.3l, the weight of the unit is ~30 kg.
The motor has two shafts/gearings with final ratio of 10,487. This should result in a rear axle torque at the level of ~545 Nm but rear axle on its own is not able to push the car. Even if only one front wheel loses traction, car needs help from traction control system. Under full throttle AWD-i system is always active up to ~40 km/h, up to 70 km/h it is active if slippage is detected.
Non-hybrid Yaris Cross AWD uses traditional awd system with driveshaft and JTEKT electromagnetic coupling (ITCC), there are different driving modes - Mud&Sand and Rock&Dirt.

On 10/10/2022 at 9:17 AM, TonyHSD said:

Here a video shows exactly that. Nothing wrong with the car or if you really like it it’s a good choice, but if the awd system is of importance for you and your driving needs you maybe looking for something else. 

 

 

On 10/10/2022 at 10:44 AM, anchorman said:

none representative zero friction comparison

 

On 10/10/2022 at 10:33 PM, anchorman said:

zero friction roller test in comparison to a Vitara done in Suzuki dealership then there is little more to say on that matter

  

On 1/19/2023 at 10:56 AM, anchorman said:

5HP motor has been proven by a Suzuki dealer to be an utter waste of money

 

On 3/8/2023 at 7:49 AM, anchorman said:

It’s a zero friction test at a Dacia dealer.

 

Suzuki dealer has nothing to do with Yaris Cross test. Neither does Dacia dealer. Both just shared the cars for the tests (like dealers of Honda, Mazda, Jeep, Hyundai, Audi, Mitsubishi, Kia and... Toyota, which shared non hybrid Rav4).

This is not zero friction test. Roller under load has similar resistance to ice or black ice. Besides - even real zero friction happens in real conditions when passing any diagonal obstacle with wheels in the air. The problem is not in the test but in AWD-i system. And more specifically - in underpowered rear electric motor. And even more specifically - in its low starting torque (locked rotor torque). It's simply too low to push the car by itself. It only does it job when car is already moving. Here's how Toyota explains that:

"The AWD-i all wheel drive is a system in which the rear axle is driven by an electric motor. There is no mechanical connection between the front and rear axles like in on-demand systems. A situation where the front wheels have no grip and the rear wheels have 100% traction is not natural and practically never occurs while driving. The electric all wheel drive is programmed in such a way that the electric motor does not transmit the full torque when the wheels are completely stopped. When moving off, torque transmitted is limited and smoothly increases when the controller notices the wheel rotation. The value of the initial torque depends on the conditions in which the car is. If the sensors detect that we are moving e.g. uphill, then torque is higher. When the front wheels are on rollers and rotate freely and the car is on a flat surface etc., low torque is transmitted to the rear wheels, which is not sufficient to 'push' the front axle out of the rollers. Since the controller does not see the rotation of the rear wheels, it does not increase the torque. It's a feature of this type of drive."

Now, if you look at the test in real conditions, in some situations you will see the same problems as during roller tests. Examples during Rasto Chvala test:

On 10/10/2022 at 10:21 PM, BobHos said:

 

 

Notice what happens in the video at 28:02 - nice camera view where we can see all four wheels. Rasto starts - front axle is spinning, after a while the car starts to roll backwords - front wheels are still spinning, and the rear ones - they neither push the car forward nor hold it in place, they start to spin backwards - according to the direction of the car's rolling. Just like a front wheel drive car. Later on there are no such extreme situations, although several times we see the lack of support from the rear axle (34:10, 34:30, 46:30), and finally Rasto is forced to drive the hill in reverse gear...

Another example:

On 10/10/2022 at 10:51 AM, anchorman said:

 

At the end of the video you can see the system struggling on diagonal obstacle when one front wheel is in the air. Dashboard view shows the same thing as in Rasto Chvala test (46:30) - one front wheel is slipping, torque is applied to the rear but car is not moving. 

On 10/10/2022 at 1:51 PM, TonyHSD said:

I follow this channel since 9 years and their early days, these guys are fully independent testers and does not care about dealers or brands. They only show one thing, capabilities of the different makes and models all wheel drive systems.

Thank you!

To sum up - some automotive journalists started to call these systems "mild AWD". Imho - that's a correct and true name which should be officially used. AWD-i of Yaris Cross is definitely a good helper but... Just a helper. Like ESP or traction control. It won't do the job, it will help to do the job. Some Toyota representative called it "a little push" - very accurate.

[TonyHSD]

18 minutes ago, Garth. said:

Hello there and to begin with, I'd like to share some info about Yaris Cross AWD-i system and respond to some statements. Let's start with technical data.
Rear axle is powered by a Q510 1MM electric motor, generating 3.9 kW (5.3 HP) and 52 Nm. It is simple induction motor (no energy recovery function like in Rav4 Hybrid), the amount of oil in the unit is ~1.3l, the weight of the unit is ~30 kg.
The motor has two shafts/gearings with final ratio of 10,487. This should result in a rear axle torque at the level of ~545 Nm but rear axle on its own is not able to push the car. Even if only one front wheel loses traction, car needs help from traction control system. Under full throttle AWD-i system is always active up to ~40 km/h, up to 70 km/h it is active if slippage is detected.
Non-hybrid Yaris Cross AWD uses traditional awd system with driveshaft and JTEKT electromagnetic coupling (ITCC), there are different driving modes - Mud&Sand and Rock&Dirt.

   

 

 

  

 

 

Suzuki dealer has nothing to do with Yaris Cross test. Neither does Dacia dealer. Both just shared the cars for the tests (like dealers of Honda, Mazda, Jeep, Hyundai, Audi, Mitsubishi, Kia and... Toyota, which shared non hybrid Rav4).

This is not zero friction test. Roller under load has similar resistance to ice or black ice. Besides - even real zero friction happens in real conditions when passing any diagonal obstacle with wheels in the air. The problem is not in the test but in AWD-i system. And more specifically - in underpowered rear electric motor. And even more specifically - in its low starting torque (locked rotor torque). It's simply too low to push the car by itself. It only does it job when car is already moving. Here's how Toyota explains that:

"The AWD-i all wheel drive is a system in which the rear axle is driven by an electric motor. There is no mechanical connection between the front and rear axles like in on-demand systems. A situation where the front wheels have no grip and the rear wheels have 100% traction is not natural and practically never occurs while driving. The electric all wheel drive is programmed in such a way that the electric motor does not transmit the full torque when the wheels are completely stopped. When moving off, torque transmitted is limited and smoothly increases when the controller notices the wheel rotation. The value of the initial torque depends on the conditions in which the car is. If the sensors detect that we are moving e.g. uphill, then torque is higher. When the front wheels are on rollers and rotate freely and the car is on a flat surface etc., low torque is transmitted to the rear wheels, which is not sufficient to 'push' the front axle out of the rollers. Since the controller does not see the rotation of the rear wheels, it does not increase the torque. It's a feature of this type of drive."

Now, if you look at the test in real conditions, in some situations you will see the same problems as during roller tests. Examples during Rasto Chvala test:

Notice what happens in the video at 28:02 - nice camera view where we can see all four wheels. Rasto starts - front axle is spinning, after a while the car starts to roll backwords - front wheels are still spinning, and the rear ones - they neither push the car forward nor hold it in place, they start to spin backwards - according to the direction of the car's rolling. Just like a front wheel drive car. Later on there are no such extreme situations, although several times we see the lack of support from the rear axle (34:10, 34:30, 46:30), and finally Rasto is forced to drive the hill in reverse gear...

 

Another example:

At the end of the video you can see the system struggling on diagonal obstacle when one front wheel is in the air. Dashboard view shows the same thing as in Rasto Chvala test (46:30) - one front wheel is slipping, torque is applied to the rear but car is not moving. 

Thank you!

 

To sum up - some automotive journalists started to call these systems "mild AWD". Imho - that's a correct and true name which should be officially used. AWD-i of Yaris Cross is definitely a good helper but... Just a helper. Like ESP or traction control. It won't do the job, it will help to do the job. Some Toyota representative called it "a little push" - very accurate.

Hi Garth and welcome. 👍
Very well said and true. The Yaris cross hybrid awd-I it’s not a real awd system indeed but more like “a fwd car with a rwd  assistant “. 
I will agree that cars equipped with this system will have some benefit over fwd cars in slippery conditions but only when there is a sufficient grip on the front axle and when there is non then there will be no help from the rear axle at all. For many other users this is a big deal and makes the awd -I no better then fwd only Yaris cross. 
When driving on terrain , dirt roads not necessarily a off road or anything that a normal Yaris can’t go the awd cross actually will be less capable going over potholes and obstacles because there are two differentials to take care off and therefore in an events of axle twisting and because the car has no enough wheel travel torque will bleed through any one wheel and the car computer will not be able coupe with this situation as a result of software set up limited by the system technical specs and the car will get stuck. Where the fwd Yaris cross can lift rear wheels in the air and as long as one front wheel has grip the TC will lock the other one and will help the car continue ahead.  Conclusion: The awd -I in Yaris cross helps only when there is enough grip on the front axle and it does not help when front axle looses traction. 
No offence to all awd Yaris crosses owners.
Just saying the truth and sharing personal opinion.