yaris cross 4 wheel drive capability

[BobHos]

2 hours ago, Garth. said:

Hello there and to begin with, I'd like to share some info about Yaris Cross AWD-i system and respond to some statements. Let's start with technical data.
Rear axle is powered by a Q510 1MM electric motor, generating 3.9 kW (5.3 HP) and 52 Nm. It is simple induction motor (no energy recovery function like in Rav4 Hybrid), the amount of oil in the unit is ~1.3l, the weight of the unit is ~30 kg.
The motor has two shafts/gearings with final ratio of 10,487. This should result in a rear axle torque at the level of ~545 Nm but rear axle on its own is not able to push the car. Even if only one front wheel loses traction, car needs help from traction control system. Under full throttle AWD-i system is always active up to ~40 km/h, up to 70 km/h it is active if slippage is detected.
Non-hybrid Yaris Cross AWD uses traditional awd system with driveshaft and JTEKT electromagnetic coupling (ITCC), there are different driving modes - Mud&Sand and Rock&Dirt.

 

 

  

 

 

Suzuki dealer has nothing to do with Yaris Cross test. Neither does Dacia dealer. Both just shared the cars for the tests (like dealers of Honda, Mazda, Jeep, Hyundai, Audi, Mitsubishi, Kia and... Toyota, which shared non hybrid Rav4).

This is not zero friction test. Roller under load has similar resistance to ice or black ice. Besides - even real zero friction happens in real conditions when passing any diagonal obstacle with wheels in the air. The problem is not in the test but in AWD-i system. And more specifically - in underpowered rear electric motor. And even more specifically - in its low starting torque (locked rotor torque). It's simply too low to push the car by itself. It only does it job when car is already moving. Here's how Toyota explains that:

"The AWD-i all wheel drive is a system in which the rear axle is driven by an electric motor. There is no mechanical connection between the front and rear axles like in on-demand systems. A situation where the front wheels have no grip and the rear wheels have 100% traction is not natural and practically never occurs while driving. The electric all wheel drive is programmed in such a way that the electric motor does not transmit the full torque when the wheels are completely stopped. When moving off, torque transmitted is limited and smoothly increases when the controller notices the wheel rotation. The value of the initial torque depends on the conditions in which the car is. If the sensors detect that we are moving e.g. uphill, then torque is higher. When the front wheels are on rollers and rotate freely and the car is on a flat surface etc., low torque is transmitted to the rear wheels, which is not sufficient to 'push' the front axle out of the rollers. Since the controller does not see the rotation of the rear wheels, it does not increase the torque. It's a feature of this type of drive."

Now, if you look at the test in real conditions, in some situations you will see the same problems as during roller tests. Examples during Rasto Chvala test:

Notice what happens in the video at 28:02 - nice camera view where we can see all four wheels. Rasto starts - front axle is spinning, after a while the car starts to roll backwords - front wheels are still spinning, and the rear ones - they neither push the car forward nor hold it in place, they start to spin backwards - according to the direction of the car's rolling. Just like a front wheel drive car. Later on there are no such extreme situations, although several times we see the lack of support from the rear axle (34:10, 34:30, 46:30), and finally Rasto is forced to drive the hill in reverse gear...

Another example:

At the end of the video you can see the system struggling on diagonal obstacle when one front wheel is in the air. Dashboard view shows the same thing as in Rasto Chvala test (46:30) - one front wheel is slipping, torque is applied to the rear but car is not moving. 

Thank you!

To sum up - some automotive journalists started to call these systems "mild AWD". Imho - that's a correct and true name which should be officially used. AWD-i of Yaris Cross is definitely a good helper but... Just a helper. Like ESP or traction control. It won't do the job, it will help to do the job. Some Toyota representative called it "a little push" - very accurate.

Hi Garth

First of all a small point you show me as a quote on "10.10.2022 10.21 BobHos said" but this was not a quote of mine. What you say is very detailed and interesting and you obviously are very knowledgeable on car details and dynamics. Can you explain to me how my Cross awd car was able to start off on very steep (1 in 12 incline) slippery surfaces (once on hard ice and once on deep snow with underlying soft ice) when my Yaris non-awd couldn't. The cars were side by side on exactly similar surfaces and both cars had almost identical tyre profiles which I carefully checked before the tests.

[Garth.]

@TonyHSD I don't think that two differentials on AWD-i can cause the problem - Trail mode actually does very good job on front axle, even if one rear wheel has no grip. There's only one trick - it comes to serious action when petrol engine is started. Soon we'll compare on rollers the traction control operation of FWD and AWD-i - then we'll know the answer.

 

@BobHosI am sorry, there were a lot of quotes so I could have mixed some. Answering your question - torque applied to the rear axle doesn't mean that wheels spin. It is unknown what is the starting torque of a Q510 motor but for sure there is some value - not enough to push the car but maybe enough to prevent the car from rolling back (for 1-2 seconds) - and that may be enough to get the grip by front and move forward. So there is no push but also no force pulling the car backwards. And when the car is already moving - according to Toyota explanation - rear torque goes up so you're moving on.

[BobHos]

Thanks for your reply Garth. You are very knowledgeable and your information is appreciated. I would like to say, however, that the "proof of the pudding is in the eating" I am fully aware of the limitations of a weak rear wheel drive but I am totally confident that the Cross awd will do what I wanted it to do. I was very careful when I performed the tests because I would not have wanted to wrongly influence people looking at its capabilities with a view to purchasing one. I particularly found your description of the rear motor torques stationery and rotating very interesting.

[anchorman]

3 hours ago, Garth. said:

Hello there and to begin with, I'd like to share some info about Yaris Cross AWD-i system and respond to some statements. Let's start with technical data.
Rear axle is powered by a Q510 1MM electric motor, generating 3.9 kW (5.3 HP) and 52 Nm. It is simple induction motor (no energy recovery function like in Rav4 Hybrid), the amount of oil in the unit is ~1.3l, the weight of the unit is ~30 kg.
The motor has two shafts/gearings with final ratio of 10,487. This should result in a rear axle torque at the level of ~545 Nm but rear axle on its own is not able to push the car. Even if only one front wheel loses traction, car needs help from traction control system. Under full throttle AWD-i system is always active up to ~40 km/h, up to 70 km/h it is active if slippage is detected.
Non-hybrid Yaris Cross AWD uses traditional awd system with driveshaft and JTEKT electromagnetic coupling (ITCC), there are different driving modes - Mud&Sand and Rock&Dirt.

 

 

  

 

 

Suzuki dealer has nothing to do with Yaris Cross test. Neither does Dacia dealer. Both just shared the cars for the tests (like dealers of Honda, Mazda, Jeep, Hyundai, Audi, Mitsubishi, Kia and... Toyota, which shared non hybrid Rav4).

This is not zero friction test. Roller under load has similar resistance to ice or black ice. Besides - even real zero friction happens in real conditions when passing any diagonal obstacle with wheels in the air. The problem is not in the test but in AWD-i system. And more specifically - in underpowered rear electric motor. And even more specifically - in its low starting torque (locked rotor torque). It's simply too low to push the car by itself. It only does it job when car is already moving. Here's how Toyota explains that:

"The AWD-i all wheel drive is a system in which the rear axle is driven by an electric motor. There is no mechanical connection between the front and rear axles like in on-demand systems. A situation where the front wheels have no grip and the rear wheels have 100% traction is not natural and practically never occurs while driving. The electric all wheel drive is programmed in such a way that the electric motor does not transmit the full torque when the wheels are completely stopped. When moving off, torque transmitted is limited and smoothly increases when the controller notices the wheel rotation. The value of the initial torque depends on the conditions in which the car is. If the sensors detect that we are moving e.g. uphill, then torque is higher. When the front wheels are on rollers and rotate freely and the car is on a flat surface etc., low torque is transmitted to the rear wheels, which is not sufficient to 'push' the front axle out of the rollers. Since the controller does not see the rotation of the rear wheels, it does not increase the torque. It's a feature of this type of drive."

Now, if you look at the test in real conditions, in some situations you will see the same problems as during roller tests. Examples during Rasto Chvala test:

Notice what happens in the video at 28:02 - nice camera view where we can see all four wheels. Rasto starts - front axle is spinning, after a while the car starts to roll backwords - front wheels are still spinning, and the rear ones - they neither push the car forward nor hold it in place, they start to spin backwards - according to the direction of the car's rolling. Just like a front wheel drive car. Later on there are no such extreme situations, although several times we see the lack of support from the rear axle (34:10, 34:30, 46:30), and finally Rasto is forced to drive the hill in reverse gear...

Another example:

At the end of the video you can see the system struggling on diagonal obstacle when one front wheel is in the air. Dashboard view shows the same thing as in Rasto Chvala test (46:30) - one front wheel is slipping, torque is applied to the rear but car is not moving. 

Thank you!

To sum up - some automotive journalists started to call these systems "mild AWD". Imho - that's a correct and true name which should be officially used. AWD-i of Yaris Cross is definitely a good helper but... Just a helper. Like ESP or traction control. It won't do the job, it will help to do the job. Some Toyota representative called it "a little push" - very accurate.

Yawn 🥱 

[Garth.]

@BobHos  Thanks. If you have any opportunity - try to perform the same test but in dynamic way - that is under hard acceleration to intentionally lose the grip of front wheels.

Toyota Poland, as well as some automotive journalists took the Yaris Cross for sand driving. On flat surface the system was doing fine as long as the car was moving, no way FWD could drive that far. But when car got stuck - there was no backup from rear axle. The trick to force rear axle somehow to work was decreasing the throttle. Uphill sand driving was similar to FWD. I think in April there will be some wider relation from that. 

 

58 minutes ago, anchorman said:

Yawn 🥱

What does your yawn bring to the topic? 

[anchorman]

5 minutes ago, Garth. said:

@BobHos  Thanks. If you have any opportunity - try to perform the same test but in dynamic way - that is under hard acceleration to intentionally lose the grip of front wheels.

Toyota Poland, as well as some automotive journalists took the Yaris Cross for sand driving. On flat surface the system was doing fine as long as the car was moving, no way FWD could drive that far. But when car got stuck - there was no backup from rear axle. The trick to force rear axle somehow to work was decreasing the throttle. Uphill sand driving was similar to FWD. I think in April there will be some wider relation from that. 

 

What does your yawn bring to the topic? 

Black ice tests as you prefer to call them bear no resemblance to what happens in practice.  I don’t see the point.  

[Garth.]

@anchorman That's your opinion which I respect. Mine is different. 

If the results of these tests of Yaris Cross show the same faults as in real conditions - they must simulate some real situations. Simple as that. 

[anchorman]

29 minutes ago, Garth. said:

@anchorman That's your opinion which I respect. Mine is different. 

If the results of these tests of Yaris Cross show the same faults as in real conditions - they must simulate some real situations. Simple as that. 

That’s the thing Garth. I’ll never ever knowingly choose to drive on black ice because then it isn’t a cars capabilities, it’s the laws of physics that take over.  I’ve got a lot of experience of driving in snow and although I haven’t had the Cross long, the little amount of driving in very significant snow has proven it to be very capable.  The roller test are not representative.  I spent a lot of time in vehicle development and we never played games testing something we had no interest in.  You said yourself, the rear motor doesn’t need to be powerful to drive in real world conditions but it will go where a FWD won’t.  If you live and work where I do, that’s all that matters.  

[Garth.]

Forget then about roller tests and don't attack the dealers, it's pointless. Focus on how the system fails in real conditions, showed by automotive journalists or reported by private users. The fact that it fails exactly the same way on rollers - just forget it. Forget also about diagonal obstacles, not representative to.

29 minutes ago, anchorman said:

You said yourself, the rear motor doesn’t need to be powerful to drive in real world conditions

Quote me please. 

[Max_Headroom]

I haven't read the full thread but my take on the subject is a 4WD vehicle designed to go off road is always going to be the best at doing so the Yaris Cross AWD system is never going to compete but that's not what it is about, is the Yaris AWD system better than 2WD yes,  if you want to go off road buy something else if you want peace of mind in the few days we have ice and snow here get an AWD and put decent tyres on it.

[anchorman]

27 minutes ago, Garth. said:

Forget then about roller tests and don't attack the dealers, it's pointless. Focus on how the system fails in real conditions, showed by automotive journalists or reported by private users. The fact that it fails exactly the same way on rollers - just forget it. Forget also about diagonal obstacles, not representative to.

Quote me please. 

 

I already had forgotten after driving in the real world conditions and not on ball rollers.  Anybody who buys a Toyota Yaris Cross and then tests it by diagonal off ground stranding it is not proving it either.  Now we get to the crux of it, there are manufacturers that will sponsor these pointless tests to demonstrate other manufacturers “failings”.  My own tests show that it does everything I want and more.  I don’t want a Suzuki with a mechanical driveline nor am I interested how it drives off rollers or whether it has enough drag in the transmission to urge it off a ramp with diagonally opposed wheels lifted.  If I wanted that, I’d use my brain and buy a Land Rover.   I don’t need a lengthy explanation on how the rear axle works, I’d got that information long before I bought it.  Let me put this to you.  Instead of doing pointless tests in comparison with a car nobody wants, drive it on a normal road with snow on it like 100% of Yaris Cross customers want.  Look, if you want to perform these tests for some strange reason, crack on but don’t get upset when somebody doesn’t fall for it.  

[anchorman]

2 minutes ago, Max_Headroom said:

I haven't read the full thread but my take on the subject is a 4WD vehicle designed to go off road is always going to be the best at doing so the Yaris Cross AWD system is never going to compete but that's not what it is about, is the Yaris AWD system better than 2WD yes,  if you want to go off road buy something else if you want peace of mind in the few days we have ice and snow here get an AWD and put decent tyres on it.

Exactly.  100% correct.  

[Garth.]

@anchorman You are way out of topic. Talking about sponsoring, Suzuki, rollers (which you say you forgot about but you are still writing about them) etc. 

At the same time you are ignoring faults of Yaris AWD-i system shown in real world tests - exactly there, where you want me to drive it - on normal roads with snow. 

One more thing - I don't need your advices. I'm not a part of any automotive business, I do what I like to do, if you don't like it - then ignore it, I think I stated it clearly when asked you to forget it.

In my first comment I presented technical data of the system, including Toyota explanation of its tuning, plus reasons for such tuning. If you don't need it - ignore it. But you're not alone here, some other users may find the info useful. 

[Max_Headroom]

I think this demonstrates that for most of us the AWD system is more than good enough to get us where we need to go.

 

 

[Garth.]

32 minutes ago, Max_Headroom said:

I think this demonstrates that for most of us the AWD system is more than good enough to get us where we need to go.

 

 

This is completely different awd system, it has literally nothing in common with AWD-i of Yaris Cross. And actually it is the most advanced Toyota system, not standard but used only in a few versions of Rav4. System is entirely disconnecting the driveshaft but the most important thing is that it doesn't have classic rear differential but double clutch pack unit, each rear wheel may be powered independently. 

[anchorman]

2 hours ago, Garth. said:

@anchorman You are way out of topic. Talking about sponsoring, Suzuki, rollers (which you say you forgot about but you are still writing about them) etc. 

At the same time you are ignoring faults of Yaris AWD-i system shown in real world tests - exactly there, where you want me to drive it - on normal roads with snow. 

One more thing - I don't need your advices. I'm not a part of any automotive business, I do what I like to do, if you don't like it - then ignore it, I think I stated it clearly when asked you to forget it.

In my first comment I presented technical data of the system, including Toyota explanation of its tuning, plus reasons for such tuning. If you don't need it - ignore it. But you're not alone here, some other users may find the info useful. 

There are no real world faults.  Mine works perfectly in the snow, I presume it isn’t a special that Toyota made just for me.   I’ve never tried it on rollers but I don’t need to because I never park on any.

 

However, I shall go back to sleep where I was when you said it didn’t help the topic 🥱

[Garth.]

10 minutes ago, anchorman said:

There are no real world faults.

Unfortunately there are, pointed out in Rasto Chvala snow driving test. Rear axle doing nothing a few times is just a half of a problem. But rolling back with only front wheels powered, in an awd car, is a serious fault. And going uphill on reverse gear cause it can't do it normally isn't what you expect from awd system.

Stop talking again and again about the rollers, are they your obsession or what? Subject is over, discussion is about real conditions. 

Check the video which @Max_Headroom linked. Rear axle of Rav4 starts immediately and it is working and spinning all the time. On the same channel you will find the Lexus UX with Q510 rear motor, tested on the same snowy hill - rear axle is doing nothing, there's only constant front overspin. That's the difference.

[IT Troll]

3 hours ago, anchorman said:

there are manufacturers that will sponsor these pointless tests to demonstrate other manufacturers “failings”.

Do you have any evidence that this is the case? I know the roller test guys often film in dealer lots, but this is simply because they are using demonstrator vehicles. Whilst you can question the relevance to real world driving, I don’t think it is fair to claim there is a nefarious agenda.

[BobHos]

Ah well guys in the words of the childhood song "and the little one said time for bed, roll over, roll over..... " - no pun intended!  the comments have all been interesting and, at times conflicting and,  perhaps, a wee bit confrontational but, what the hell, that is how we learn.

My final tuppence worth is to repeat what I have said in earlier posts which is that I am totally convinced, after my fairly extensive tests, that drivers with an adequate winter driving knowledge and skill will have absolutely no problems driving on our roads in wintery conditions with the Yaris Cross awd-i. Pity I didn't film and post  my testing sessions but that was impracticable at between 5 am and 6am with my potential film crew (family) still snoring in their cosy beds

[anchorman]

41 minutes ago, IT Troll said:

Do you have any evidence that this is the case? I know the roller test guys often film in dealer lots, but this is simply because they are using demonstrator vehicles. Whilst you can question the relevance to real world driving, I don’t think it is fair to claim there is a nefarious agenda.

I love the word nefarious, reminds me of the Minions. I don’t have any evidence and don’t have any objections to them testing in a dealer car park until they compared it with a vehicle of the same brand.  There’s an agenda behind that because to demonstrate the so call failings of the Cross, you only need to test it in isolation.  However, after years of testing for major vehicle manufacturers, I’ve learned to take noting I can’t validate myself at face value - be aware that it could have some substance but don’t over react to it.  There are two of us here that have these AWD Cross’s and neither have found them dangerous and we’re both entirely satisfied with their performance in very bad weather.  No need to turn to YouTube for me, I’ve seen what I need to see.  

[Garth.]

8 hours ago, anchorman said:

I don’t have any evidence and don’t have any objections to them testing in a dealer car park until they compared it with a vehicle of the same brand

We compare cars, sometimes of the same brand, sometimes different. Yaris Cross was compared also with GR Yaris, soon it will be compared with hybrid Rav4.

 

8 hours ago, anchorman said:

There’s an agenda behind that

Whose agenda? 

[TonyHSD]

15 hours ago, Max_Headroom said:

I haven't read the full thread but my take on the subject is a 4WD vehicle designed to go off road is always going to be the best at doing so the Yaris Cross AWD system is never going to compete but that's not what it is about, is the Yaris AWD system better than 2WD yes,  if you want to go off road buy something else if you want peace of mind in the few days we have ice and snow here get an AWD and put decent tyres on it.

Or perhaps put a suitable tyres on your 2wd car and you will be just as capable. 👍
There is absolutely no point of going against each other on this topic.
There are always gonna be two sides and we all have some experience and knowledge plus personal choices and thoughts about this matter. 
For me the more suitable version it will be the fwd Yaris for various reasons.
For all others with awd, I can understand their point and I agreed with them, the awd indeed will help you and provide some extra grip and peace of mind in slippery conditions especially on hill starts, simple physics.
Where the system will fail to help  is when one or more wheels loose grip. The tests shows exactly that and if you go on Toyota uk Facebook page and read the comments you will see exactly that been confirmed by some of the owners of Toyota hybrids with awd  and particularly Yaris cross and rav4.
For most of England Yaris cross awd is absolutely enough for all situations winters can offer here, even the fwd with all season tyres will be just fine. 
 

[anchorman]

2 hours ago, Garth. said:

We compare cars, sometimes of the same brand, sometimes different. Yaris Cross was compared also with GR Yaris, soon it will be compared with hybrid Rav4.

 

Whose agenda? 

You’d have to ask whoever decided to compare a Yaris Cross with a Suzuki on rollers.  Look Garth, I’m not out to intentionally rubbish your videos but you joined this forum with the sole intention of justifying and validating them.  Your introduction also set out to give the impression of authority on the subject.  I don’t know you or your experience or knowledge or capabilities but I know mine and I have come from an environment that says you don’t except claims without fully understanding them.  You didn’t ask for owners experience, your experiments are definitive to you.  Tony seems to like these comparisons and he holds a lot of faith in them and I must admit, I didn’t know what to expect the first time I drove mine in the snow.  It didn’t behave anything like those tests, it behaved impeccably.  Robert has done a lot more tests up in Scotland where the weather is more consistently bad than it is here but he had very good results too.  My experience is comparable with his - I tried to unsettle mine in the snow and I couldn’t, I repeat, it behaved impeccably.  For that reason, I’m going to lean against my results and his than something on YouTube that I neither could witness to see what’s being done or that I find in any way relevant - the car not only has to overcome zero resistance but it has to climb out of the rollers too.  If Toyota want to protect the rear motor from overload or it simply isn’t powerful enough - I don’t care, it works perfectly doing what I want it to do.  What I would say to potential owners that for whatever reason, feel they might benefit from AWD, if you are concerned about whether it will help in the snow - two of us have had extremely confident results.  If you want a budget car with a mechanical driveline that will climb out of rollers, buy a Suzuki.  It is in almost every other way inferior to a Yaris Cross but it will get you out of the rollers.  You have apparently done some tests in the snow for YouTube.  I’ve not seen those but it doesn’t really matter to me because mine does what I want it to do.  We can go round in circles but I don’t agree that your roller tests prove anything, thats my prerogative and like you said, I have the right to ignore them.  You can’t impose your opinion on me.

[anchorman]

15 minutes ago, TonyHSD said:

Or perhaps put a suitable tyres on your 2wd car and you will be just as capable. 👍
 

I agree with everything else you say but this depends on whether you put the same tyres on the AWD in which case, the AWD is still a stepped improvement over a FWD.  If you want to come up here and dig my drive out at 2am every time it snows, I’ll save a couple of grand on my next cross.  You won’t, you’ll be lay in bed so I’ll go for what I know.

[TonyHSD]

11 minutes ago, anchorman said:

I agree with everything else you say but this depends on whether you put the same tyres on the AWD in which case, the AWD is still a stepped improvement over a FWD.  If you want to come up here and dig my drive out at 2am every time it snows, I’ll save a couple of grand on my next cross.  You won’t, you’ll be lay in bed so I’ll go for what I know.

Deal, no argument 👍