Range test shows really bad results

[bZ4X]

On 11/8/2022 at 8:15 PM, W id said:

Terrifying test results!! This is a Norwegian test that is well known for their testing. They say they had to redo the test because they couldn’t believe the results. 
they claim that the usable battery is 62kw and the range is about 300km. 
 

see the link and use google translate. 
 

https://www.elbil24.no/nyheter/rekkevidde-skrell-for-toyotas-nye-elbil/77691484?fbclid=IwAR0u5irePtRpxvwxB8bqLdU8WeLDIhOsf0Dx_v0yp2SA3sQcSuFfpH_zN7k

So sad 😔. Hope, they will be mistaken. 

"One time we fully charged the Battery again in the form of AC charging (home charging), and the other time by DC charging (fast charging). Both times we ended up with 62 kWh as the final result."

[W id]

Terrifying test results!! This is a Norwegian test that is well known for their testing. They say they had to redo the test because they couldn’t believe the results. 
they claim that the usable Battery is 62kw and the range is about 300km. 

see the link and use google translate. 

https://www.elbil24.no/nyheter/rekkevidde-skrell-for-toyotas-nye-elbil/77691484?fbclid=IwAR0u5irePtRpxvwxB8bqLdU8WeLDIhOsf0Dx_v0yp2SA3sQcSuFfpH_zN7k

[Guest]

2 hours ago, bZ4X said:

and the other time by DC charging (fast charging).

There must be something wrong with this test as with DC charger they will never be able to charge to 100% duet to Battery protection system??? It's very weird review tbh. with DC charger they'll be able to charge only up to 56.8KW...where they've got 62 from(90%)??

 

[ernieb]

Sadly, I don't seem to be able to translate the review into English.

[bZ4X]

7 hours ago, xbox-vibes said:

There must be something wrong with this test as with DC charger they will never be able to charge to 100% duet to battery protection system??? It's very weird review tbh. with DC charger they'll be able to charge only up to 56.8KW...where they've got 62 from(90%)??

 

DC charger charges batteries up to 100%. But after 80% it reduces kwh to protect batteries turns into slow dc charging. 

[Guest]

Oh, ok, learned something new today. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, ernieb said:

Sadly, I don't seem to be able to translate the review into English.

Use chrome browser

[swoop5511]

Some stuff in the test definitely does not feel right and based on the numbers don’t add up.

Before we start in, they’re testing against WLTP range and claiming failure to meet that range.  According to Which UK (July 2022) only 1 car since 2017 that managed to meet declared WLTP range. All other cars are well below. See info further down. We can discuss the value of WLTP or lack thereof separately ….

Back to my value, last week in mild temperatures (AC/heating off, fan on), I was averaging between 3.4-3.6 miles per KW driving all week. My commute and general driving so far

If as they claim the useable Battery is only 62kw:

at 95% SOC I have a range of 254miles – which would mean a 267miles at 100% - which in return would mean 4.31 miles per KW. And that would be a ridiculous number for a boxy SUV like the BZ4X 

For example, what I would consider direct competitors in size and weight: Skoda Enyaq is 3.2m per KW & VW ID4 is 3.4m per KW. I wouldn’t compare the BZ4X for a model 3 or Zoe or ID3 or other high efficiency cars.

Unfortunately, software is where the car is currently let down. For example, I cant get a numerical value (%) for SOC from the car – only get it from the app and there the connectivity is very hit and miss for me. There is a lot of guessing and napkin maths going on when the car should be clearly displaying all the relevant figures

I am fortunate enough that I get free access to lvl1 charging at work. (It’s a dedicated / purpose build set up – i.e. can safely use for 8h+) and I actually haven’t needed to charge at home on the wallbox or on the road. 2-2.5 days charging at work is enough to get me through a week worth of driving.

Here, is where the numbers don’t add up, assuming that I am pulling steady 2.3kw per h on the lvl1 charge (?) and I “think” I get approx. 30% charge in a day (again would be nice if I could actually check this properly in the car) then that would in fact equate to a 61.3 useable Battery.

But that leads back to a stupidly efficient car and I rather believe that Toyota is not displaying the SOC correctly vs not displaying consumption correctly. Again software is the issue, a fixable issue, but unless I completely missed something - you cannot see the SOC displayed in a numerical value anywhere through the car. You have the bar on the “hud” and that’s it.

Going back to my displayed average of 3.5m per KW, assuming the rule of thumb that car has realistic range of 80% of WLTP meaning for the FWD claimed WLTP range is 317.5m, 80% of that is 254m and if multiply my average from last week with the Battery size (3.5*71.5) I come to 250.25 which puts me in the 80% of WLTP range and more importantly re battery size also very close to what I saw when I received the car with 95% SOC.

Re rule of thumb. See link below which confirm my stated “rule of thumb” assumptions

First, Which UK (independent tester) who states their tests show on average real world range is 18% less than WLTP. The article has a lot of info re range and is very worth reading.

https://www.which.co.uk/news/article/revealed-the-truth-about-electric-car-mileage-aC1bt9t5jU50

Secondly, green.car confirms in their testing that cold weather driving removes another 10-20% range on top of the 20% reduction against original WLTP claimed values.

https://www.green.car/guides/electric-car-range-and-how-its-calculated-wltp-and-real-world-range/#:~:text=A%20good%20(and%20cautious)%20rule,in%20the%20very%20cold%20conditions.

Now this week the weather has been considerably cooler. I work morning shift and leave the house at 5am. Temps this week have been around 4 degrees in the morning. 

I have had temp control set to 21 degrees and heated seats in use and my range has dropped to 2.8-3.0 miles per KW. Using 2.9 as the average and again multiplying by 71.5 brings me to 207.35 range. That would reduce my range by another 17%, which I understand is relatively normal. I.e. real world range is 80% of claimed WLTP and then take off another 10-20% in cold weather.

Quick note, looking online, the 71.5kw battery is claimed as useable rather than total battery size. Toyota also seemed to have updated some technical data

The bottom one is the interesting one. 23.3kw/100miles equates to 2.67m per KW which is only a touch below my “cold” weather average of 1 week.

EV database has the following range estimations based real world data of EVs vs claimed WLTP

Toyota bZ4X FWD price and specifications - EV Database (ev-database.uk)

Those numbers seem to confirm my very basic maths. Approx. 250-260 in summer and approx. 200 in winter.

I think that Toyota is playing it very safe and has applied very conservative “settings” to the car while also is aiming to protect its battery. The warranty is 90% and 10 years which I think is one of the longest / best warranties available in the market today. I would like to think with more real world user data that Toyota, similar to MEB cars and for example Polestar 2 and relaxes these settings int ime.

MEB cars, same as the BZ4X, launched with artificially throttled charging and relaxed that after about 8-12 months of cars in the field. Polestar range improved after software updates (see Which linked article)

It comes back to what does mean for you. Here and now the worst case range of approx. 200 miles is still more than sufficient for me. Commuting is obviously no issue. Based on our location in the East of England we can drive to the in-laws, Stansted & Heathrow airports, our usual spots on the coast and more all without needing to re-charge.

For me that’s no issue – “your mileage may wary”

[Malop]

Has anyone tried getting the SoC from an OBD?

[philip42h]

3 hours ago, ernieb said:

Sadly, I don't seem to be able to translate the review into English.

I read the translation. Something may have got lost in translation, but there are so many obvious errors and inconsistencies that I would place any reliance on that article ...

[ernieb]

Thanks Philip, one thing for sure is you need to have used the car for awhile and put the Battery through a number of charge/discharge cycles before the ‘car’ lets you get the best out of the Battery. This was what happened with the PHEV it was a few months before I got the best out of the car.

I’m also always concerned about some of these testing reviews as driving style, load,  acceleration/braking, weather and road conditions, topography etc., can and do impact significantly to the end results.

As the car gets into ‘real owners hands, a few miles get clocked up and a years weather we’ll get a much better read out. I’m looking forward to see just how well the car really performs. Based on my experience of the PHEV and others with various Toyota models I’d be surprised if the WLTP figures are very much different to real life when driving style/usage is taken into account.

[lightboxcar]

We have been promised our BZ4X this month, it's with the dealer now waiting for bolts ad extras.

This is an ideal time of the year to test range of the car, it's approaching winter, so we will see perhaps the 'worst case' scenario with cold conditions.

One question please if anyone can help, is there a way to tst the range right to zero miles left ?

With an ICE we would take jerry can.  What options are availble when the Battery is completely empty ?

[dab1054]

2 hours ago, swoop5511 said:

…

Back to my value, last week in mild temperatures (AC/heating off, fan on), I was averaging between 3.4-3.6 miles per KW driving all week. My commute and general driving so far

If as they claim the useable battery is only 62kw:

at 95% SOC I have a range of 254miles – which would mean a 267miles at 100% - which in return would mean 4.31 miles per KW. And that would be a ridiculous number for a boxy SUV like the BZ4X 

For example, what I would consider direct competitors in size and weight: Skoda Enyaq is 3.2m per KW & VW ID4 is 3.4m per KW. I wouldn’t compare the BZ4X for a model 3 or Zoe or ID3 or other high efficiency cars.

Unfortunately, software is where the car is currently let down. For example, I cant get a numerical value (%) for SOC from the car – only get it from the app and there the connectivity is very hit and miss for me. There is a lot of guessing and napkin maths going on when the car should be clearly displaying all the relevant ….

Thanks for this very informative post. These real world numbers are far more meaningful than the WLTP or from other trade reviews. I pick up my BZ4X Motion tomorrow so your ml/kE and range give me a good idea of what to expect. 

[dab1054]

ml/kWh

[lightboxcar]

One other point about range, IMHO for anyone looking to do 200 miles plus on a regualr basis, electic cars and charging infrastructure are not yet goog enough.

For us , it will be mostly about town, school runs, shopping and 20 mile round trips to work.  Plus the occasional long drive, maybe 3 or 4 times a year.  The BZ4X will handle that no problem.

[philip42h]

48 minutes ago, lightboxcar said:

One question please if anyone can help, is there a way to test the range right to zero miles left ?

With an ICE we would take jerry can.  What options are available when the battery is completely empty ?

As far as I am aware, the only way to test the range to "Battery empty" is to run the car until it stops. And then you need a tow truck or portable Battery to put some charge back in.

But it's a Toyota ... and If Toyota have designed the bZ4X in the same way that it designs it's other cars it will (and does) provide a readout of remaining range. This remaining range will be based on the amount or fuel in the tank / charge in the Battery and the characteristics of the recent driving style - but with the best will in the world it is an estimate (and certainly not a guarantee). The driver is supposed to refuel / recharge before it gets to zero. But Toyota also assumes that drivers can be careless or stupid and is rather conservative in range estimation - so typically the car will go another 20-50 miles after it reaches zero range left before actually stopping.

This model works pretty well for me - I nearly never drive to zero miles left, and usually fill-up at the start of a journey if I don't have sufficient fuel in the tank to get to journey's end. I'd want to the same when I switch to an EV.

Which brings me to your other point - I'm retired, don't have a regular commute, most of my journeys are short so I could probably get away with recharging a bZ4X once or twice a fortnight! But some of our journeys are much longer than the notional 250-350 mile range of an EV. I certainly don't have confidence that the charging infrastructure in the UK, let alone across Europe, is anywhere near "good enough" yet ... 😉

[lightboxcar]

19 minutes ago, philip42h said:

portable battery

Thank you, that is interesting.  Amazon show these but they are just for phones.  Not sure where to get a portable car Battery, certainly would be great to have

[philip42h]

18 minutes ago, lightboxcar said:

Thank you, that is interesting.  Amazon show these but they are just for phones.  Not sure where to get a portable car battery, certainly would be great to have

🙂 ... sorry, I believe that AA and RAC breakdown vehicles are starting to carry such things ...

e.g. https://www.rac.co.uk/breakdown-cover/electric-car-breakdown-cover

or https://www.theaa.com/breakdown-cover/electric-cars

I rather doubt that the average motorist could carry a 'spare'! 😉

[lightboxcar]

5 minutes ago, philip42h said:

AA and RAC breakdown vehicles are starting to carry such things .

Thanks !

Think it would be very informative to actually run the car to zero in real world driving conditions.

Tests just going round and round a track are absolutely not realistic.

The RAC web page says recovery options include '10 mile Battery boost' so as long as the test drive kept within 10 miles of a charger, in theory this test could be done.

On another note, currenty 'road trips to Vienna...' seem to be the preserve of fortunate RAV4 owners.

However having checked the distance from London to Vienna ( approx. 950 miles by road ), it may be doable in the BZ4x , if en-route hotels that have overnight charging can be located .....

[lightboxcar]

20 minutes ago, philip42h said:

doubt that the average motorist could carry a 'spare'!

Am sure you are correct.

But there is one out there, almost...

It's big, and much more expensive than RAC membership

https://www.zap-map.com/zipcharge-go-10000-pre-orders/

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/technology-news/uk-firm-launches-portable-ev-charger-urban-drivers

 

[Guest]

@lightboxcar it’s true, and I think when you are buying EV you need to make sure you’ve done planning and numbers correct so EV will be correct for you. In our case even with lower range, we are going to be fine . Day to day travelling,, clubs, 11kw charger on the farm with pv system and pv system at home will give us plenty free mileage. 
I think everyone should think about own infrastructure and needs. And yes, winter will be a great test for our new BZ. 
 

55 minutes ago, philip42h said:

so typically the car will go another 20-50 miles

So its like a reserve range, then in theory you range will be 230 ish plus 40…kind of 

[philip42h]

7 minutes ago, xbox-vibes said:

1 hour ago, philip42h said:

so typically the car will go another 20-50 miles

So its like a reserve range, then in theory you range will be 230 ish plus 40…kind of 

Yes, kind of, but that's just me guessing that Toyota will behave as it has in the past. I wouldn't deliberately risk the test to find out !!!! 😄

[nielshm]

I can read the article i norwegian.

Tested twice. First time in the rain, next time in dry conditions. Temprature was 8°C.

Best range in test is 319 km. starting from full charge 100% to 0 km. calculated range. Test completed in one continious drive, so only one "coldstart".

No matter what, that is NOT a acceptable result. The Battery could only be charged 62 kW, much lower than the 72 kW total capacity.

Please note, that speed limits in Norway are very strict. Motorway 68 mph (110 kmh). Other roads 50 mph, city 20-30 mph. 

[lightboxcar]

5 hours ago, swoop5511 said:

EV database has the following range estimations based real world data of EVs

Looking at the City vs Highway figures, there is a massive difference.

Does that mean that EV ranges are going to be quite poor on long motorway drives , for example London to Glasgow ?

Edited November 9, 2022 by lightboxcar
correction

[philip42h]

40 minutes ago, lightboxcar said:

Looking at the City vs Highway figures, there is a massive difference.

Does that mean that EV ranges are not going to be quite poor on long motorway drives , for example London to Glasgow ?

Yes and no ... EVs are much more efficient that ICE vehicles - the ICE wastes fuel stopping, starting and idling while an EV does not. Both use energy accelerating; an EV may recover a proportion of that decelerating. But at a constant speed the energy cost is proportional to the square of the velocity - for both EV and ICE. So, ignoring gearing effects, if the car uses x amount of energy per minute at 30 mph, it will use 4x that at 60 mph and 9x that at 90 mph ...

So, yes, your EV range around the city at 30 mph will be much better that your EV range down a motorway at 90 mph. And that is why they quote city, highway and combined figures (in cold and mild weather) to give you half a chance of estimating what you are really likely to get ...