Range test shows really bad results

[Cyker]

IMHO ,the fact that they restricted how much Battery you can access is A GOOD thing.

All manufacturers do it, even Tesla, to protect and extend the life of the Battery, but it's tricky to balance the safety buffer while keeping a reasonable usable range.

But you know who didn't put in a decent buffer? Chevy and Hyundai/Kia. And guess who are currently in the middle of the most expensive Battery recall the EV world has had so far. Yup, Chevy and Hyundai/Kia.

Youtubers were getting their Konas and e-Niros to a real-world 300 miles of range (in ideal conditions) on their 64kWh batteries because they were so efficient, so 70kWh isn't terrible, esp. if the bz can get to those efficiencies too.

(My problem is I want an absolute minimum 300 miles in worst-case conditions, and I worked that out to be about 120kWh usable... in something the size of a Yaris... I may have a while to wait...  )

 

[Malop]

1 hour ago, Cyker said:

IMHO ,the fact that they restricted how much battery you can access is A GOOD thing.

Agree. It’s a lot easier to roll out a software update to increase range after getting real world data from many drivers than it is to roll out an update to reduce it. 
Most EVs over the past few years have had range increasing updates that have been applauded by drivers and critics alike

[Rajavina]

15 hours ago, bZ4X said:

If I am not mistaken Norway Toyota claimed that car goes 30 miles extra when it shows 0% battery range as a buffer. Thus, must be added the shown range. 

 

Preferably, I would keep charging between %20-%80 if possible for battety health. 

Can people post their experiences with Rapid DC charging. Bz4x is supposed to take 150kWh. Where as when I tried instavolt 120 mine didn't go past 53kWh.

 

[Rajavina]

1 minute ago, Rajavina said:

Can people post their experiences with Rapid DC charging. Bz4x is supposed to take 150kWh. Where as when I tried instavolt 120 mine didn't go past 53kWh.

 

Where as a Porsche was charging at 98 to 100 kWh 

[bZ4X]

40 minutes ago, Rajavina said:

Can people post their experiences with Rapid DC charging. Bz4x is supposed to take 150kWh. Where as when I tried instavolt 120 mine didn't go past 53kWh.

 

It doesnt charge 150 kwh constantly. It was like opposite parabolic line. If I can find graph, I will share here. It starts around 150 then the dramaticly drops as Battery gets full. After %80 capacity, it charges to 11 kwh max. 

[bZ4X]

According to this graph, when you got 50 kwh your cars Battery was %60-65 full. @Rajavina

[Rajavina]

13 minutes ago, bZ4X said:

According to this graph, when you got 50 kwh your cars battery was %60-65 full. @Rajavina

Thanks. There is no point paying extra money to Instavolt if we start charging around 30 to 40%. Just 50kW is supermarkets should be more than enough and are marginally cheaper.

[egg]

According to this website the efficiency for my car (fwd Vision 20 inch wheels) is 4.0 miles per kwh not 3.9 as is stated on Toyota website.

If you divide the range by the miles per KWh it seems the available Battery capacity should be circa 69.5 KWh

It would be great if we could hear from someone who had connected to the OBD port to check this

[egg]

If we say that is the useable capacity including the buffer below a zero indicated range. Also that Toyotas figure of 8.2% for this buffer, then it looks like this

Total useable 69.5 KWh 

Buffer 5.7KWh

Useable above zero indicated range 63.8

This would then point to a large drop in Battery capacity in a short space of time.

I do realise that there is supposedly an initial drop during say the 1st year of use, which then slows right down until the Battery nears the end of its life. Also that the test cars will probably have been fast charged and thrashed more than average, but still seems a large drop, very early on, if that is what's happening here

[W id]

New Norwegian test this evening. Drove until the car stopped. 40 km after it said 0 range. He is charging now to see how many kw he can fit in the Battery from actual zero   

[Rajavina]

1 hour ago, W id said:

New Norwegian test this evening. Drove until the car stopped. 40 km after it said 0 range. He is charging now to see how many kw he can fit in the battery from actual zero   

How many miles / km did he manage. 

This is after driving my FWD 18" wheel Motion this evening. 90 miles on M and A roads and 8 miles on B roads. Cruise control for those 90 miles at 70mph. Outside temp was 11 Deg, 2 passengers, eco climate 21 degrees, eco driving. Looking at these numbers we will get 180 to 190 miles after a full charge in winter.

[dab1054]

Quote

10 minutes ago, Rajavina said:

Looking at these numbers we will get 180 to 190 miles after a full charge in winter.

 

This is close to what is expected for bz4X FWD on EV database:

https://ev-database.uk/car/1564/Toyota-bZ4X-FWD

Real Range Estimation between 165 - 340 mi

City - Cold Weather *	230 mi
Highway - Cold Weather *	165 mi
Combined - Cold Weather *	195 mi

City - Mild Weather *	340 mi
Highway - Mild Weather *	210 mi
Combined - Mild Weather *	265 mi

[W id]

1 hour ago, W id said:

New Norwegian test this evening. Drove until the car stopped. 40 km after it said 0 range. He is charging now to see how many kw he can fit in the battery from actual zero   

Usable Battery 67.15 according to his test tonight. Drove the car until it stoped had it towed to the charger and charged to 100 percent. 
 

[lightboxcar]

15 minutes ago, W id said:

Usable battery 67.15 according to his test tonight. Drove the car until it stoped had it towed to the charger and charged to 100 percent. 
 

Thanks for this , very useful !

Says 2 hours 17 min to charge from zero to 100%, that seems very fast !!!

Also seems to suggest about 5Kw of the Battery capacity is being held back, and maybe about 5Kw "hidden" to be used as the 40 kilometer buffer after hitting zero on the in car range figure ?

[bZ4X]

29 minutes ago, lightboxcar said:

Thanks for this , very useful !

Says 2 hours 17 min to charge from zero to 100%, that seems very fast !!!

Also seems to suggest about 5Kw of the battery capacity is being held back, and maybe about 5Kw "hidden" to be used as the 40 kilometer buffer after hitting zero on the in car range figure ?

This screen is from charging station. Thus no hidden kw 😊. It shows what it gave to car. It might mean that car stopped and left 5 kwh for emergency use to show cars location, to use sos button etc...

[lightboxcar]

24 minutes ago, bZ4X said:

This screen is from charging station. Thus no hidden kw 😊. It shows what it gave to car. It might mean that car stopped and left 5 kwh for emergency use to show cars location, to use sos button etc...

But he drove car until it completely stopped, i.e. even when it said zero range he kept driving the car. 

And he said this  "Usable Battery 67.15 according to his test tonight..."

But here   it says usable capacity 71.4Kw.

So:

1:  Toyota appear to be holding back about 5Kw that we cannot use, maybe this is good as mentioned by others, to prtect Battery lifetime

2.  He had to drive way past when zero percent charge shown in vehicle , and got 40Km ( 25 miles ) so thats about 5Kw hidden/reserve

This seems to tally with what other members are saying, that right now the displayed range will equal like that for 61Kw Battery, NOT 71Kw battery

What do you think ?

 

[swoop5511]

7 hours ago, lightboxcar said:

But he drove car until it completely stopped, i.e. even when it said zero range he kept driving the car. 

And he said this  "Usable battery 67.15 according to his test tonight..."

But here   it says usable capacity 71.4Kw.

So:

1:  Toyota appear to be holding back about 5Kw that we cannot use, maybe this is good as mentioned by others, to prtect battery lifetime

2.  He had to drive way past when zero percent charge shown in vehicle , and got 40Km ( 25 miles ) so thats about 5Kw hidden/reserve

This seems to tally with what other members are saying, that right now the displayed range will equal like that for 61Kw battery, NOT 71Kw battery

What do you think ?

 

I am more and more "convinced" this is down to Toyota's management of the Battery and associated software. 

My feeling is that the gross 75 / nett 71.5 values are correct

71.5 useable Battery minus 67.1 = 4.4. The test showed the buffer is "about" 5. So with some loss that could easily match.

The thing about the climate control etc, it does not matter what you turn on and to what setting you set it. I.e. i can just turn the fan on 1 level and leave everything else off and the displayed range reduces as people state. It reduce by the same amount of I turn everything on max. 

Equally "funny" if you use the function to pre defrost or heat your car in the morning for example - you SOC does not change - at least did not for me. I did a quick test, car is obviously not plugged in, set everything to 22 degrees and defrost front / rear for 10 min this morning 5am and SOC remained the same. 

It comes back to software and software management. It obvious for anyone that had their car that this is where Toyota lags behind. From the app to the software in the car. I think its both a missing features and equally or more important Toyota being very cautious. and restricting by choice. 

I keep coming back to an article I read in the summer, specifically addressing the US market where Toyota expected that their traditional customers who are often "old" (60+) would adopt the BZ4X as their first electric car. And I assume that's where the buffer is coming from etc. Often (most?) EV buyers are still to large degree not necessarily early adopters anymore but educated on EVs or learning EV features all the time. And interested to dos so. Just look at the various discussions here. 

My parents or in-laws are all in their 60s and they wouldn't know nor would want to know. Just want to get in and drive and fill up / plug in when needed. Looking at it from that angle it makes at least sense. 

I do think (hope?) that Toyota will improve the software side of things and potentially relax the buffer or add the buffer into the range. 

[swoop5511]

9 hours ago, W id said:

Usable battery 67.15 according to his test tonight. Drove the car until it stoped had it towed to the charger and charged to 100 percent. 
 

Thanks for sharing. Do you have a link to this? Or an updated article? Couldnt see anything on the original page

[W id]

34 minutes ago, swoop5511 said:

Thanks for sharing. Do you have a link to this? Or an updated article? Couldnt see anything on the original page

It’s instagram. Just search for #bz4x and his posts will come as most recent. 

[philip42h]

2 hours ago, swoop5511 said:

I keep coming back to an article I read in the summer, specifically addressing the US market where Toyota expected that their traditional customers who are often "old" (60+) would adopt the BZ4X as their first electric car. And I assume that's where the buffer is coming from etc. Often (most?) EV buyers are still to large degree not necessarily early adopters anymore but educated on EVs or learning EV features all the time. And interested to dos so. Just look at the various discussions here. 

My parents or in-laws are all in their 60s and they wouldn't know nor would want to know. Just want to get in and drive and fill up / plug in when needed. Looking at it from that angle it makes at least sense. 

That's a tad ageist, young whippersnapper ... but you'll know better once you grow-up ... 😉

 

But you are not wrong - Toyota is a volume car maker, targeting the mainstream market; it is not specifically targeting those who desperately need an iPhone 15. And part of the problem is that the mainstream market isn't really ready for the EV - or more importantly the EV is quite ready for the mainstream market.

[swoop5511]

On 11/11/2022 at 6:37 PM, Malop said:

@bZ4X love the response to your comment on the Toyota Magazine site. How to answer the question without answering it. I literally shouted at my phone “so just tell him the UK battery size”

@bZ4X @Malop I left 2 follow up comments, 1 on Fri and 1 this morning on that post and both did not past review ...

[bZ4X]

1 hour ago, swoop5511 said:

@bZ4X @Malop I left 2 follow up comments, 1 on Fri and 1 this morning on that post and both did not past review ...

I wonder what you wrote 😂 I hope you were able to keep your cool... 

[swoop5511]

totally. and funny enough they just responded to 2 people asking the same question. Turns out the 71.5 is gross size - NOT nett

Quote

At Toyota, we highly value any customer feedback and are putting our utmost attention to the concern on the bZ4X range and consumption performance raised in the article published in ElBil24.

Actual real-life range is a result of multiple factors. Next to battery capacity and battery recharging generated from deceleration while driving, also usage of the HVAC system, as well as external factors such as outside temperature will influence the energy consumption and available range. In case of bZ4X, the gross battery capacity is 71.4 kWh and we refrain from giving the net value which depends on the external conditions, as explained before.

We take the concern raised in the article very serious and we are closely monitoring real-life range and consumption results of bZ4X in order to continuously assess improvement activities.

We would like to also point out that, as a Toyota policy, and no matter if a vehicle runs on petrol or electricity, the range is giving accurate and reliable information to customers that takes into account external conditions, like outside temperature, and vehicle’s usage conditions, such as HVAC usage and interior temperature setting, which was mentioned in the article.

At the same time, Toyota vehicles always come with a range ‘buffer’ to ensure customer’s peace of mind should meter display 0 km range without having an immediate opportunity to re-charge. Once the meter displays 0 km range in the case of bZ4X, the battery may still have up to 8.2% State Of Charge (SOC) left. This value is an indicative percentage that varies upwards/downwards depending on many factors, and therefore it is also difficult to translate it into an exact number of range km that left until battery depletion. Before full battery depletion and the car comes to a full stop, the power output and maximum speed of the vehicle will be reduced as of when the available SOC % becomes critically low.

 

[lightboxcar]

2 hours ago, swoop5511 said:

the gross battery capacity is 71.4 kWh and we refrain from giving the net value

So Toyota are saying they are not prepared to divulge the real usable amount of the Battery ???

[swoop5511]

4 minutes ago, lightboxcar said:

So Toyota are saying they are not prepared to divulge the real usable amount of the battery ???

No they're not giving exact values. At least at the moment, we'll see if more publicity on this changes that down the road. You can however work out relatively accurate

my napkin maths aligns with @egg numbers. Essentially almost 70kw useable, but you can only get 63-64kw worth of range on your gauge, the rest is hidden buffer.

Quote

If we say that is the useable capacity including the buffer below a zero indicated range. Also that Toyotas figure of 8.2% for this buffer, then it looks like this

Total useable 69.5 KWh 

Buffer 5.7KWh

Useable above zero indicated range 63.8