Range test shows really bad results

[lightboxcar]

2 minutes ago, swoop5511 said:

the rest is hidden buffer.

Ok thanks , understand that.

But for goodness sake, can't we just have the display say what's left in the tank !

Those who then choose to drive to zero, would do so knowing full well they would be stranded.  Exactly the same as an ICE !

And the rest of us would know how much real range we have

Is that reasonable , or are we missing something ?

[rfrancis073]

I wonder where the writers of articles like these come up with the numbers (71.4 kWh)?

 

https://paultan.org/2022/11/14/2023-toyota-bz4x-launched-in-thailand/

[philip42h]

29 minutes ago, rfrancis073 said:

I wonder where the writers of articles like these come up with the numbers (71.4 kWh)?

From the Toyota media site - e.g. https://newsroom.toyota.eu/the-all-new-toyota-bz4x/

The downloadable spec sheet gives the Battery voltage as 355v and the Battery capacity as 71.4 kWh, The bZ4X brochure gives the Battery capacity as 201Ah. 201Ah at 355v => 71.4 kWh ...

[bZ4X]

https://instagram.com/nybiltester?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

[philip42h]

37 minutes ago, lightboxcar said:

... for goodness sake, can't we just have the display say what's left in the tank !

Those who then choose to drive to zero, would do so knowing full well they would be stranded.  Exactly the same as an ICE !

And the rest of us would know how much real range we have

Is that reasonable , or are we missing something ?

With an ICE we would typically have a fuel gauge which gives a very crude estimated of how much fuel is left in the tank. Toyota have historically 'hidden' a reasonable reserve so that we have fuel left when the fuel gauge first indicates empty. I don't know how easy it would be for a car manufacturer to accurately state the amount of charge remaining in the Battery.

Range remaining is merely an estimate of how much further the car might be able to go assuming that the driver continues to drive as he/she has in the recent past. You only know "how much real range you have" when it is zero - i.e. you have run out of fuel / charge and come to a stop. Instead, Toyota gives an estimate of how much further you can go before you ought to refuel / recharge ...

Knowing when I should refuel is useful to me; not knowing exactly how much fuel I have left in the tank has never bothered me with an ICE or hybrid. And I can't see it being that important to me in an EV.

[rfrancis073]

21 hours ago, philip42h said:

From the Toyota media site - e.g. https://newsroom.toyota.eu/the-all-new-toyota-bz4x/

The downloadable spec sheet gives the battery voltage as 355v and the battery capacity as 71.4 kWh, The bZ4X brochure gives the battery capacity as 201Ah. 201Ah at 355v => 71.4 kWh ...

Thanks Philip.  I had read that before but forgot.  Also forgot that the US AWD models get a 72.8 kWh CATL Battery.

[W id]

I have a question I am struggling with. I will get my 4wd top spec in a couple of weeks and I don’t know how to feel about the tests where bz4x is underperforming so much on range. Should I just accept that Toyota basically lied 470km was what I was told when ordering. Or should we demand that Toyota addresses this or is it just to accept that with ev cars numbers can’t be trusted? But even so the testers seems to be in agreement that Toyota underperforms more then other ev cars. This is just my thoughts trying to navigate what I should do. What is your opinion on this matter. Should we accept or should we be really disappointed?

[philip42h]

37 minutes ago, W id said:

I have a question I am struggling with. ...

Should I just accept that Toyota basically lied 470km was what I was told when ordering. Or should we demand that Toyota addresses this or is it just to accept that with ev cars numbers can’t be trusted? But even so the testers seems to be in agreement that Toyota underperforms more then other ev cars. This is just my thoughts trying to navigate what I should do. What is your opinion on this matter. Should we accept or should we be really disappointed?

Who told you 470 km? And under what circumstances did they say that you'd get a range of 470 km?

Edit: and to answer my own question, the European media site states: The bZ4X has an official driving range (WLTP standard) of up to 516 km for the FWD version and up to 470 km for the AWD model. Fast-charging to 80% capacity can be accomplished in around 30 minutes, in normal temperature conditions

The UK website cheerfully states that the bZ4X has a "Pure Electric Range of 317.52 miles" (so around 511 km) and the provides the caveat that:

Quote

Figures are provided for comparability purposes; only compare fuel consumption and CO2 figures with other cars tested to the same technical procedures. These figures may not reflect real life driving results. All vehicles are certified according to the World Harmonised Light Vehicle Test Procedure (WLTP). Please visit the Vehicle Certification Agency website for the latest information. Choice of options and accessories fitted (pre-registration) may affect the official CO2 figures, car tax and 'on the road' price. Find out more about WLTP or contact your local Toyota Centre.

So, the optimistic headline figure that Toyota give should be comparable with optimistic headline figures given by other manufacturers. They all use WLTP figures and while current WLTP figures give a good idea of what one will actually achieve with an ICE or hybrid they do seem suspect for EVs - or at least need very careful interpretation.

The UK bZ4X brochure states:

but again they are only quoting a "Combined WLTP" range (in miles or kilometers). They don't quote the individual 'urban' figures which will be rather better or the individual 'highway' figures that will be considerably worse.

It's not that the WLTP figures can't be trusted but they do need a considerable amount of interpretation. And Toyota aren't doing a great job of either providing all the relevant information (even in the small print as far as I can see) or of assisting potential purchasers to understand it ...

Edited November 16, 2022 by philip42h
Answering my own question ...

[swoop5511]

1 hour ago, W id said:

I have a question I am struggling with. I will get my 4wd top spec in a couple of weeks and I don’t know how to feel about the tests where bz4x is underperforming so much on range. Should I just accept that Toyota basically lied 470km was what I was told when ordering. Or should we demand that Toyota addresses this or is it just to accept that with ev cars numbers can’t be trusted? But even so the testers seems to be in agreement that Toyota underperforms more then other ev cars. This is just my thoughts trying to navigate what I should do. What is your opinion on this matter. Should we accept or should we be really disappointed?

EV Database tends to be pretty spot on with their real world range figures. Should add that all the below competitors have in some cases a quite a bit larger Battery. Even before the whole 71.5 useable vs no useable.  77 for the VW, 82 for the Nissan, and somewhere in between for the Kia. Once you factor that in, the AWD versions of these cars of similar size and weight and aerodynamic resistance value are pretty comparable. 

 

For comparison Nissan Ariya AWD

 

Kia EV6 AWD

 

 

VW ID4 AWD

 

 

[philip42h]

33 minutes ago, swoop5511 said:

EV Database tends to be pretty spot on with their real world range figures

I like the EVDB as an objective source of information - but strongly suspect that their tables come from independent analysis of manufacturer supplied data rather than independent testing. So if the manufacturer 'lies', so will the information in the database. But that said, I agree with Listener that their opinion and comparisons are very well worth the read.

[swoop5511]

2 minutes ago, philip42h said:

I like the EVDB as an objective source of information - but strongly suspect that their tables come from independent analysis of manufacturer supplied data rather than independent testing. So if the manufacturer 'lies', so will the information in the database. But that said, I agree with Listener that their opinion and comparisons are very well worth the read.

As i understand they take manufacturers WLTP ranges and apply a formula based on actual tests. I.e. not a BZ4x test, but tests of EVs by independent testers and averaging the variance of WLTP vs actual based on car size etc. Wont be 100% accurate, but most certainly more accurate than WLTP and for the BZ4x I think they're very close to what I feel i can do based on my miles per kw results. 

[W id]

1 hour ago, philip42h said:

Who told you 470 km? And under what circumstances did they say that you'd get a range of 470 km?

Edit: and to answer my own question, the European media site states: The bZ4X has an official driving range (WLTP standard) of up to 516 km for the FWD version and up to 470 km for the AWD model. Fast-charging to 80% capacity can be accomplished in around 30 minutes, in normal temperature conditions

The UK website cheerfully states that the bZ4X has a "Pure Electric Range of 317.52 miles" (so around 511 km) and the provides the caveat that:

So, the optimistic headline figure that Toyota give should be comparable with optimistic headline figures given by other manufacturers. They all use WLTP figures and while current WLTP figures give a good idea of what one will actually achieve with an ICE or hybrid they do seem suspect for EVs - or at least need very careful interpretation.

The UK bZ4X brochure states:

but again they are only quoting a "Combined WLTP" range (in miles or kilometers). They don't quote the individual 'urban' figures which will be rather better or the individual 'highway' figures that will be considerably worse.

It's not that the WLTP figures can't be trusted but they do need a considerable amount of interpretation. And Toyota aren't doing a great job of either providing all the relevant information (even in the small print as far as I can see) or of assisting potential purchasers to understand it ...

Thanks for your well thought answer. 
but still my concern is. Why is almost all testers surprised that the bz4x is underperforming,it is something that other cars simply just don’t do the to the same level otherwise they wouldn’t be so critical. And I don’t think that it is because the hate Toyota everyone seems to like the car and how it drives but that it is puzzling how it doesn’t live up the their expectations about range. 

[philip42h]

7 minutes ago, W id said:

Thanks for your well thought answer. 
but still my concern is. Why is almost all testers surprised that the bz4x is underperforming,it is something that other cars simply just don’t do the to the same level otherwise they wouldn’t be so critical. And I don’t think that it is because the hate Toyota everyone seems to like the car and how it drives but that it is puzzling how it doesn’t live up the their expectations about range. 

... and I can't answer that ... 😉

I've driven a Toyota RAV4 for the past 13 years so I'd have to admit to being a Toyota / RAV4 fan. I might be "brand loyal" but I'm certainly not "brand blind" and would switch to a competitor in a heartbeat if I thought that they had a better offering. In that time, I've read numerous reviews and road tests that were always critical to the point of being 'unfair' to the car I was either considering or driving. The tester simply had a different expectation to me as to what was important. Toyota seems to attract that sort of criticism.

As for the "Norwegian test", I've read the translation and don't rate it as a reliable source of information.

Over the coming year we should get more balanced feedback from forum members on their experiences - and future prospective buyers can benefit from that.

None of which will help you in making a positive decision over the coming week ... 😉

[lightboxcar]

From everything we have learned from reading the extensive posts on this forum, and from sudying much of the available data, our take is this:

We will all have different driving patterns, and use scenarios, and the car will be more suited to some and less to others.

Think this is true for all EVs.  They seem perfect for urban driving , but more challenging for longer high speed motorway  use , where more frequent charging is needed.

Demand for EV's still seems very strong, despite the much higher cost to buy over ICE, and we are not deluged with horror stories from EV owners, on the contrary most seem very pleased.

There are loads pros and cons with EV vs ICE, so it really is a personal choice.

We just did tons of research and drew on the vast experience of members of these forums , who freely offer expert advice.  This was great help in our decision making process.  In fact we ordered the car before we even saw or drove it !!

Expecting delivery next week

[rfrancis073]

From the Solterra forums (posted by yalla):

 

 

Quote

 

Update from motor.no:

From Subaru and Toyota we have received the following updates a few minutes before midnight on Wednesday:

• Subaru Solterra is ready for testing again from tomorrow, Wednesday, reports the general manager of Subaru Norway, Torbjørn Lie.
• The Toyota bZ4X is ready for testing again from Friday, says Toyota's communications manager, Espen Olsen.

 

 

$1,000,000 question is did they update something while they were pulled?

[W id]

5 minutes ago, rfrancis073 said:

From the Solterra forums (posted by yalla):

 

 

 

$1,000,000 question is did they update something while they were pulled?

Nah. I don’t think they did. We would have heard that from motor.no. I think they just want to make sure that there’s nothing wrong with the car I’m guessing that they are doing research on that particular car, other cars will be provided to the press. 

[G S]

Today I went for a drive after charging at home last night.    Motion AWD

141 miles in total - 120 on Motorway or Dual Carriage way with radar cruise set at 70mph

External Temp - 7 to 10 degrees

Internal Temp set at 17 degrees

Ok weather this morning, but torrential rain and generally grim this evening

Both Eco Modes engaged this morning but this evening I had to override the climate control Eco button to get window blowers on for about 30 miles

This suggests that I would have been just short of 200 miles and pretty close to the 196 it told me I had this morning before I left (on the car - the app said 246). I can easily see 250 ish or more with town and country driving.

My next trip will be with radar cruise set at 65 as I need to do 220 miles so hopefully it may do it with the slower speed.

[W id]

1 hour ago, G S said:

Today I went for a drive after charging at home last night.    Motion AWD

141 miles in total - 120 on Motorway or Dual Carriage way with radar cruise set at 70mph

External Temp - 7 to 10 degrees

Internal Temp set at 17 degrees

Ok weather this morning, but torrential rain and generally grim this evening

Both Eco Modes engaged this morning but this evening I had to override the climate control Eco button to get window blowers on for about 30 miles

This suggests that I would have been just short of 200 miles and pretty close to the 196 it told me I had this morning before I left (on the car - the app said 246). I can easily see 250 ish or more with town and country driving.

My next trip will be with radar cruise set at 65 as I need to do 220 miles so hopefully it may do it with the slower speed.

Nice! But 17 degrees inside the car sounds terribly cold 🥶

[G S]

30 minutes ago, W id said:

Nice! But 17 degrees inside the car sounds terribly cold 🥶

You think? I turned it down from 18 as I was too hot. 

FYI, for a job I work in the mountains of Scotland in winter as well as spend a lot of time in the sea year-round so 17 is pretty toasty for me

[lightboxcar]

2 hours ago, G S said:

for a job I work in the mountains of Scotland

Great to see real world ranges now coming in, thanks very much.

Will you be driving the BZ4Z to Scotland ?   Would be very interested to see how that was

[G S]

10 hours ago, lightboxcar said:

Great to see real world ranges now coming in, thanks very much.

Will you be driving the BZ4Z to Scotland ?   Would be very interested to see how that was

It is on the cards and actually the charging on route will work fine as I have already mapped it. My current concern is that I can't find suitable winter tyres and Toyota can't yet supply me with a spare wheel so I may take the other car this year as I don't trust that glue stuff and I don't want to get into bother up a minor road. Once I can source decent winter tyres and a spare wheel then yes, I intend to take it up there but that might for winter 23/24. I am off to the Lake District next week and then back through Wales so a proper road trip through some mountains. Hope to get some nice pics

[ernieb]

1 hour ago, G S said:

It is on the cards and actually the charging on route will work fine as I have already mapped it. My current concern is that I can't find suitable winter tyres and Toyota can't yet supply me with a spare wheel so I may take the other car this year as I don't trust that glue stuff and I don't want to get into bother up a minor road. Once I can source decent winter tyres and a spare wheel then yes, I intend to take it up there but that might for winter 23/24. I am off to the Lake District next week and then back through Wales so a proper road trip through some mountains. Hope to get some nice pics

Please report your EV range results I'm sure that will be of interest to all.

[egg]

Car tyre pressures were reading 36,37,37,38 so using my tyre inflator I asked for each to inflate to 38, however this wasn't accurate and overinflated them all to approx 40 psi which I left them at prior to my run to the Lake District and back yesterday. Car charged to 100%

The round trip via motorways would be slightly in excess of 250 miles which would not be possible without charging, and I wouldn't go this way in my ICE car anyway.

Went shorter route which involved slow built up roads, in and around Leeds centre, before getting onto A65 for majority of run there and back.

Got stuck behind slower moving traffic most of way on A65 but used full power to overtake when road conditions allowed, also 75mph on dual carriageway other side of M6 close to lakes. Slow overall average of 31.5 mph (94.6miles which took 3 hrs), got there with 55% Battery left showing on app (avg 3.2 miles KWh)

Return leg had slight variations to route but still A65 for majority, faster overall average with more dual carriageways near home 35.2 mph (96.9miles 2hrs 47 mins), got home with approx 4% Battery left according to app.

So that's approx 45% Battery on way there, 51% battery used on way back, total of approx 192 miles, so just short of 200 miles to zero range.

Car is FWD Vision (less efficient 20 inch wheels), rather than have heat/air con on permanently, I had it on and off as I needed (to stay warm but mainly to keep windscreen clear, probably 50/50 on and off)

Outside temperature was 8 degrees C, although slow average speed, did have bursts of full power acceleration and higher speed where possible. Also anyone who knows that road knows it is hardly flat with constant fluctuations up and down, as well as plenty of bends (car handles like a dream by the way and turns with no lean).

When I hit approx 25/30 miles range left, a warning message popped up asking me to charge, and even suggested a nearby charger (at an Asda) which I ignored and cleared the message (I had turned on the charger suggestion, think it was turned off by default on my car).

I did a short burst on motorway (just on one junction, off the next) at approx 10 miles range, shortly before getting home, and noticed less power on full acceleration, but still plenty to get me to 75 mph.

I wanted to see if it was possible to do a run to the Lakes and back in winter without charging and it did, am more than happy with that to be fair

[egg]

Forgot to mention car said I had averaged 3.2 miles per KWh on return leg also.

Most of way back on A65 I also had adaptive headlights engaged which utilizes high beam while constantly dipping parts of beam so as not to dazzle any other drivers.

Works really well, and never got flashed by anyone who thought I had high beam on, but this really was a help on the dark winding roads on way back

[egg]

Sorry for putting another post on here in test results section. After arriving home and deciding to put a little charge in car just so it's not sat at very low soc until off peak rate kicks in, guess what? Car wouldn't charge.

Nothing to do with car, or even charger, however a problem with Centrica's servers meant the charger was offline, and I couldn't start a charge.

Used troubleshooting in Hive app (this was free charger from Toyota with British Gas), which involved flipping Matt E device off and back on, which I wasn't surprised didn't work.

Then allowed me to make a call to someone which my issue was then logged on their system for attention. I told the lady the app was telling me the charger couldn't connect to their server, and the problem was most likely at their end, to which she agreed due to the fact about all the similar calls she was getting. 

She confirmed their I.T. response was 24 7 after I asked, and she said someone would be in touch.

Approx 3 hrs later, after constantly checking the app, a button appeared to allow me to start a charge, even though it said any modifications to my charging schedule were not possible at the moment, and the car would carry on charging until full.

This started the charge, although I seemed unable to preprogramme it to stop at 4.30 am as I wanted.

So to enable me to do this, I set my alarm for 4.30 am, unlocked the car using remote, twice, which then stopped the charge (confirmed in car app as Hive app was frozen on saying it was still charging), relocked the car and went back to bed.

Also something to be aware of for anyone who's not familiar with charging an Ev, when I originally plugged the car in last night, I could hear the constant clicking of the car unsuccessfully trying to lock the charger in place. I have a long 10m lead to enable me to reach my charger, and I just had to reposition the cable on the ground, so it was more of a straight run to charger, as this must have been pulling slightly on charger plug to one side, once I did that it locked in place no problem