Terminal Subframe Corrosion - '63 Plate

[CaptainBogs]

Dear all, just curious to see if anybody else has had this problem on the 2013 onwards era Auris. 

MOT time has come around and despite some pre-emptive work it has failed due to the front suspension struts being seriously corroded. On exploration they are impossible to replace due to corrosion to the subframe (which although not mentioned on the MOT, my mechanic thinks is in overall quite poor condition). Upon seeking advice from Toyota on how to address this, they've been told it is a 'reasonably' common problem and their procedure would be replace the entire subframe at a cost of almost £2000, not counting the cost of the front arms. 

Disappointing for a car that's not technically 10 yet 😞. It was bought as an Approved Used in 2020, no mention of any corrosion but my experiences with the two Toyota dealers (and their garages) in Cornwall have been fairly negative! So not entirely shocked if this was known but omitted.

I live in Cornwall, so unfortunately the perfect environment for rust but i have been a bit suprised. Otherwise the car has preformed flawlessly, only requiring standard wear and tear despite doing 25k or so a year in it - if it can get through this MOT it's probably not going to make it to the next. Overall the state of the undercarriage is quite poor, and my garage reckons the rear arms probably won't be in a passable state after another year of abuse. 

Just curious if anybody else has had this kind of a problem on a car that's not that old? Sadly, it seems like the classic 'Corroda' nickname is still applicable, at least for my poor auris! 

[flash22]

What's the subframe got to do with the front struts ? Pictures would help

[CaptainBogs]

Hi Flash, 

No pictures to hand unfortunately - i am told the issue is where the front arms connect to the subframe, the bolts have completely rusted through and there is no way to detach the current corroded arms. 

I am only 60% mechanically confident so apologies if my explanation does not make perfect sense!

The main reason for my post was to see if others have had corrosion on a car this 'young' as although there's a historical rust problem with Toyota, we're talking the 90's and i regularly see Toyotas much older than mine out and about presumably with valid MOTs! 

[Mojo1010]

Sorry to hear of your plight. Not able to help with your problem, although you can try and ask Toyota for a goodwill contribution towards repair cost? 

I once had a BMW 3 series coupe manual, bought it around 8-9 years old. The was a knocking noise when changing gears quickly, driving wise it was fine. One day it when in to change brake pads, the indy mechanic found the subframe corroded. One part of the frame near a rear wheel were hanging, this is the knocking sound I near when changing gear fast.

So i was on the internet owner forum and post a message about it. Some people were saying it's a manufacturing fault and BMW knew about it and are repairing free of charge! So I had it looked at the BMW dealership, booked my car in for the repair free of charge. So I was so relieved. 

[CaptainBogs]

8 minutes ago, Mojo1010 said:

Sorry to hear of your plight. Not able to help with your problem, although you can always ask Toyota for a goodwill contribution towards repair cost? 

I once had a BMW 3 series coupe manual, bought it around 8-9 years old. The was a knocking noise when changing gears quickly, driving wise it was fine. One day it when in to change brake pads, the indy mechanics found the subframe corroded. One part of the frame near a rear wheel were hanging, this is the knocking sound I near when changing gear fast.

So i was on the internet owner forum and post a message about it. Some people were saying it's a manufacturing fault and BMW knew about it and are repairing free of charge! So I had it looked at the BMW dealership, booked my car in for the repair free of charge. So I was so relieved. 

I may explore that although my experiences with the garages here haven't been great. I had an A/C issue earlier in the year that they explored during a service for me, they "thoroughly" tested the entire system and found no leaks so kindly re-gassed it, apparently tested it again - and it was in perfect condition. Until the system lost pressure again not 4 weeks later - i took it back as Relax apparently covers the A/C system. 

Their response was there is a leak in the compressor, and because this problem "probably" existed before the service then it was not going to be covered. There was some back and forth but they simply wouldn't budge.

On top of that, there's the issue of the undercarriage having some kind of anti rust sealant. From reading I've seen this can actually cause more corrosion - this was picked up on my last service in the health check as a hazard. Now, the previous owner who had it from new only ever had work done at Toyota and on the online service log i can LITERALLY SEE that it was them who applied it. But no, "we don't have anything to do with them" so i'd have to pay to have to removed. Both garages are under the same brand! Absolutely maddening! 

Perhaps i'll take a look at a beemer next then. Might not have the reliability of Toyota but at least it sounds like their corporate is alot easier to deal with! 

[Mojo1010]

I suggest u ask Toyota uk, that's what I meant for a contribution. I would think about telling Toyota uk about your a/c problem with that dealership. Good luck and hope you get some cost towards the repairs. 

[APS]

1 hour ago, CaptainBogs said:

Just curious if anybody else has had this kind of a problem on a car that's not that old? Sadly, it seems like the classic 'Corroda' nickname is still applicable, at least for my poor auris! 

Can't say I've come across this. However, we've had an E120 Corolla T-sport that had lived its life near the sea and you can tell it makes a huge difference. You get this deep, black corrosion from the salt in the air. The hinges for the bonnet had swollen so badly we could barely open it and once opened the bonnet would stay in whatever angle you left it, no prop needed.

The way Toyota protects cars against rust is mostly focused on the bodywork, with galvanized steel, paint, seam selaer, and stonechip in exposed areas. However, suspension and chassis components are generally only painted as they are thick enough that a bit of rust does not matter. However, give it some salt to accelerate that corrosion then I can see that those structural components may suffer enough to weaken them. 

Still, I agree with you, it does seem early for a modern car to suffer terminal rust issues. That said, I can't say what other car make would make better lasting cars. I see plenty of German cars from that era that have bubbling bodywork and even patched sills.

[TonyHSD]

Hi James, 

from reading your posts it seems you may have to have a legal battle with the dealer your had bought car from and eventually the one who you are dealing now with if it’s different. No used approved car should be sold with rust problems which obviously can not happen in two years time and have been likely there prior to you buying the car,. You had a car with existing problems, you had a warranty refused with no real reason, it doesn’t matter if the ac problems were there before or after the car was serviced in main dealer, since it was serviced and re gased there and after the ac has failed means the dealer should repair under warranty. You really need to approach the matter legally and seek help. Perhaps an email to Toyota uk customer service. Some Toyota dealers are worse than “ little men” down the road. 
For the subframe and the arm bolts, if the subframe it is not rusty and only the bolts are there is an option to cut and replace bolts only. 
This car was in bad shape when sold to you, not in original condition of it was anything applied underneath and you will need to fight for your rights. Imo either fix everything under warranty including ac and rust issues plus shocks or return the car for full refund as been sold non genuine car with serious problems. 
Good luck 

[600rob]

This is probably not much help right now but maybe for future reference......

Have you guys heard of something called ACF-50? and corrosion block (made by the same company) Its marketed for motorcycles but i started using it on cars many years back

Its great for slowing down/preventing rust and corrosion and can be used on everything apart from brakes. Works great on electrical components too. just spray or brush it on.

Good at freeing up seized components too

Ive always used it on the underside of all my vehicles and im sure its extended the life of my exhaust components. I only recently had to replace the original exhaust on my 2002 150k mile yaris.

 

[CaptainBogs]

1 hour ago, TonyHSD said:

Hi James, 

from reading your posts it seems you may have to have a legal battle with the dealer your had bought car from and eventually the one who you are dealing now with if it’s different. No used approved car should be sold with rust problems which obviously can not happen in two years time and have been likely there prior to you buying the car,. You had a car with existing problems, you had a warranty refused with no real reason, it doesn’t matter if the ac problems were there before or after the car was serviced in main dealer, since it was serviced and re gased there and after the ac has failed means the dealer should repair under warranty. You really need to approach the matter legally and seek help. Perhaps an email to Toyota uk customer service. Some Toyota dealers are worse than “ little men” down the road. 
For the subframe and the arm bolts, if the subframe it is not rusty and only the bolts are there is an option to cut and replace bolts only. 
This car was in bad shape when sold to you, not in original condition of it was anything applied underneath and you will need to fight for your rights. Imo either fix everything under warranty including ac and rust issues plus shocks or return the car for full refund as been sold non genuine car with serious problems. 
Good luck 

Hi Tony - thanks for your comments. Unfortunately i bought it in 2020, which puts way puts it past it's approved used warranty - will they not just tell me to go away given this (my past experiences have led me to believe they aren't worth what they are written on!) 

I do agree that it was miss sold though, to many issues aren't just going to have happened overnight. This was bought in covid where it was online only too, which was probably delightful for being a dodgy dealer.  

EDIT : How do you actually contact Toyota UK??? I've been poking around on the website trying to finding something and you are just directed to contact your dealer at every turn, which obviously i'd rather not do! 

[TonyHSD]

16 minutes ago, CaptainBogs said:

Hi Tony - thanks for your comments. Unfortunately i bought it in 2020, which puts way puts it past it's approved used warranty - will they not just tell me to go away given this (my past experiences have led me to believe they aren't worth what they are written on!) 

I do agree that it was miss sold though, to many issues aren't just going to have happened overnight. This was bought in covid where it was online only too, which was probably delightful for being a dodgy dealer.  

EDIT : How do you actually contact Toyota UK??? I've been poking around on the website trying to finding something and you are just directed to contact your dealer at every turn, which obviously i'd rather not do! 

Hi James, 

unfortunately I can not help any further with contacting a Toyota or seeking a legal advice which I believe you should, perhaps citizen advice office. Some other members here has dealt with issues have greater experience and I am sure they will share tips with you in short time. All I see and believe is that your car was not road worthy or with serious conditions before been sold as used approved car. I hope you will get more help from other members and find a solution that it will work for you. Car business is very dark and dodgy unfortunately. 
Good luck 

[CaptainBogs]

3 minutes ago, TonyHSD said:

Hi James, 

unfortunately I can not help any further with contacting a Toyota or seeking a legal advice which I believe you should, perhaps citizen advice office. Some other members here has dealt with issues have greater experience and I am sure they will share tips with you in short time. All I see and believe is that your car was not road worthy or with serious conditions before been sold as used approved car. I hope you will get more help from other members and find a solution that it will work for you. Car business is very dark and dodgy unfortunately. 
Good luck 

Indeed it is! - thanks for your help thusfar anyway. At least i'm learning as i go what to look for. Next car i'll be under it with a torch, checking the ac ect....! 

 

And thanks rob for the tip - If i get another Toyota (even after all this likely, i really like how the pre-corolla auris looks lol) i'll definitely look at that, it sounds like it's worked great on yours. 

[flash22]

Did you do a hpi check on the car ? Only time I have seen major rot is from a flood car, major rot doesn't form quickly I would also look at the MOT history

https://www.gov.uk/check-mot-history

I would stick a used subframe in the car

 

Failed a/c and major rot - the car has been sat in water

edit. A strut is the shock absorber and spring, the lower arm, aka A arm or lower control arm connects the bottom of the hub to the subframe

if you can post a pic

[Saxmaniac]

19 hours ago, APS said:

 

Regarding ACF 50 this is a good product for protection of suspension and subframe which Toyota only coat with a thin layer of paint. However it's expensive. Products like waxoyl leave a messy wax everywhere and in my experience the rust carries on merrily underneath. Dinitrol products are better but I'm using a lanolin based product, Fluid Film. This is very messy thin liquid that creeps into seams and creeps back when displaced. Needs doing yearly. I think this is going to be the best I've tried yet. When I bought mk 2 Auris I could see the rust protection was poor and took steps straight away. My experience with dealers is that they will tell you any old nonsense to avoid jobs they don't want to do, or guarantee work and that an approved used car should be treated with the same suspicion as one off the public. So get a second opinion at least 

[dervdave]

Lanoguard it !

Lanoguard | Rust Protection Product for Vehicles, Boats, and Machine

[Saxmaniac]

Here's a nerdy question on the subject of rustproofing. Does anyone know what the plastic bits are for, the ones that run along the sills, held in by oval plastic plugs? I considered these a trap for salt and the like and wanted to remove a plug to enable squirting fluid film into the sills. The plugs are not removable without damage so that idea is scrubbed. I still don't know if there's any attempt at wax coating inside the sills from the factory or has anyone heard of sills rotting out on these? 

[Wooster]

On 11/18/2022 at 1:04 PM, CaptainBogs said:

I do agree that it was miss sold though...

A few years ago i bought a five year old, 2010 Prius from a Toyota Dealer. Eight months after later it developed a serious knocking noise when the steering wheel was turned and it needed a new steering shaft.  Cost was £1200.  I returned to the dealer and they said I was only covered by their six month warranty.  I contacted Citizens Advice and followed their suggestions.  A day after I'd posted the (recommended) letter to the dealer they were on the phone asking when I'd like the work carried out - under warranty.  I copied Citizens Advice emails onto a document - and I've attached it.  I think it explains everything but I'm very happy to assist further.

Citizens Advice.pdf

[CaptainBogs]

Hi all, an update for you.

 

Upon  dropping the subframe it is apparently far to corroded to weld, so it had to go. Toyota quoted a whopping £1800 for this, but we where able to find one on eBay for a slightly more reasonable figure and it has gone on fine. So this year the following have had to go due to corrosion :

1. Both rear calipers

2. Rear Springs

3. Front Arms

4. Front Subframe

The bill is currently eye watering, although i took a quick scout around the used market and its very depressing (an 08 yaris with 90k miles is selling for £1000 more than i bought my ill fated Auris for in 2020!!). Best case i could trade it in for a new Toyota and maybe get 2k for it - which is barely a deposit nowerdays.

Rear subframe is probably going to have to go before the end of next year. I am still considering making a complaint to Toyota, something i forgot to mention in my original post was it had a "health check" with Toyota Truro with a service in March, and no corrosion was mentioned, yet it was significant enough to fail it's MOT! It seems very unlikely it rusted that much in 7 months...

Front Subframe (pre-removal). Final picture is it after removal (i think)

State of the rear :

On 11/18/2022 at 7:00 PM, flash22 said:

Did you do a hpi check on the car ? Only time I have seen major rot is from a flood car, major rot doesn't form quickly I would also look at the MOT history

https://www.gov.uk/check-mot-history

I would stick a used subframe in the car

 

Failed a/c and major rot - the car has been sat in water

edit. A strut is the shock absorber and spring, the lower arm, aka A arm or lower control arm connects the bottom of the hub to the subframe

if you can post a pic

Never did a HPI check but the MOT does interestingly show the front arms where "corroded but not seriously weakened" in 2019. Frustratingly i naively assumed as the 2020 pre-delivery MOT was clean that they had replaced these 😞

 

[flash22]

That has been under sealed to cover it up, but all it has done is trap the moisture and rot it out

[CaptainBogs]

1 minute ago, flash22 said:

That has been under sealed to cover it up, but all it has done is trap the moisture and rot it out

That does seem to be the leading suspicion. Cornwall isn't overall flood prone, and the cars previous owner seemed to take it to Toyota for literally everything, including wipers and and bulbs. I just find it suspicious that this wasn't mentioned at all during the 'health' check.

Definitely wont be taking it to Toyota for a service again (at least whilst i live here, the only two in Cornwall are under the same company)! The price premium seems to just get you stuff either covered up, or if we aren't assuming malice - obvious stuff missed!

Oh well, it's turning into a real Auris of Thesius at this point...!

[Mojo1010]

If I were you I would put in a complain to regarding the state of your car to the dealer and to Toyota uk. You may have some recourse to cost. What have u got to lose apart from time? Which you have spent so much dealing with these issues. 

 

[TonyHSD]

This car looks really bad for its age and mileage. I also believe that applying any underbody protection will cause more trouble and rust than help preserve the car and this might be a proof.
Best care against rust and keep underbody in clean shape is to wash regularly with water and let the car dry, drive often., avoid parking over grass. If you drive in winter occasionally on motorways treated with salt wash the car next day before you leave it without use for a couple of days. 
If me I will seek help and reimbursement from Toyota uk, it is obvious that the dealer has sold to you a car that is not anywhere near the quality of used approved car. 

[flash22]

re. not showing up on an MOT is it's covered up it can't be checked - a bit like what people did with old bangers, stuff the sill with newspaper, a bit of mesh, filler and cover it up with underseal, that would get it through an MOT

[CaptainBogs]

34 minutes ago, Mojo1010 said:

If I were you I would put in a complain to regarding the state of your car to the dealer and to Toyota uk. You may have some recourse to cost. What have u got to lose apart from time? Which you have spent so much dealing with these issues. 

 

Hi Mojo - i think that is the route i am going to take. I'm not hopeful, but if i can at least get them to replace the rear frame that'll save me the job down the road. It's the least they can do!! If i get any updates I'll update this post incase anybody finds themselves in a similar situation.

12 minutes ago, TonyHSD said:

This car looks really bad for its age and mileage. I also believe that applying any underbody protection will cause more trouble and rust than help preserve the car and this might be a proof.
Best care against rust and keep underbody in clean shape is to wash regularly with water and let the car dry, drive often., avoid parking over grass. If you drive in winter occasionally on motorways treated with salt wash the car next day before you leave it without use for a couple of days. 
If me I will seek help and reimbursement from Toyota uk, it is obvious that the dealer has sold to you a car that is not anywhere near the quality of used approved car. 

Thanks for the tips Tony, going forward i think i'll run it through the carwash it every week or two for the undercarriage spraydown - this a good idea? (I'm not to worried about the paint - perk of living in cornwall is gnarly hedgerash down the left side...!). I do quite high mileage, about 20k a year - salt will be impossible to avoid sadly but hopefully a regular washing schedule will help lessen the impact of that.

[Rhymes with Paris]

21 minutes ago, flash22 said:

re. not showing up on an MOT is it's covered up it can't be checked - a bit like what people did with old bangers, stuff the sill with newspaper, a bit of mesh, filler and cover it up with underseal, that would get it through an MOT

Exactly flash, which is why I turned down a local garage's offer to Shultz the underside of the Yaris instead of a proper job.

Hope the OP can get it sorted, that corrosion looks really bad.