Range and efficiency/consumption

[lightboxcar]

14 hours ago, philip42h said:

One pedal driving is fundamentally inefficient by design - it applies regenerative braking when it would be far more efficient to coast.

When we 'coast' with the ReGen Boost on ( one pedal driving ) the dashboard shows much more regen power then without the ReGen Boost

But we don't use adaptive cruise

And fairly sure we get more miles/Kw with the ReGen boost on

Maybe the bZ4X is different to the RAV4 ?  or we are not understanding it well

[lightboxcar]

23 hours ago, dab1054 said:

using the Car Scanner app to monitor

Thanks for all the really helpful info.  Received the OBD dongle and installed the Car Scanner app.

Will try out hopefully tomorrow

For anyone needing help to setup the app, we found this really useful video

 

Edited March 23, 2023 by lightboxcar
corrected video link

[leosayer]

Now my first take from this brilliant car

Consumption average 23.7KW/100miles or 14.7KW/100km only within city.

I have noticed two errors (I think software issues) if someone can help:

1. If you lower the height of the opening of the back door from the default value, then the switch at the back door close and lock doesn't work. Only the switch close works.

2. I have saved some phone contacts as favorites and it does save them. However, when I switch off the car and switch it on again, the favorite contacts get lost.

[philip42h]

22 hours ago, philip42h said:

One pedal driving is fundamentally inefficient by design - it applies regenerative braking when it would be far more efficient to coast.

Coasting makes use of the kinetic energy you already have; regenerative braking converts kinetic energy into electrical energy which you can then convert back into kinetic energy - and both transformations are relatively inefficient.

7 hours ago, lightboxcar said:

When we 'coast' with the ReGen Boost on ( one pedal driving ) the dashboard shows much more regen power then without the ReGen Boost

But we don't use adaptive cruise

And fairly sure we get more miles/Kw with the ReGen boost on

Maybe the bZ4X is different to the RAV4 ?  or we are not understanding it well

Yes, the bZ4X is different from the RAV4, but the laws of physics are the same. With the bZ4X you have the Regen Boost button to increase the level of regenerative braking; the only control the RAV4 driver has is through his/her foot on the brake pedal. But the principles are the same ...

We consume fuel / electricity to get the car moving at a certain speed. At this point the car has a certain amount of kinetic energy. If we stop accelerating and let the car coast it will gently slow down due to air resistance (etc.). This is the best way to make use of the energy we have - accelerate gently, don't go too fast, anticipate 'obstacles' as they arise, and, as far as possible, coast to a stop or until we can pick up speed again. 👍

That won't always be possible, and we will want to apply some additional braking force to slow the car further or to bring the car to a stop. Regenerative braking allows us to recover some of that kinetic energy through conversion to electrical energy so that we can use it again later. But the conversion processes are inefficient - we lose / waste energy on the way. So, coasting is a better use of energy than regenerative braking.

But regenerative braking is infinitely more efficient that mechanical braking - mechanical braking wastes energy largely as heat. Irrespective of the level of regenerative braking you select on the bZ4X, you will initially get regenerative braking when you press the brake pedal gently, and mechanical braking when you press the brake pedal more firmly - which is, of course, what you need in order to avoid crashing! But that does waste energy ...

When I first drove the RAV4 hybrid I rather wished that it gave more regenerative braking either by default of via a 'boost' switch - the car didn't slow as quickly as my previous diesel. It took me a few weeks to learn to drive an electrified vehicle - accelerate more gently, anticipate better, lift-off earlier and apply the brakes gently. The same will be true of the bZ4X.

That said, I drive in a rural location (or on motorways) and under normal circumstances can reasonably anticipate any hold-ups. As I understand, you drive primarily in London and while the lower speeds of urban travel are well suited to efficient use of an EV, it is quite possible that the stop-start nature of urban travel makes it more difficult to anticipate hold-ups and coast effectively. Under such circumstances, regen boost may be an easier way to go - easier for the driver to achieve a reasonable level of efficiency. And if that works for you ... 🙂

Similarly, I find adaptive cruise the easiest and best way to travel down a reasonably clear highway - motorway or larger A-road. It is reasonably efficient when the set speed isn't too much higher than the effective stream speed. But it doesn't work well on hilly or winding roads (where the car ahead can 'hide') or in urban stop-start environments.

[nielshm]

https://mobilsiden.dk/nyheder/opkoblede-biler/hvor-langt-koerer-en-elbil-paa-motorvej/

Motorway test with 130 km/h, 51 cars included.

And the worst... one guess. 56.5% worse than WLTP.

And the best... MG. Only 15% worse than WLTP.

[aiden1072]

The bz4x doesn't have true coasting, you can see it is regenerating a little even without the one pedal function. 

[bZ4X]

14 hours ago, nielshm said:

https://mobilsiden.dk/nyheder/opkoblede-biler/hvor-langt-koerer-en-elbil-paa-motorvej/

Motorway test with 130 km/h, 51 cars included.

And the worst... one guess. 56.5% worse than WLTP.

And the best... MG. Only 15% worse than WLTP.

So bz4x is one of the most efficient electric car in the world! Good to hear. 

[philip42h]

12 minutes ago, bZ4X said:

So bz4x is one of the most efficient electric car in the world! Good to hear. 

It's the other way around - the bZ4X appears as one of the least efficient EVs covered within that particular test / report.

[bZ4X]

4 minutes ago, philip42h said:

It's the other way around - the bZ4X appears as one of the least efficient EVs covered within that particular test / report.

Hmm yes right 🤔 but they must calculate this using usable net capacities which is 64 for bz4x. 

[philip42h]

34 minutes ago, bZ4X said:

Hmm yes right 🤔 but they must calculate this using usable net capacities which is 64 for bz4x. 

True, but there's just so much 'wrong' with that test / report that it isn't really worth worrying about.

It's time folk stopped obsessing about WLTP figures, accepted them for what they are - objective comparisons under laboratory test conditions - and recognised the obvious that they are a poor prediction of real world performance for EVs. (They are pretty good for ICE based cars including hybrids).

The other 'interesting' point about the test is that they ran the cars at 130 kph (81 mph) - which might be interesting if you are considering running an EV on the German autobahn or other Continental autoroutes but pretty pointless (and illegal) from a UK perspective. WLTP tests don't include running at more than 70 mph and include contributions at much lower speeds so comparison with tests conducted at higher speeds is just plain dumb. Speed kills economy - so while other cars may do better it's not really a factor that would have any interest to me. 😉

One thing Toyota could and should do is be more open about the useable Battery capacity - they are still quoting a gross 71.4 kWh while the informed media is now working on the basis of 64 kWh.

[lightboxcar]

On 3/24/2023 at 8:03 AM, philip42h said:

Yes, the bZ4X is different from the RAV4, but the laws of physics are the same.

Exclellent explanation, thank you.

But we have observed that when the ReGen Boost button is activated ( it's an either on or off option ) there is a notible "drag" when driving the vehicle.  This 'drag' is noteable even when driving with the accellerator pressed ( not just when released to slow down the car ).

It feels like it's an 'always on' situation , and if you turn off the ReGen boost, you can immediately feel the car go faster.

What we do not understand or know is whether there is constant regeneration.   For example when riding  a bycycle with a dynamo for the lights, the dynamo is always working.  Do these cars work like that ?  i.e. when driving with or without the ReGen on, is there an equivilent 'dynamo' continually putting some charge back into the Battery ?  It certainly feels like that with the ReGen button on

In either case, we like the ReGen boost, as it seems it feels like it will at least make the brake discs last longer !

[lightboxcar]

On 3/24/2023 at 4:25 PM, nielshm said:

Motorway test with 130 km/h

Wierd how the Solterra got quite a bit more range than the bZ4X, are they not essentially the same car ?

[nielshm]

4 hours ago, lightboxcar said:

Wierd how the Solterra got quite a bit more range than the bZ4X, are they not essentially the same car ?

The Subaru is a lot better, since it's rated to 414 km range with WLTP testcycle, and the Bz4x can do 504 km.

In the motorway test, the Subaru still manages 30 km. more range. 

Very Strange...

[cavities]

On 3/26/2023 at 2:25 PM, lightboxcar said:

Wierd how the Solterra got quite a bit more range than the bZ4X, are they not essentially the same car ?

The driver?

[ernieb]

7 hours ago, cavities said:

The driver?

Agreed, from my limited experience using the RAV4 PHEV in EV mode, the actual range achieved depends on how the car is driven, the topography and the weather both temperature and wind speed. These impact a normal ICE powered car in just the same way but because of the more limited EV powered range and potential difficulties in recharging they effects become more noticeable.

The other thing with an ICE powered car is that as the range reduces the weight of fuel, all be it a small amount, reduces with an EV it is effectively the same as when it was fully charged.

[philip42h]

On 3/26/2023 at 10:25 PM, lightboxcar said:

Wierd how the Solterra got quite a bit more range than the bZ4X, are they not essentially the same car ?

They don't specify which models of each car were used in the test and, while they are essentially the same car, the quoted WLTP range varies quite considerable with grade and wheel size.

The UK brochure for the bZ4X quotes WLTP ranges of 436-447 km for a FWD, and 411-414 km for an AWD. One cannot buy a bZ4X with a WLTP range of 504 km in the UK ... who knows what was actually tested?

The Solterra tests appears to correspond with an AWD Touring on 20" wheels with a WLTP range of 414 km - this would be pretty much identical to a bZ4X AWD Vision grade. Again, they don't say what the test car actually was.

And, as others have already said, the actual, real world, range achieved will depend upon the driver and environmental conditions at the time of the test ...

[ernieb]

I think that the Subaru are all AWD.

[philip42h]

25 minutes ago, ernieb said:

I think that the Subaru are all AWD.

There are various references on the web to a FWD Solterra and the EVDB has specs for one, but, as you say, there is no current option for a FWD Solterra in Europe or the US (and possibly never has been).

[ernieb]

Subaru make a big thing of being AWD so I’d be surprised if they suddenly offered a 2WD  version. I was invited to one of the first ‘look and see the car’ events with Subaru and talking to the people there they seemed pretty adamant that it would only be an AWD option in the UK.

[Cyker]

Boxer Engine + AWD has always been their thing.

They've done well with it tho'; Their full-time AWD is superior to almost everyone else's, and they're one of the few AWDs that can traverse terrain that usually needs a proper 4x4.

[Jenga]

We’ve just got the BZ4X AWD and are disappointed by the fact that you just turn the fans on low (as is usually standard to keep air flow and heat in the cabin) has a significant impact on the range. Prior to the BZ I had a BMW i3 which wouldn’t drastically change the range unless there was a significant amount of output needed to either warm the car up on a cold day or cool it down on a hot one with the A/C, and even then would only drop around 20 miles. The BZ seems to drop 60! 
what are we doing wrong or is this a fault? So full charge at the moment w/o fab on at all get 240 and with fan (NOT A/c) getting 191. Awful….

[Cyker]

Are you talking actual range drop you've experienced or just what the GOM (or range) is reporting?

If the latter, I'd take that with a pinch of salt - There is a reason EV people call the range indicator in their vehicles the GOM (aka Guess-o-meter)

It's only been ball-park correct in any EV and has never been very accurate, often over or under-reading.

Even the range meters in my ICE cars have never been particularly accurate and were always changing - I always go by how much fuel is left and the trip counter as I usually get a feel for how far the car will go on a full tank fairly quickly and trust that more than the estimated range!

I've heard mention the GOM in the bz4x just subtracts an arbitrary percentage of range when the climate control is on rather than actually trying to calculate it which, if true, would skew the reading even more inaccurately!

[Malop]

Toyota Europe have put a guide together on range efficiency which I think they may have created from this threads 🤣

 

[nielshm]

18 hours ago, philip42h said:

They don't specify which models of each car were used in the test and, while they are essentially the same car, the quoted WLTP range varies quite considerable with grade and wheel size.

The UK brochure for the bZ4X quotes WLTP ranges of 436-447 km for a FWD, and 411-414 km for an AWD. One cannot buy a bZ4X with a WLTP range of 504 km in the UK ... who knows what was actually tested?

The Solterra tests appears to correspond with an AWD Touring on 20" wheels with a WLTP range of 414 km - this would be pretty much identical to a bZ4X AWD Vision grade. Again, they don't say what the test car actually was.

And, as others have already said, the actual, real world, range achieved will depend upon the driver and environmental conditions at the time of the test ...

The test is danish, and you can buy a specific Bz4x with 504 km range .

The cheapest entry level  model can do 515 km. WLTP. 

[philip42h]

5 hours ago, nielshm said:

The test is danish, and you can buy a specific Bz4x with 504 km range .

The cheapest entry level  model can do 515 km. WLTP. 

The report is Danish. The test is German - "German Autobild has tested 51 electric cars on the same stretch of motorway at 130 km/h."

But that aside, I would be surprised if Toyota sold cars with significantly different specifications across Europe. Can you provide a link to Toyota publications that specify ranges of 504 km or 515 km?