Range and efficiency/consumption

[Beyondzerocustomerservice]

Thanks. Downloaded Google chrome and memory of Norwegian has been restored.

[Mister Mike]

7 hours ago, Beyondzerocustomerservice said:

Thanks. Downloaded Google chrome and memory of Norwegian has been restored.

No need to install Google Chrome. You can simply go to Google Translate and paste in a ‘foreign’ URL.

[bZ4X]

14 hours ago, philip42h said:

The key paragraph (reputedly from Toyota) is as follows:

I.e. they will reduce the size of the reserve so that drivers will have an apparently greater range and smaller reserve.

And they will implement a % SoC display.

But that apart, nothing will change at all ... 😉

And no timescale is given ...

Apart from reducing size of reserve, they may try to improve software to gain more range. Hardware and software must work perfectly synchronised to achieve best range reuslt. 

[adidev]

2 hours ago, bZ4X said:

Apart from reducing size of reserve, they may try to improve software to gain more range. Hardware and software must work perfectly synchronised to achieve best range reuslt. 

Frankly, this is what I'm hoping for. After my Prius+ recall, the MPG improved significantly – it sounded like they changed the power inverter settings as the pitch changed.

[Kieran78]

Still think though at this stage that any software update is at least 3 to 6 months away as with any software development there has to be a testing period, so my guess is Easter/early summer 2023 before we'll see it and you won't really know until next autumn/winter if it's made much of a difference.

[Goodgirl]

Am I right in thinking this car does max 200 miles in cold weather so there are no real cost savings if you have to charge x 2 per week at a a public charger = €50-60 which is the same  cost as filling it up with petrol….unless you have a home charger which is only moderately cheaper….then in summer is the range slightly better……I’m slowly regretting putting a deposit on it and May pull out….

[JARC1]

20 minutes ago, Goodgirl said:

Am I right in thinking this car does max 200 miles in cold weather so there are no real cost savings if you have to charge x 2 per week at a a public charger = €50-60 which is the same  cost as filling it up with petrol….unless you have a home charger which is only moderately cheaper….then in summer is the range slightly better……I’m slowly regretting putting a deposit on it and May pull out….

I believe there is still a considerable way to go before electric or hybrid is going to prove a viable cost savings. Yes I do appreciate there is also the subject of Global Warming. However I find it hard to believe that the majority of potential buyers are going to be paying more to save on emissions, than they are for saving money on fuel.

Regards and Best Wishes, John 

[Cyker]

It should still be cheaper than an equivalent ICE car, but the hybrids and plugins will be a close match for it.

They will be more expensive to run than the most efficient hybrids like the Yaris Mk4 'tho 

[Petro Luigi]

You're comparing Bx4x with a yaris... why? 

[Cyker]

Only if you don't read my whole post. And also because I like showing it off because it's awesome  

[dab1054]

5 hours ago, Goodgirl said:

Am I right in thinking this car does max 200 miles in cold weather so there are no real cost savings if you have to charge x 2 per week at a a public charger = €50-60 which is the same  cost as filling it up with petrol….unless you have a home charger which is only moderately cheaper….then in summer is the range slightly better……I’m slowly regretting putting a deposit on it and May pull out….

Yes, it's true that if you use public chargers there is currently little or no fuel cost advantage to the bZ4X or any other EV. Petrol/electricity prices might change of course in the future. However, if you can charge at home on a cheap night rate for EVs- currently around 12-15p/kWh - then it is certainly much cheaper than petrol. With my bZ4X (1500 mls since November) I am averaging 5.2p/mile when charging from home. This works out at £10.40 for 200 miles. This compares compares with around 15-20p/mile for my old Prius hybrid (which delivered around 50-60 mpg). If you can charge at work, sometimes for free, then even better! 

[Andy BZ4x]

The big winners are company car drivers due to the 'current' tax BIK calculations.

I currently drive a Landrover Discovery Sport Diesel, & when my BZ4X arrives (hopefully January 🤷‍♂️), I will save approx £400-£450 per month in income tax (based on 40% tax band) due to the vastly reduced Benefit In Kind (which is currently calculated on vehicle emissions). This is in addition to any potential savings in fuel running costs.

I think for every company car driver - this is a no brainer (i'm happy to suffer a bit of 'range anxiety' if I've got an extra £400-£450 in my pocket)! - until of course the government realise how much they are losing & change the tax laws. 

[Mister Mike]

20 hours ago, Andy BZ4x said:

The big winners are company car drivers due to the 'current' tax BIK calculations.

I currently drive a Landrover Discovery Sport Diesel, & when my BZ4X arrives (hopefully January 🤷‍♂️), I will save approx £400-£450 per month in income tax (based on 40% tax band) due to the vastly reduced Benefit In Kind (which is currently calculated on vehicle emissions). This is in addition to any potential savings in fuel running costs.

I think for every company car driver - this is a no brainer (i'm happy to suffer a bit of 'range anxiety' if I've got an extra £400-£450 in my pocket)! - until of course the government realise how much they are losing & change the tax laws. 

Get that tax advantage while you can! I can imagine the Chancellor licking his lips over this one. In the meantime, go for it. Sounds like you will save a packet.

[swoop5511]

Via @rfrancis073 from the US forum. Toyota officially disclosed the gross / nett Battery size. 

Toyota bZ4X: - LATEST: Toyota with long-awaited battery reveal (www-elbil24-no.translate.goog)

71.5 KW gross / 64 KW nett. 

That is the only thing that I am not happy with re my BZ4x purchase. Every issue the car has is correctable via a future software update - should Toyota wish to do so. But (!!!) Toyota happy let everyone assume the 71.5KW was nett size which would put below, but in range of its rivals in size / price (MEB, EV6, Ioniq5, potentially Ariya etc)

Range of the car as a whole is not an issue for me and my pre purchase WLTP rule of thumb works out exactly as expected. But, the principle of the matter is more than annoying. 

[philip42h]

1 hour ago, swoop5511 said:

But (!!!) Toyota happy let everyone assume the 71.5KW was nett size

I don't think that statement is really correct - Toyota has always been very clear the the Battery gross size is 71.4kWh. The limited details they have provided about the Battery have made this pretty clear. What is perhaps more of an issue is that they have not indicated how much of this is 'useable'.

And, either way, the published WLTP (lab test) figures can only be based on the useable capacity whatever that is ...

I look forward to seeing what Toyota actually publish.

[adidev]

Just curious, people complain a lot about BZ4X range, meanwhile I hear a lot of similar stories with other manufactures. Recent one on reddit:

[dab1054]

57 minutes ago, adidev said:

Just curious, people complain a lot about BZ4X range, meanwhile I hear a lot of similar stories with other manufactures. Recent one on reddit:

Just remember that there are a lot of people out there in the Battery EV world who really hate Toyota because of its perceived past anti-EV stance. And you are right about the bZ4X range complaints- just check any EV forum and you can see exactly the same complaints about reduced range in winter for almost all EV makes.  

[YarisHybrid2016]

Argh... what a screwed up situation this is. I heard bad things from the US about this car (wheels apparently literally falling off) which has put me off.

I haven't been much interested in EVs since 2015 when I was last shopping around. MMGW is total BS. Look up at the huge nuclear fireball in the sky and tell me again how a tiny bit of CO2 affects anything? Latest news is the water on the Moon comes from the solar wind. MMGW is a scam!

If someone wants to try and talk me into an EV, go for it! Unless we can stop the insanity that is ending ICE cars in 2035, we're going to be stuffed and forced into this nonsense at some point.

Any of the EVs worth talking about are almost out of my price range. I don't see that changing any time soon.

I know quite a bit about the Battery tech; it's the practicality of owning an EV that is the problem.

As for loss of range in winter. Yes? What did people expect? It's like fuel in summer - it expands and so the unit volume you can get in your car reduces. So with an EV, not only does the capacity drop but so too does the ability for the Battery to deliver the power it has. Very significantly so. An EV will be slower in winter, too.

[Kieran78]

Another bad result for the Bz4x 😒

Toyota BZ4X real life range test

 

[G S]

15 minutes ago, Kieran78 said:

Another bad result for the Bz4x 😒

Toyota BZ4X real life range test

 

Is it really a bad result?

He wasn't using ECO mode or one pedal driving, it was -2, he had winter tyres on, was not even wearing a jacket so pumping out heat to 20 degrees, and he was doing 75mph to 80mph on the highway and talks 220km to 330km range (140 to 200 miles) - seems good to me!

I expect one of these videos per week now where people want to jump on the band wagon and complain 

[ernieb]

It’s likely the way a lot of people will drive the car. Based on a large number of motorway trips I see many Tesla drivers tanking down the outside lane. I get the impression they are not worrying about setting the car up specifically to get the maximum Battery range.

However, I do agree that there will be loads of similar reviews being published daily some more realistic than others.

[bZ4X]

It looks like bz4x is one of the most efficient car in the market:

[dab1054]

Here are some real  efficiency numbers from my bZ4X Motion FWD since November last year. I calculated the kWh/mile from 100% to 100% charging (equivalent to mpg from topping up the tank each time). I used exact mileage and the kWh supplied from my home charge-point. I realise that there are some losses during charging (I've seen 5-15% quoted) so, for example 45 kW charge may deliver only 40kWh to the Battery. However, I have simply used the total kWh to charge the car back up to 100% without any correction, so it is probably a slight underestimate of the kWh/mile (maybe add ~10% to my numbers?).

Nov 155 ml,  3.5 ml/kWh (motorway)

Nov 173 ml, 3.8 ml/kWh (motorway)

Dec 129 ml, 3.4 ml/kWh (local)

Dec 93 ml, 2.7 ml/kWh (local)

Dec 90 ml, 2.4 ml/kWh (local)

Dec 105 ml, 2.8ml/kWh (local)

Jan 134 ml, 3.0 ml/kWh (local)

My range (on in-car display) at 100% charge has been between 273-288 miles, though I've never got near to this, my best being 203 miles with 20% Battery left.

These are in chronological order so you can see the effect of the cold spell in mid-December. t will interesting to see how the bZ4X efficiency will improve as we move towards spring and summer.

I haven't got to grips with the in-car ml/kWh numbers since it seems to reset when I'm not expecting (should reset itself after each charging session but this doesn't seem to happen consistently). My best efficiency between charges is 4.2 ml/kWh according to the in-car system but I'm not sure when I achieved this or over how many miles.

[adidev]

Cheers @dab1054, this is the worst part of the year for the BEVs and bz4x doesn't look that bad at all, weighed average 3.15m/kWh. Thanks for all the hard work, hope you'll carry on 😉

Also, in my opinion, this gives the best indicator of the performance - not how much of the Battery the car is using but how much it costs you to charge it.

[dab1054]

11 minutes ago, adidev said:

Cheers @dab1054, this is the worst part of the year for the BEVs and bz4x doesn't look that bad at all, weighed average 3.15m/kWh. Thanks for all the hard work, hope you'll carry on 😉

Also, in my opinion, this gives the best indicator of the performance - not how much of the battery the car is using but how much it costs you to charge it.

Yes, EV efficiency is an important point which often gets forgotten with all the concerns about range.  If you can charge from home at cheap night rates BEVs will save you a lot in running costs over the years. Even better if you have solar panels- free kWh in the summer months!

A bit more number crunching here. I can calculate overall efficiency since I received my bZ4X from its total mileage so far (1802 miles) divided by total kWh added (541 kWh). This comes  to 3.3 m/kWh average from 10 Nov to 5 Jan. 

In terms of cost per mile: when I charge from home at E7 cheap night rate (15p/kWh) my cost is between 4.4 and 6.5p per mile. From public rapid chargers I've paid between 58-75p/kWh which for me has averaged 18.8p/mile- not so good and actually about the same as my previous hybrid car (2008 Prius).