Range and efficiency/consumption

[Rajavina]

4 hours ago, bZ4X said:

Thank you for details. What about below software versions? Are these like mine any change:

 

MJ SW 1010

CA SW 1025

VP SW 1005

GD SW 2421

VD SW 1005

VE SW 1005

OD SW 1001

SM SW 1001

 

Where to look for these numbers

[bZ4X]

9 minutes ago, Rajavina said:

Where to look for these numbers

I will take a screenshot for you.

[Rajavina]

2 hours ago, Rajavina said:

Where to look for these numbers

They are exactly the same. Went through info details.

[Malop]

Update on my efficiency so far:

Picked the car up on 26th November with 7 miles on the clock and at 100% charge.

Charged it back up to 100% last night with 1,129 miles on the clock so total distance of 1,122

I've been tracking all my charges and I've put a total of 448.39 kWh into the Battery. This is measured from the charge point so includes wastage due to the charger and cable runs. This will let me calculate the grid to wheels efficiency, which is important from a cost point of view.

This gives me an efficiency of 2.50 miles per kWh over the winter so far. I've used pre-heating a number of times and have the heater in Eco Mode for all but one journey.

If I assume 12% loss from charge point to Battery I actually added 394.48 kWh to the Battery, giving me an efficiency of 2.84 miles per kWh (reference for the loss calcuation https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a36062942/evs-explained-charging-losses/) 

The interesting thing is that all but two charges are at my off peak rate of about 14p per kWh. One charge was an emergency charge at peak rate of 42p and one charge was at an Instavolt charge point at 75p. 

For those 1,122 miles the total charging cost for me has been £77.90. Giving me a 7p per mile rate. 

Granted I am lucky to be able to charge at home and have an off-peak rate but that's part of the reason for me buying an EV.

Based on the current rate of 148.59p per litre for unleaded, which is £6.76 per gallon, I'd need an ICE car with an efficiency of 97.6 MPG or 21.36 MPL (based on £77.90 buying me 11.5 gallons or 52.52 litres).

Happy to have my maths corrected by the way, this is all still a learning curve for me.

[bZ4X]

On 1/22/2023 at 6:04 PM, Malop said:

Update on my efficiency so far:

Picked the car up on 26th November with 7 miles on the clock and at 100% charge.

Charged it back up to 100% last night with 1,129 miles on the clock so total distance of 1,122

I've been tracking all my charges and I've put a total of 448.39 kWh into the battery. This is measured from the charge point so includes wastage due to the charger and cable runs. This will let me calculate the grid to wheels efficiency, which is important from a cost point of view.

This gives me an efficiency of 2.50 miles per kWh over the winter so far. I've used pre-heating a number of times and have the heater in Eco Mode for all but one journey.

If I assume 12% loss from charge point to battery I actually added 394.48 kWh to the battery, giving me an efficiency of 2.84 miles per kWh (reference for the loss calcuation https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a36062942/evs-explained-charging-losses/) 

The interesting thing is that all but two charges are at my off peak rate of about 14p per kWh. One charge was an emergency charge at peak rate of 42p and one charge was at an Instavolt charge point at 75p. 

For those 1,122 miles the total charging cost for me has been £77.90. Giving me a 7p per mile rate. 

Granted I am lucky to be able to charge at home and have an off-peak rate but that's part of the reason for me buying an EV.

Based on the current rate of 148.59p per litre for unleaded, which is £6.76 per gallon, I'd need an ICE car with an efficiency of 97.6 MPG or 21.36 MPL (based on £77.90 buying me 11.5 gallons or 52.52 litres).

Happy to have my maths corrected by the way, this is all still a learning curve for me.

Thank you @Malop for this article style notes. They are very helpful to calculate actual consumption.

I tried to use my bz4x after range show "0". What I noticed that you can see actual percentage from MyT app (including reserved). But when you click details it will show you range excluded reserved Battery please see my screenshots below 

1 mile range:

0 mile range:

After I drove little bit more after seeing 0 mile range, screenshot from MyT app:

And if you open Battery details in MyT app shows 0 range:

 

[Mister Mike]

1 hour ago, Malop said:

The interesting thing is that all but two charges are at my off peak rate of about 14p per kWh. One charge was an emergency charge at peak rate of 42p and one charge was at an Instavolt charge point at 75p. 

For those 1,122 miles the total charging cost for me has been £77.90. Giving me a 7p per mile rate. 

Granted I am lucky to be able to charge at home and have an off-peak rate but that's part of the reason for me buying an EV.

You are lucky to have a cheap off-peak rate. I looked into this, and found the market is quite volatile. I found the current tariffs offered by EDF and Octopus and started measuring exactly how much electricity we use. I put it all in a spreadsheet to work out the numbers. Off-peak rates inevitably come with higher daytime rates, so you need to be doing a lot of driving to (currently) switch to an EV tariff. For example, I estimate that my house uses an average of 13kWh per day plus an average of 7kWh per day for my car. I would lose money (a fiver or so each month) by switching to an EV tariff from EDF, as well as having the inconvenience of charging at night only. I would save a tenner a month by switching to Octopus Go, but again that rules out daytime charging.

As it is, there isn't much incentive for me to switch to an EV tariff. In the meantime, my Zappi charger has a neat facility that monitors all household power drawn from the grid, as well as the power sent to my car, so I can over time get an accurate measure of household via EV power consumption.

[Cyker]

If you're getting 7p/mile even with such awful efficiency you're doing well!  

You'll be killing it when the weather warms up and it can get back into the 3+mile/kWh!

You've got the right use-case for an EV; It's best when you can home charge, esp. if you've managed to get onto one of the super-low off-peak rates.

For me it would be a lot more expensive as I'd have to use public chargers; My Yaris is actually cheaper to run in that scenario, esp. as petrol prices continue to drop! (Albeit slowly...!)

 

[lightboxcar]

We're struggling a bit to figure out what efficiency we are getting, but it could be as low as 140 miles total range !!!

For example, took photos below :

at 459 miles driven, it said 30 miles left.  at 475 miles only 2 miles left.  So instead of 16 miles, it went down 28 miles !!!

The problem is our home EV charger is not working with the app, it won't connect, so it's hard to keep a track of how much charging Kw's we've used.  But we know we have charged up at least three times for the 481 miles driven so far.  They are coming out to hopefully fix the charger so we can use the app, might make things clearer.

It has been VERY cold, and have done quite a lot of short journeys, like just six miles, so that probably doesn't help.  We have the ECO button on all times.

One thing we only just discovered was a button with a wrench symbol next to the gear selector.   This apparantly makes the "regen" thing work.  If we use that it seems to make a dramatic improvement, with no real noticable disadvantage, and if you push the brake just very slightly the green bar on the dash really increases in size in the opposite direction to when you use power/accelerate.  So this could be a game changer with the range.

Also the heater takes a while to get hot, a lot slower than our ICE car.  Great heater when it eventiually gets going.  Again we found a button to recirculate the air, rather than draw it in from outside, and this makes the heater work  better and quicker.

The really annoying thing is that both the "regen" button, and the recirculate buttons forget thier settings every time you switch off the power.  This is really daft beause it's easy to forget to turn them back on !  The ECO button however seems to remember to stay on, and it also remembers the setting for the heater temperature too

 

[lightboxcar]

One more thing, when you switch off the power, the dash screen very briefly shows some sort of summary, like miles driven, and so much miles/Kw used, but ONLY for that single journey.

We cannot find anywhere, on the car or My-T app,  where it says how much the average miles/Kw is over the total miles driven.

Surely with all this modern technology, this should be a given, can't be that hard can it, or have we missed something ?

[bZ4X]

8 hours ago, lightboxcar said:

We're struggling a bit to figure out what efficiency we are getting, but it could be as low as 140 miles total range !!!

For example, took photos below :

at 459 miles driven, it said 30 miles left.  at 475 miles only 2 miles left.  So instead of 16 miles, it went down 28 miles !!!

The problem is our home EV charger is not working with the app, it won't connect, so it's hard to keep a track of how much charging Kw's we've used.  But we know we have charged up at least three times for the 481 miles driven so far.  They are coming out to hopefully fix the charger so we can use the app, might make things clearer.

It has been VERY cold, and have done quite a lot of short journeys, like just six miles, so that probably doesn't help.  We have the ECO button on all times.

One thing we only just discovered was a button with a wrench symbol next to the gear selector.   This apparantly makes the "regen" thing work.  If we use that it seems to make a dramatic improvement, with no real noticable disadvantage, and if you push the brake just very slightly the green bar on the dash really increases in size in the opposite direction to when you use power/accelerate.  So this could be a game changer with the range.

Also the heater takes a while to get hot, a lot slower than our ICE car.  Great heater when it eventiually gets going.  Again we found a button to recirculate the air, rather than draw it in from outside, and this makes the heater work  better and quicker.

The really annoying thing is that both the "regen" button, and the recirculate buttons forget thier settings every time you switch off the power.  This is really daft beause it's easy to forget to turn them back on!  The ECO button however seems to remember to stay on, and it also remembers the setting for the heater temperature too

 

And you were driving the car regen function activated!

[lightboxcar]

11 hours ago, bZ4X said:

And you were driving the car regen function activated!

Yes, but only started that very recently as didn't know about it.

Hopefully if they can fix the charger we can then figure out how many Kw's we are using

[bZ4X]

On 1/21/2023 at 9:23 AM, adidev said:

That clears one of my wonders - Toyota is using Here maps in this car 😉

Mine is still old map v1... And I dropped to dealer last week complaining on map update!

 

 

 

[lightboxcar]

Latest calculations, albeit on a small amount of mileage:

Charged up car to 77%, total mileage driven at that point : 475 miles

Today charge has gone down to 54%, and total mileage driven is now : 502 miles

So 23% of charge gave 27 miles driven.  That seesm to show 100% would give 117 miles total range !!

This is with the ECO button on, the "regen" button on, and AC on.  Average temperatures 5 degrees C.

Urban driving only, very moderate, not hammering the car in any way.

Will continue to carefully record and check.  But it seems the estimated range given is well wide of the mark in this case.

Really hope we are not understanding this correctyl, but if this is all the car can do, it is hugely down on 'official' range, and we will be disposing of the vehicle

[lightboxcar]

On 12/4/2022 at 12:37 PM, FROSTYBALLS said:

https://www.autocar.sco.uk/car-news/new-cars/electric-cars-best-real-world-range

Above link appears to have a typo, and it goes to a website with a security alerts, says it might be dangerous ?

think the link should read :

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/electric-cars-best-real-world-range

[bZ4X]

1 hour ago, lightboxcar said:

Latest calculations, albeit on a small amount of mileage:

Charged up car to 77%, total mileage driven at that point : 475 miles

Today charge has gone down to 54%, and total mileage driven is now : 502 miles

So 23% of charge gave 27 miles driven.  That seesm to show 100% would give 117 miles total range !!

This is with the ECO button on, the "regen" button on, and AC on.  Average temperatures 5 degrees C.

Urban driving only, very moderate, not hammering the car in any way.

Will continue to carefully record and check.  But it seems the estimated range given is well wide of the mark in this case.

Really hope we are not understanding this correctyl, but if this is all the car can do, it is hugely down on 'official' range, and we will be disposing of the vehicle

 

 

Try using airconditioner in eco mode too. When  press "auto" + "eco" A/C turns off. You will gain extra range.

[lightboxcar]

34 minutes ago, bZ4X said:

When  press "auto" + "eco

Ah !!!  Never even saw that switch.  We have the ECO symbol always displayed on the dash, so assumed we were already using it.

Now realise , confusingly , there are TWO ECO buttons, one on the centre console area, and one on the touch panel

Strangely the manual show a very different layout to what our BZ4X actually has, see attached photos !

So thanks for that tip, we will start using that right away.

Now we have to remember to press a whole bunch of buttons every time we drive the car :

First ECO button for ECO driving ( seems to remember the settings between drives )

Second ECO button for AC ( suspect it won't remember settign between drives ? )

Internal Air Cirulcator ( does NOT remember the settings between drives )

"ReGen" button in console are ( does NOT remember the settings between drives )

What a palava !!!

Also when taking the attached photo just now, noticed the actual driven distance was 506 on the dash, despite My-T sayin only 502.  So adjusting the above calcultions :

23%    =    31 miles    range for 100% = 135 miles

This is almost the exact same as we got last time we checked with same methid on 16 Jan.

Will now try with the ECO AC on, but unless that makes dramatic difference, we are looking at a range of around 50% less that official Toyota figures ( attached).

If that is correct, we do not feel that is at all acceptable and the car will absolutely be going back

Let's hope we are wrong...

 

[bZ4X]

On 1/26/2023 at 9:04 PM, lightboxcar said:

Ah !!!  Never even saw that switch.  We have the ECO symbol always displayed on the dash, so assumed we were already using it.

Now realise , confusingly , there are TWO ECO buttons, one on the centre console area, and one on the touch panel

Strangely the manual show a very different layout to what our BZ4X actually has, see attached photos !

So thanks for that tip, we will start using that right away.

Now we have to remember to press a whole bunch of buttons every time we drive the car :

First ECO button for ECO driving ( seems to remember the settings between drives )

Second ECO button for AC ( suspect it won't remember settign between drives ? )

Internal Air Cirulcator ( does NOT remember the settings between drives )

"ReGen" button in console are ( does NOT remember the settings between drives )

What a palava !!!

Also when taking the attached photo just now, noticed the actual driven distance was 506 on the dash, despite My-T sayin only 502.  So adjusting the above calcultions :

23%    =    31 miles    range for 100% = 135 miles

This is almost the exact same as we got last time we checked with same methid on 16 Jan.

Will now try with the ECO AC on, but unless that makes dramatic difference, we are looking at a range of around 50% less that official Toyota figures ( attached).

If that is correct, we do not feel that is at all acceptable and the car will absolutely be going back

Let's hope we are wrong...

 

Yes, very confusing! Once press eco mode/s, the car will remember them,, don't worry. I didn't see any benefit in using the car in eco driving mode by the way.

The dashboard is exactly what I have in my car except for button G.

[ernieb]

It’s seems sad that to get the range the car needs to be driven with the heating controls manipulated into various configurations. I just wonder what the settings were when Toyota submitted the car for the WLTP tests, no A/C - heating at all?

[philip42h]

46 minutes ago, ernieb said:

It’s seems sad that to get the range the car needs to be driven with the heating controls manipulated into various configurations. I just wonder what the settings were when Toyota submitted the car for the WLTP tests, no A/C - heating at all?

Yes, exactly that ... that's how the WLTP tests are specified to be run - in a lab at 23 degrees C with all accessories off. So that's how all manufacturers should do it. WLTP figures are supposed to be comparative rather than particularly realistic.

[egg]

16 hours ago, lightboxcar said:

Ah !!!  Never even saw that switch.  We have the ECO symbol always displayed on the dash, so assumed we were already using it.

Now realise , confusingly , there are TWO ECO buttons, one on the centre console area, and one on the touch panel

Strangely the manual show a very different layout to what our BZ4X actually has, see attached photos !

So thanks for that tip, we will start using that right away.

Now we have to remember to press a whole bunch of buttons every time we drive the car :

First ECO button for ECO driving ( seems to remember the settings between drives )

Second ECO button for AC ( suspect it won't remember settign between drives ? )

Internal Air Cirulcator ( does NOT remember the settings between drives )

"ReGen" button in console are ( does NOT remember the settings between drives )

What a palava !!!

Also when taking the attached photo just now, noticed the actual driven distance was 506 on the dash, despite My-T sayin only 502.  So adjusting the above calcultions :

23%    =    31 miles    range for 100% = 135 miles

This is almost the exact same as we got last time we checked with same methid on 16 Jan.

Will now try with the ECO AC on, but unless that makes dramatic difference, we are looking at a range of around 50% less that official Toyota figures ( attached).

If that is correct, we do not feel that is at all acceptable and the car will absolutely be going back

Let's hope we are wrong...

 

Photo from manual shows left hand drive layout (everything is flipped from one side to the other). The two lower ventilated seat icons, and the heated steering wheel icon is missing as you have Motion trim, not the Vision trim they are on

[dab1054]

On 1/26/2023 at 9:04 PM, lightboxcar said:

Will now try with the ECO AC on, but unless that makes dramatic difference, we are looking at a range of around 50% less that official Toyota figures ( attached).

If that is correct, we do not feel that is at all acceptable and the car will absolutely be going back

My experience so far (over 2000 miles Motion FWD) is that short journeys in cold temperatures are definitely the worst for efficiency since the heating is using a lot of kWh to get the car up to temperature (even with ECO setting used). Longer journeys are better (more than 20 miles) since the car will reach a stable temperature then use fewer kWh for heating. Unfortunately, It is the real world for ALL EVs that range plummets in winter- it's not just the bZ4X. If you check out EV database you can see real world ranges under different driving conditions for all makes of EV. These are just estimates, but a lot closer to what is really achieved. 

bZ4X FWD Real Range Estimation between 145 - 305 mi

City - Cold Weather *	205 mi
Highway - Cold Weather *	145 mi
Combined - Cold Weather *	175 mi

City - Mild Weather *	305 mi
Highway - Mild Weather *	190 mi
Combined - Mild Weather *	235 mi

Indication of real-world range in several situations. Cold weather: 'worst-case' based on -10°C and use of heating. Mild weather: 'best-case' based on 23°C and no use of A/C. For 'Highway' figures a constant speed of 70 mph is assumed. The actual range will depend on speed, style of driving, weather and route conditions.

[lightboxcar]

14 hours ago, philip42h said:

figures are supposed to be comparative rather than particularly realistic

Completely get that, but when we're looking only getting about 45%  of the published figures, it feels like something is badly wrong, really it's a huge difference !

[lightboxcar]

On 1/26/2023 at 9:19 PM, bZ4X said:

Once press eco mode/s, the car will remember them

Ok we drive about 50 miles today , and used the ECO/AUTO button as you recommended.  Have to say it seems to have significantly improved range:

START SOC         77%        TOTAL DRIVEN:    475 miles    indicated range:    190.6

current SOC        26%        TOTAL DRIVEN    554 miles    indicated range:    54.4 / 43.5

Got 79 miles for 51% drop on SOC, assumed range for 100% SOC = 155 miles.

Keep in mind only 50 miles of the 79 were using the AC ECO/AUTO function, so overall will be slightly better.

BUT here the catch:  

1.  They say it's not good to keep 100% SOC, it's better to only charge to 80% SOC

2.  Not many of us will like to drve to ZERO% SOC for risk of not finding a charger, so say min safe SOC would be 10%

That leaves about 70% usable, which on our figures so far, would mean a "real" winter range of 108 miles.

If the dealer had told us in winter we would have to "fill up" every 108 miles, there is no way we would have purchased the car, period !

This seems something that EV manufacturers simply don't / won't talk about, it's not just Toyota, although the BZ4X might be the worst perfoermer on range.

And none of this takes into account Ernieb's very valid comments above "car needs to be driven with the heating controls manipulated...."

It's actually worse that that.  Because the car does not rememeber the "regen" button settings between drives, you find yourself having to punch in a load of settings first before you drive off in order to get better efficiency.

A car should be a pleasure to drive, especially a fifty grand plus car !!   It feels with the BZ4X you are contunually checking your driving style, making sure ECO, REGEN and more are on, and glancing frequently at he remaining range/SOC.   That is stressful , NOT enjoyable.

It's a great shame, as the car has an awful lot going for it.

We just have to hope that Toyota will do  / can do , something to address this.

Will continue to test / tweak whaatever, but really it would be nice to just get in and drive the car without having to worry about all of this.

We have a RAV4 PHEV on order from a good while back.  If we ever actually see it, the BZ4X may be history.....

[lightboxcar]

4 hours ago, dab1054 said:

bZ4X FWD Real Range Estimation between 145 - 305 mi

And the AWD is worse, for sure

[bZ4xSupra]

I don't find pressing the regen button and adjusting the air conditioning settings to be an issue.

Takes three seconds.