Range and efficiency/consumption

[dab1054]

11 hours ago, lightboxcar said:

but really it would be nice to just get in and drive the car without having to worry about all of this.

It took me a few weeks to adjust to the bZ4X controls. Previously I had a 2008 Toyota Prius and things had moved on a long, long way since then. Honestly, you will quickly get used to it. Now, after switching on I just select A/C option (usually ECO- one press) and REGEN mode. That's it and drive away.

If you want to monitor your efficiency in real time you can do this on the central multimedia screen by selecting the 'current' trip mode under the car options. This gives a minute by minute update to kW/mile. Or you can continuously monitor kWh/mile on the central display using the steering wheel buttons to select the trip monitor. I found this helped a lot in understanding where my Battery kWh were being used while driving.

[Rajavina]

31 minutes ago, dab1054 said:

It took me a few weeks to adjust to the bZ4X controls. Previously I had a 2008 Toyota Prius and things had moved on a long, long way since then. Honestly, you will quickly get used to it. Now, after switching on I just select A/C option (usually ECO- one press) and REGEN mode. That's it and drive away.

If you want to monitor your efficiency in real time you can do this on the central multimedia screen by selecting the 'current' trip mode under the car options. This gives a minute by minute update to kW/mile. Or you can continuously monitor kWh/mile on the central display using the steering wheel buttons to select the trip monitor. I found this helped a lot in understanding where my battery kWh were being used while driving.

Yesterday I took mine for 210 miles drive after full charging at home (224miles). Temperature while charging must have been around 2 degrees. When I set off the  outside temperature was 7 degrees. I didn't use any heating throughout. Charged after 100 miles to 80% (£20). Charging time 40 to 45 mins. Reached my destination with 80 miles remaining. Efficiency was 3.3 m/kWh.

[adidev]

1 hour ago, Rajavina said:

Charged after 100 miles to 80% (£20). Charging time 40 to 45 mins. Reached my destination with 80 miles remaining. Efficiency was 3.3 m/kWh.

Do you remember, what was SOC when you started charging? Cheers.

[dab1054]

2 hours ago, Rajavina said:

Efficiency was 3.3 m/kWh.

That fits in well with my experience for long distance/motorway driving. 3.8 m/kWh best so far (in Nov when temp was 8C) and keeping to 60-65mph on motorway. Worst was 2.8 m/kWh doing 70-75 mph on motorway and with temp 0-3C. 

[Petro Luigi]

3 hours ago, Rajavina said:

Yesterday I took mine for 210 miles drive after full charging at home (224miles). Temperature while charging must have been around 2 degrees. When I set off the  outside temperature was 7 degrees. I didn't use any heating throughout. Charged after 100 miles to 80% (£20). Charging time 40 to 45 mins. Reached my destination with 80 miles remaining. Efficiency was 3.3 m/kWh.

No heating at all?.... It must be been brutal

[bZ4X]

16 hours ago, lightboxcar said:

Ok we drive about 50 miles today , and used the ECO/AUTO button as you recommended.  Have to say it seems to have significantly improved range:

START SOC         77%        TOTAL DRIVEN:    475 miles    indicated range:    190.6

current SOC        26%        TOTAL DRIVEN    554 miles    indicated range:    54.4 / 43.5

Got 79 miles for 51% drop on SOC, assumed range for 100% SOC = 155 miles.

Keep in mind only 50 miles of the 79 were using the AC ECO/AUTO function, so overall will be slightly better.

BUT here the catch:  

1.  They say it's not good to keep 100% SOC, it's better to only charge to 80% SOC

2.  Not many of us will like to drve to ZERO% SOC for risk of not finding a charger, so say min safe SOC would be 10%

That leaves about 70% usable, which on our figures so far, would mean a "real" winter range of 108 miles.

If the dealer had told us in winter we would have to "fill up" every 108 miles, there is no way we would have purchased the car, period !

This seems something that EV manufacturers simply don't / won't talk about, it's not just Toyota, although the BZ4X might be the worst perfoermer on range.

And none of this takes into account Ernieb's very valid comments above "car needs to be driven with the heating controls manipulated...."

It's actually worse that that.  Because the car does not rememeber the "regen" button settings between drives, you find yourself having to punch in a load of settings first before you drive off in order to get better efficiency.

A car should be a pleasure to drive, especially a fifty grand plus car !!   It feels with the BZ4X you are contunually checking your driving style, making sure ECO, REGEN and more are on, and glancing frequently at he remaining range/SOC.   That is stressful , NOT enjoyable.

It's a great shame, as the car has an awful lot going for it.

We just have to hope that Toyota will do  / can do , something to address this.

Will continue to test / tweak whatever, but it would be nice to just get in and drive the car without having to worry about all of this.

We have a RAV4 PHEV on order from a good while back.  If we ever actually see it, the BZ4X may be history.....

 

 

agree with you. Auto Hold and Regen must come with a memory function. I hate pressing those buttons every time.

If you press long "Park" (Hand brake) button, it will activate/deactivate automatic mode. I hope this functionality comes in Hold and Regen with future software updates.

[Rajavina]

2 hours ago, Petro Luigi said:

No heating at all?.... It must be been brutal

Seat heating was on. Had multi layer  protection. Had a coffee at McDonald's while charging. Other wise we might have to stop twice if you want to cover more than 200 miles in this climate. Each stop takes 45mins +.

Had to defog the car with windscreen blower on few occasions. Almost tried the same with return travel and got 3.3 miles/kWh.

[lightboxcar]

8 hours ago, Rajavina said:

I didn't use any heating throughout

Wow, you must be very hardy, no heating and only 7 degrees

[lightboxcar]

4 hours ago, bZ4X said:

agree with you. Auto Hold and Regen must come with a memory function

Not just those two button, but also the recirculate button.  We have found the heater works much quicker and better with the recirculate button ON.

Appreciate you said about onlytaking three seconsds to switch on, but when youin a hurry, it;s easy to forget.

Over time, it will hopefully become a habit, but memory functions must surely not be hard for Toyoya to make

[lightboxcar]

On 1/26/2023 at 8:30 PM, bZ4X said:

Try using airconditioner in eco mode too

This is turning out to be the greatest tip yet, Thank You !!!

We are now seeing 3.2 to 3.8 miles/Kw, short journeys like five to ten miles, six degrees C outside.   ReGen, ECO AirCon, Recirculate and ECO drive mode all ON.

This could mean we are looking at much closer to maybe 250 miles winter range urban, will confirm exact finding over this current charge ( starting from 93% today )

[Rajavina]

31 minutes ago, lightboxcar said:

This is turning out to be the greatest tip yet, Thank You !!!

We are now seeing 3.2 to 3.8 miles/Kw, short journeys like five to ten miles, six degrees C outside.   ReGen, ECO AirCon, Recirculate and ECO drive mode all ON.

This could mean we are looking at much closer to maybe 250 miles winter range urban, will confirm exact finding over this current charge ( starting from 93% today )

I have used Aircon in eco and driving in eco for long distances on M roads and managed to get 2.6m/kwh when the outside temperature was 3 to 5 degrees

[lightboxcar]

14 minutes ago, Rajavina said:

have used Aircon in eco and driving in eco

Are you using the "ReGen" button too ?

[Mister Mike]

3 hours ago, lightboxcar said:

We have found the heater works much quicker and better with the recirculate button ON.

You won't want to be doing that in chilly humid weather, as it will fog up your windscreen in no time.

[philip42h]

On 1/27/2023 at 5:51 PM, dab1054 said:

If you check out EV database you can see real world ranges under different driving conditions for all makes of EV. These are just estimates, but a lot closer to what is really achieved. 

I note that the EVDB folk have updated their information on the bZ4X (FWD and AWD) - specifically to recognise that while the Battery has a Nominal Capacity of 71.4 kWh, the Useable Capacity is 64.0 kWh. They have also added a charging profile.

The smaller useable Battery capacity reduces the Highway - Cold Weather range to 145 miles (from its previous 160 miles IIRC) - this is the worst case range estimation. The best case range estimates (City - Mild Weather) remain around the 300 mile mark.

In relation to the WLTP figures, Highway - Cold Weather range is around 50% of the WLTP figure (46% for the FWD, 51% for the AWD) while the City - Mild Weather range matches the WLTP figure (96% for the FWD, 105% for the AWD).

This all seems plausible, not out of kilter with other EVs and reasonably consistent with what owners have reported here ... I think ... 😉

[philip42h]

On 1/26/2023 at 9:04 PM, lightboxcar said:

Ah !!!  Never even saw that switch.  We have the ECO symbol always displayed on the dash, so assumed we were already using it.

Now realise , confusingly , there are TWO ECO buttons, one on the centre console area, and one on the touch panel

...

Now we have to remember to press a whole bunch of buttons every time we drive the car :

First ECO button for ECO driving ( seems to remember the settings between drives )

Second ECO button for AC ( suspect it won't remember settign between drives ? )

Internal Air Cirulcator ( does NOT remember the settings between drives )

"ReGen" button in console are ( does NOT remember the settings between drives )

What a palava !!!

Also when taking the attached photo just now, noticed the actual driven distance was 506 on the dash, despite My-T sayin only 502.  So adjusting the above calcultions :

23%    =    31 miles    range for 100% = 135 miles

This is almost the exact same as we got last time we checked with same methid on 16 Jan.

Will now try with the ECO AC on, but unless that makes dramatic difference, we are looking at a range of around 50% less that official Toyota figures ( attached).

If that is correct, we do not feel that is at all acceptable and the car will absolutely be going back

Let's hope we are wrong...

Your range calculation is flawed in as much as you are attempting to extrapolate from a very small sample of 'inaccurate' estimates. As far as I can tell the only way to build-up a realistic estimate of your real range is from 'brim-to-brim' refuelling / recharging figures (as others are doing) - once you have your charger sorted out, of course.

As I understand, the bZ4X supports two different levels of regen - 'Normal' which applies when you first apply the brakes and a 'One Pedal' style that applies regen as soon a you lift your foot from the accelerator. It should be noted that regen is inefficient (not a universal panacea) since it requires you to convert kinetic energy into electrical energy for storage in the Battery and then electrical energy into kinetic energy when you subsequently need it - both transformations are 'inefficient' - energy is lost.

The most efficient way to drive is to coast - use the kinetic energy you have to continue your journey - but this requires that the driver is both able to and indeed does anticipate the traffic conditions ahead in order to lift off early and avoid excessive braking. In a rural environment this is normally possible; in an urban environment maybe less so. The use of regen is clearly preferable to mechanical braking so regen may be the better model in an urban environment but can never be as efficient as 'coasting' done well.

As for the ECO settings, at least the bZ4X has separated out these two functions - on the RAV4 if you select ECO mode you get both ECO engine management and ECO ACC management. Personally, I put my comfort ahead of optimal economy so never use ECO mode of the RAV4. If I had a bZ4X I might be persuaded to use ECO performance, but I'd still never use ECO ACC ... 🙂

[philip42h]

On 1/27/2023 at 10:32 PM, lightboxcar said:

BUT here the catch:  

1.  They say it's not good to keep 100% SOC, it's better to only charge to 80% SOC

2.  Not many of us will like to drve to ZERO% SOC for risk of not finding a charger, so say min safe SOC would be 10%

That leaves about 70% usable, which on our figures so far, would mean a "real" winter range of 108 miles.

I think that you are being overly pessimistic here ...

There is absolutely no issue with charging to 100% / Battery full using a 'slow' AC charger - i.e. charging overnight for example. Then, as you say, most won't want to go much below 10% charge for fear of actually running out so your worst case cold weather range would be 90% of 145 miles = 130 miles of high speed motorway driving with the heating on in freezing temperatures! With a little more care in less inclement weather you should be able to go further.

For a longer touring journey you'd need to recharge at a rapid charger. Toyota then suggest a maximum of two rapid charges to 80%. Now your 70% figure is correct so that you can extend your tour by 2x 70% of 145 miles = 100 miles. So your worst case effective daily winter touring range is 330 miles in total.

Of course that relies on having sufficient charging infrastructure in the right places ... which may or may not be the case (yet).

I'm pretty sure that you could safely add a third and subsequent rapid charge but you'd be unlikely to get back to 80% in 30 minutes - but that just surmise in my part.

And, of course, in mild weather than touring range increases to ~430 miles ...

 

[lightboxcar]

14 hours ago, Mister Mike said:

it will fog up your windscreen in no time.

Yes, agree this car does tend to mist up a bit.

We read some other members used silica gel bag, so we got two 1Kg bags and have them on the dashboard under the windscreen.  Seems to mitigate a fair bit of the misting.   If it does mist up, then breifly opening/closing the window clears it.

The aircon in AUTO/ECO mode also might be helping , it seems to direct air to the windscreen

[lightboxcar]

3 hours ago, philip42h said:

the only way to build-up a realistic estimate of your real range is from 'brim-to-brim' refuelling / recharging figures

You are of course absolutely correct.

In our eagerness to understand the efficiency, we are recording every trip by distance and % SOC used, then extrapolating.

Starting on this cycle ( from yesterday ) we are, as you rightly suggest, starting from 'brim' or very nearly ( 93% SOC ).  We just havn't for one reason or another , done any decent long drives yet, but that will happen at some point, and will be informative.

[lightboxcar]

3 hours ago, philip42h said:

but I'd still never use ECO ACC ...

Yes, from our extensive reading of the RAV4 threads, we gather RAV4 owners generally seem to love their comfort.... 😀

[lightboxcar]

2 hours ago, philip42h said:

I think that you are being overly pessimistic here ...

Agreed.  Since we found out about the airon AUTO/ECO mode, the figures have imporved significantly.

To be honest, we have never yet used a public charger, so a little bit fearful having read many stories about broken or otherwise unavailable charging points.

Also need to fugure out the best way of route planning, can't see that the navigation can do this at present

[dab1054]

226 miles over last 10 days on one 100% charge (18 miles left on range meter)- best so far for me. Previous was 203 miles in mid-November 2022. It's generally been warmer over this period (8-10C) so I have good hopes for improving this as we move to spring and summer.

[lightboxcar]

On 1/29/2023 at 9:48 AM, philip42h said:

Your range calculation is flawed

Here is the latest, hopefully less flawed, results

    start mileage            554
    finsh mileage            690
    total miles driven        136

    start % SOC             93%
    finsh % SOC            16%
    % SOC used            77%

    estimated range for 100% SOC    177 miles

NOTE:  this is measured over six days, average of 23 miles per day, comprosed of urban only driving.  Regen and engine ECO mode on at all times, AC on approx. 50% of the time.  Average temeraturs 5 degrees C to 11 degrees C.

We are seeing anything from 2.6 miles/Kw to as high as 4.2 miles/Kw on the dash at end of journeys.  The higher figure included rather a lot of going down hills with no AC...

We have noted that having the AC on in any way at all, ECO or not, has a major impact on efficiency, perhaps as much as 30%

They still can't fix the charger connectivity so we don't know how many Kw's we are using to charge the vehicle.

Full Daily Summary:

START        93%        TOTAL DRIVEN:    554 miles    indicated range:    235.1 / 188.1

SOC        85%        TOTAL DRIVEN:    574 miles    indicated range:    212.2 / 169.8

                    8%    =    20 miles                range for 100% = 250 miles

SOC        81%        TOTAL DRIVEN:    580 miles    indicated range:    200.5 / 160.4

                    12%    =    26 miles                range for 100% = 217 miles

SOC        65%        TOTAL DRIVEN:    603 miles    indicated range:    160.7 / 128.6

                    28%    =    49 miles                range for 100% = 175 miles

SOC        41%        TOTAL DRIVEN:    643 miles    indicated range:    99.1 / 79.3

                    52%    =    89 miles                range for 100% = 171 miles

SOC        28%        TOTAL DRIVEN:    666 miles    indicated range:    64.4 / 51.5

                    65%    =    112 miles                range for 100% = 172 miles

SOC        16%        TOTAL DRIVEN:    690 miles    indicated range:    32.3 / 25.8

                    77%    =    136 miles                range for 100% = 177 miles

 

 

[lightboxcar]

1 hour ago, dab1054 said:

226 miles over last 10 days on one 100% charge (18 miles left on range meter)-

That is really excellent !  Thanks for the update

Assuming you are not using AC ?

Is it a mix of urban / motorway etc ?

[lightboxcar]

Over 7,000 miles range with bZ4X  !!!

Did a short ( very short ) trip down hill with the bZ4X.

Got 99.9 miles / Kw

With a 71Kw Battery that would give a 7,000 miles range.

Now we just need to find "all downhill" routes on the SatNav......  😀

[dab1054]

1 hour ago, lightboxcar said:

That is really excellent !  Thanks for the update

Assuming you are not using AC ?

Is it a mix of urban / motorway etc ?

Mostly short journeys (5-10 miles) with a few longer trips at around 20-30 miles. Maybe only 10-15% motorway. Used A/C in ECO mode (18C) on most journeys until last few days when I found the heated seat was enough to keep me happy with the occasional blast from the front screen heater to remove any misting.

You'll find it much easier to do calculations  once you have your charger sorted out- and vastly more convenient.

For first my 2532 miles (Nov-Jan) the car needed a total of 759 kWh making an average efficiency 3.34 miles/kWh- not great, but probably acceptable for winter.  Last 3-400 miles my journeys I have been seeing around 4 m/kWh average so efficiency is gradually improving.