Range and efficiency/consumption

[lightboxcar]

28 minutes ago, dab1054 said:

average efficiency 3.34 miles/kWh

Considering how cold it has been, think you are doing great.  Your driving style must be excellent

Apparently Tesla's can drop 50% of range in winter,m they got fined for not disclosing this :

https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/electric/electric-cars-winter-battery-range/

 

[Cyker]

I thought that was a bit unfair - Even my Yaris takes a significant hit in the cold. As a general rule of thumb, the more efficient the car, the more it's affected by the cold.

I wonder if the reason they drop so much range is the same reason my Yaris does - Heating. The Battery doesn't lose energy, it just can't release it as quickly because the chemical reaction is slowed. Electronics are actually more efficient in the cold (Usually!), as everything has slightly lower resistance.

 

[lightboxcar]

8 minutes ago, Cyker said:

wonder if the reason they drop so much range is the same reason my Yaris does - Heating

We think this is one of the key areas.  The bZ4X seesm to really take a hit on range with the heating/AC on.

On the next charging cycle we are going to try and get though a whole 'tank' of electricity without using the heating/AC at all.

It's forecast to drop below zero again in the next few days, so will be wrapping up, might get some thermal gloves too....

 

[Cyker]

Be interested to see your results!

I did the same in my Mk4 and got vaguely similar mpg to warmer weather, maybe dropping a handful of mpg.

In the recent cold snaps, I cracked and had to use the heater (Why does it always feel colder *in* the car?!), and because that made the engine run virtually all the time, I dropped from my usual mid-70's+ mpg to mid-50s - Quite a big hit!

Interestingly, the car's calculations still haven't recovered, and predicted range is still 50 miles down from what it used to be!

[HSDish]

Saw this in a Swedish car mag. (translated with Microsoft)

The Norwegian motor organization NAF and the car magazine Motor have done a new winter test. This time, the range of 29 different electric cars was tested.

The circumstances were not the most favorable. The test distance is relatively hilly and the temperature was between 5 and 10 degrees below zero for most of the time, but dipped all the way down to minus 19 degrees.

Toyota's first electric car bZ4x has previously been criticized for short range. Shortly before the test, the all-wheel drive version was removed from the Norwegian market, so it was the two-wheel drive version that was tested. But this one too failed to impress.

 Toyota has defended itself against the criticism with the bZ4x coming significantly further than the range gauge showed. It also made the test car, it went a full 40 km with the meter of 0 km. By the time the car drained the Battery, it had managed 323km, which is a whopping 36 per cent less than the official WLTP range.

Range of electric cars in winter

Car model	Official scope	Reach achieved	Difference
Tesla Model S	634 km	530 km	–16,40%
Tesla Model X Plaid	543 km	444 km	–18,23%
Nine ET7	580 km	434 km	–25,17%
BMW i4 eDrive40	565 km	434 km	–23,19%
BMW i7 xDrive60	595 km	424 km	–28,74%
Mercedes EQE 300	614 km	409 km	–33,39%
Bid He	521 km	406 km	–22,07%
Nissan Ariya 2WD	533 km	400 km	–24,95%
Voyah Free	501 km	391 km	–21,96%
Hongqi E-HS9(prototype, 120 kWh)	515 km	389 km	–24,47%
Volkswagen ID.5 Pro	526 km	378 km	–28,14%
MG ZS Long Range	440 km	352 km	–20,00%
Kia EV6 GT	424 km	349 km	–17,69%
Hyundai Ioniq 5 4WD	454 km	345 km	–24,01%
Kia Niro EV	460 km	343 km	–25,43%
Skoda Enyaq RS Cup	510 km	338 km	–33,73%
MG 4	425 km	338 km	–20,47%
Tesla Model Y	455 km	337 km	–25,93%
BMW iX1	428 km	337 km	–21,26%
Mercedes EQB 250	452 km	334 km	–26,11%
Toyota bZ4X 2WD	503 km	323 km	–35,79%
JAC e-JS4	433 km	323 km	–25,40%
Renault Mégane	428 km	318 km	–25,70%
Maxus Euniq 6	354 km	317 km	–10,45%
MG 5	380 km	313 km	–17,63%
Byd Act 3	420 km	311 km	–25,95%
Volkswagen ID.Buzz	408 km	310 km	–24,02%
MG Marvel R	370 km	308 km	–16,76%
Hongqi E-HS9	465 km	303 km	–34,84%

Source: NAF

[ernieb]

So the Toyota 2WD came at the bottom of that test group. I wonder how the AWD version would have done in the test.

[philip42h]

They are still obsessing about cold weather "test range" as a percentage of WLTP - which is, frankly, rather silly. That said, it remains true that, in this specific test, the bZ4X at 64% doesn't look too great (if that's what your primary criterion is).

Equally, the results show that the bZ4X achieve a range of 200 miles in this specific test which was further than one third of the cars tested (and not as good as the other two thirds). But there again, the results don't list price, Battery capacity or vehicle weight.

[richie69]

8 hours ago, ernieb said:

So the Toyota 2WD came at the bottom of that test group. I wonder how the AWD version would have done in the test.

Toyota and Subaru pulled out their AWD's the last minute. A lot of people speculate why, the obvious theory that the range would've been way worse as it has been proven to be so in the Nordic countries this winter. I personally would be okay with "just" a 250km range (temp being -15C), but many are not. Let alone when the range drops to 120km when temps are -30C. That combined with the rather slow charging speed at low temps (compared to almost any other EV, not Mazda MX-30 though...). A lot of people here (Finland) feel disappointed and misled by Toyota, some have cancelled orders or put their cars on sale. The "good" thing is that if you want to buy one you might get it in a month or two because the cancelled orders are already on their way here 🙂 .

[richie69]

6 hours ago, philip42h said:

They are still obsessing about cold weather "test range" as a percentage of WLTP - which is, frankly, rather silly. That said, it remains true that, in this specific test, the bZ4X at 64% doesn't look too great (if that's what your primary criterion is).

Equally, the results show that the bZ4X achieve a range of 200 miles in this specific test which was further than one third of the cars tested (and not as good as the other two thirds). But there again, the results don't list price, battery capacity or vehicle weight.

Might be the case in the UK, but in the north this comparison between WLTP and the real consumption during winter time tells just how inefficient different cars get in the winter and this percentage is a good indicator of that. Everybody realizes, that the range will be shorter during winter, but these results from Toyota are very poor and a lot of people weren't ready for such a drop. Mind you the climate isn't even that extreme during this test.

Here's a picture from a Finnish forum, range 52km and half of the Battery still charged, AWD version:

[philip42h]

1 hour ago, richie69 said:

Here's a picture from a Finnish forum

The image posted shows a temperature of -27 degrees C and an efficiency of 38.4 kWh/100km. That's 1.6 miles/kWh and would give the bZ4X a range on a full charge of just 100 miles (if I've done the sums correctly). Whether or not that is 'sufficient' will depend on the driver and intended mode of use ...

The cold weather efficiency of the bZ4X is clearly disappointing - at least for owners or potential owners. But in relation to the specific test it is not uniquely so:

• The efficiency of the Skoda Enyaq, Mercedes EQ, BMW i7 and VW ID.5 are only marginally better.
• The efficiency of the MG5 and MG Marvel is much better - but the actual range is worse.

The obvious takeaway is that, based on this set of tests, you want a Tesla Model S - if you can afford one.

But they also clearly show that current WLTP testing isn't fit for purpose - especially if one is living in a colder climate. What potential EV consumers need is a better test standard ...

[dab1054]

9 hours ago, philip42h said:

They are still obsessing about cold weather "test range" as a percentage of WLTP - which is, frankly, rather silly. That said, it remains true that, in this specific test, the bZ4X at 64% doesn't look too great (if that's what your primary criterion is).

Equally, the results show that the bZ4X achieve a range of 200 miles in this specific test which was further than one third of the cars tested (and not as good as the other two thirds). But there again, the results don't list price, battery capacity or vehicle weight.

It will be interesting to see if Toyota will free up some of the apparently 'locked in' Battery kWh- only 64kWh available of 71.4kWh total Battery capacity so 7.4kWh margin whereas Tesla for example has only 2-3kWh margin.  An extra 4-5kWh could easily free up approx. 15-20 miles for the bZ4X, putting in very much in the middle group in the test. Toyota's original plan seemed to put Battery longevity ahead of real world range (as opposed to WLTP range) - but let's see if they produce any tweaks in the next few months.

Clearly some cars will be more (or less) efficient, but I suspect there is a large margin of error in the Norwegian data because of how difficult it must be to control variations in important factors such as temperature, wind, car heating settings, etc- all of which will have a big impact on range. I assume they tried to make these factors as equal as possible, but unless they drove all the cars in a long convoy on the same day it is hard to see how they could keep conditions the same for all vehicles.

[Mark Price]

Hi all.

Just to share some info from my own experience. Just drove from Cambridge to Glasgow in my 2wd Motion and after 780 miles in total, averaged 3.6m/KWh - had to do two charge stops up and back (starting on 100% each time) - this was just last week, so temps didn't get higher than 10c at best, mostly low temps/wind/rain.

I admit no heating on and just turning on to demist now and then. heated seats of course 😉 but car did really well, was very comfy and you can do long trips if you plan your stops.

[HSDish]

I think that a lot of people think that Toyota was a bit late on the ball with an all electric car so... when the Bz4x finaly came the expectations where wery high and the judgement harder ( as "philip42h" says abowe "the Skoda Enyaq, Mercedes EQ, BMW i7 and VW ID.5 are only marginally better." )

[Mo P]

Hi, ok short trip, but promising, temp around 8 degrees

[My1stEvBZ4x]

On 2/9/2023 at 11:54 PM, Mark Price said:

Hi all.

Just to share some info from my own experience. Just drove from Cambridge to Glasgow in my 2wd Motion and after 780 miles in total, averaged 3.6m/KWh - had to do two charge stops up and back (starting on 100% each time) - this was just last week, so temps didn't get higher than 10c at best, mostly low temps/wind/rain.

I admit no heating on and just turning on to demist now and then. heated seats of course 😉 but car did really well, was very comfy and you can do long trips if you plan your stops.

Just wondering if you get chance to switch with Ioniq5/EV6/ModelY ? will you go for it

[bZ4X]

On 2/15/2023 at 11:19 AM, My1stEvBZ4x said:

Just wondering if you get chance to switch with Ioniq5/EV6/ModelY ? will you go for it

No, they all have range problem. At least I am safe with Toyota for 10 years with the included worry free warranty and Toyotas reliability. And ok I like Kia EV6 exterior design the rest cannot compete with bz4x. I am waiting first two major software updates . I am pretty sure, they will sort many problems out with these updates. 

I was thinking of buying a Nissan Ariya.  I drove but I couldn't open the boot 😅.  I didn't buy the Nissan Ariya because 1) the car only comes with 3 years warranty 2) they took the demo vehicle to the auto show and the auto tailgate stopped working after one auto show 😁. 

Imagine the Korean brand cars! 

[adidev]

41 minutes ago, bZ4X said:

No, they all have range problem. At least I am safe with Toyota for 10 years with the included worry free warranty and Toyotas reliability. And ok I like Kia EV6 exterior design the rest cannot compete with bz4x. I am waiting first two major software updates . I am pretty sure, they will sort many problems out with these updates.

I'm looking to get a new car. I don't want to buy hybrid, as I already have one. Tesla is just not for me, the only reason for Tesla is FSD and that comes with the price. bZ4x and EV6 are the only ones I like. I saw bZ4x in person and I know EV6 owner. His comments sound the same as people here - slow charging, "massive" range lost, recalls.

[My1stEvBZ4x]

18 minutes ago, adidev said:

I'm looking to get a new car. I don't want to buy hybrid, as I already have one. Tesla is just not for me, the only reason for Tesla is FSD and that comes with the price. bZ4x and EV6 are the only ones I like. I saw bZ4x in person and I know EV6 owner. His comments sound the same as people here - slow charging, "massive" range lost, recalls.

Good to know your opinion as you are using the car. The problem for me is I don't have an option to charge my car at home. So I need to rely on public chargers. How is your experience especially with AC 6.6 KW max speed. 

[adidev]

2 minutes ago, My1stEvBZ4x said:

Good to know your opinion as you are using the car. The problem for me is I don't have an option to charge my car at home. So I need to rely on public chargers. How is your experience especially with AC 6.6 KW max speed. 

I'm sorry I confused you, I'm looking to buy bZ4x, I own Prius+ at this moment 😉

[Graham100]

Hello.

The bZ4X is a lovely car, except for its awful range.

I have an AWD that supposedly does 285 miles and 3.9 miles/kWh.

Utter rubbish.

I have never seen a range displayed above 214 miles and it immediately drops to 150-160 when you turn the heater on.

Why that should be with, say, a 2kWh heater drain on a 64kWh+ Battery I can't understand.

By the way, the heating is very slow and doesn't feel anything like a 2kW heater!

I have tried every trick mentioned in this forum.

I typically achieve around 175 and 2.8 with minimal/little heating and around 150 and 2.4 with moderate heating.

This is not in the artic, but typical UK winter temperatures of 6-9C.

For two years prior to this I had a Kia E Niro.

I regularly achieved a range around 250 miles; regardless of whether the heater was on or off, regardless of whether the trips were short or long and regardless of whether I was in a hurry or not.

Yet the Niro and bZ4X are similar size and weight cars.

Albeit the Niro was 2WD, the bZ4X has a supposedly much larger Battery!

[dab1054]

6 hours ago, My1stEvBZ4x said:

Just wondering if you get chance to switch with Ioniq5/EV6/ModelY ? will you go for it

I looked at Ioniq 5, EV6, Kona, Tesla Model Y, NiroEV at same time as bZ4X. Had test drives in all. Of these I liked bZ4X best (obviously I bought it) and Ioniq 5 was a close second. EV6 was good but wrong shape for me. Kona and NIRO EV were best value but a bit noisy and to get equivalent spec to bZ4X you had to go for top of range (not far off bZ4X Motion price). Model Y- just not too happy about build quality/comfort and road noise but software was great and the Superchargers a major asset. Back in April/May last year the price of Model Y was way too high- now it seems more competitive.

bZ4X spec still looks good compared to nearest rivals. I haven't had the big problems others have reported with winter range/efficiency but the FWD bZ4X seems more efficient than the AWD.

[Cyker]

"The XYZ is a lovely car, except for its awful range." is a statement that applies to almost all EVs at the moment IMHO  

The bz4x is about par tbh; Comparing it to a Niro/Kona is a bit harsh as those are the most efficient non-Tesla EVs still.

Unless it fits your use-case, current EVs just aren't as practical as ICE cars. IMHO the only ones worth looking at in this current time are either Tesla or the Niro/Kona.

Tesla because they have the best drive trains, the best software and the best charging network. The cars themselves are a bit sub-par for the money, and are very Marmite. They are like Apple computers in many ways - Closed ecosystem; You do everything their way. But they just... work. Because they control everything end-to-end, they can make the user experience more streamlined.

The Kona and Niro have the best range and efficiency in EVs that normal mortals have a chance to afford. Taycan etc. are real nice but not everyone is a Shmee150! But non-Tesla EV have to deal with public charging network, which is just a disgrace at the moment.

Home charging and confining your journeys to within half your EV's range is hands down the way to have best experience with an EV right now. It's nice waking up to a car with full range every morning!

As soon as you step out of that, it's a minefield - Need to pre plan route with plenty of contingencies, can't just hoon off on a random route for lulz, and need to have a bazillion charger apps installed and register to all of them just in case or get utterly gouged on the contactless charges, or have the special fob for that charger etc., and then finding a charger that is free and working, esp. during holiday rush, can be very frustrating.

[bZ4X]

On 2/15/2023 at 4:29 PM, Graham100 said:

Hello.

The bZ4X is a lovely car, except for its awful range.

I have an AWD that supposedly does 285 miles and 3.9 miles/kWh.

Utter rubbish.

I have never seen a range displayed above 214 miles and it immediately drops to 150-160 when you turn the heater on.

Why that should be with, say, a 2kWh heater drain on a 64kWh+ battery I can't understand.

By the way, the heating is very slow and doesn't feel anything like a 2kW heater!

I have tried every trick mentioned in this forum.

I typically achieve around 175 and 2.8 with minimal/little heating and around 150 and 2.4 with moderate heating.

This is not in the artic, but typical UK winter temperatures of 6-9C.

For two years prior to this I had a Kia E Niro.

I regularly achieved a range around 250 miles; regardless of whether the heater was on or off, regardless of whether the trips were short or long and regardless of whether I was in a hurry or not.

Yet the Niro and bZ4X are similar size and weight cars.

Albeit the Niro was 2WD, the bZ4X has a supposedly much larger battery!

Bz4x starts heating 4-5 minutes later when u turn on. And it drains Battery %20-%30 extra when you use it. 10kwh usage = 7 kwh for driving + 3 kwh for heating system (at 5-7 degree celsius). 

Imagine cold countries, bz4x wouldnt make 100 miles with full Battery at -20°

But this is mentioned before range is a car common problem for all EVs currently. Just wait for the first 2 major software updates then we will see the actual consumption and efficiency. 

[bZ4X]

Main problem is not range here but charging points for me.

I use Toyota Smart Charging Service and %30 of the charging points are private or not open to public use. I hope soon we will have much more charging points with cheaper fees. 

I saw this article at Financial Times:

Tesla to open up US charging network to other electric vehicles

https://www.ft.com/content/107d0422-e483-49a6-aae3-b714887fa13f

I hope they will rollout this in the UK too. 

[Cyker]

I believe they are but I think you need an account and an app - no contactless - and it's going to be more expensive than to Tesla owners.