Justice.

[Rhymes with Paris]

Has anyone just watched 24 hours in police custody on channel 4?

For those that did not see it,it concerned a decision whether to charge a 31 year old man with GBH.

Of course the decision ultimately rests with the crown prosecution service,or CPS,on information given to them by the police, it looked like two young gentleman,cough, spit, decided to rob a private garage, armed with crowbars.

The homeowner gave chase in a big Merc, and apparently knocked the burglars off a stolen motorbike, and severely injured one of them, claiming he lost control of the car on a bend.

No one who is sane would condone seriously injuring or causing life threatening or life changing injuries to these "gentlemen" by running them down.

But I cannot help thinking that if they had not been there in the first place, stealing and robbing, then there would have been no problem for them.

So really, I am asking if real victim of crime here,has been spun around into the criminal.

Yes, the law ,has to be adhered to, but is it in the spirit of justice?

[Bernard Foy]

Quite a lot of the time the law bears no relation to justice. 

[FROSTYBALLS]

Not something I intentionally watch, though have caught bits of it in the past (do watch the current series of Police Interceptors and Motorway Cops).

I suppose as he gave chase to the two crims, it depends what his intentions were should he have caught them before crashing into them. 

If he'd disturbed them and detained them on the premises, the Police may have turned somewhat of a blind eye if one of both had been injured within reason.

Difficult one.

[Bper]

When the CPS regularly decides not to prosecute the perpetrators what justice does the victim get. Many homeowners take the law into there hands right or wrong that is a desision only they can make.

I think what many people will never understand is the mental issues this can have long term with  fear, anxiety, trust, etc all caused by some low life who finds it easier to take from others then working for a living.

[DerekHa]

Hi folks,

I didn't watch the episode mentioned but have watched many of these programs aired in the past. Always like a busman's holiday for me, I served for over 26 yrs with West Midlands Police.

Has always been the case that you're allowed to use reasonable force to defend yourself, family or property. Police officers are given additional powers to allow for making arrests but there was still the overiding "reasonable force". It's a very vague term and there have been many famous instances in the media where an initial victim of crime has been charged with offences related to them trying to make citizens arrests/defend themselves or their property. There have also been cases of the Police themselves finding themselves charged with offences when an arrest has gone wrong, or they have abused their powers.

For more than half my service it was the Police who made the descision(s) on who or what offences to charge given the circumstances and CPS prosecutioned in the courts, they could advise but the police had the final say. That changed for better or worse when CPS were given that responsibilty for making the decisions on charging/prosection based on the likelyhood of the case succeeding before the courts. The roles were very much reversed.

CPS were given that responsibilty due to unease about the level of Police cases failing or charges being inappropriate. From what I see now things are no better maybe worse as those scales of justice are often weighted in the wrong direction.

During my time I saw thieves/burglars and thugs fall foul of their victims and being meted out instant justice if you like. More often that not it could be justified but have seen or known of instance where people have gone overboard, the old red mist descended, and serious injuries recieved or even lives lost. It's not always the case that decisions on fault or intent are easy to make, it's a very emotive subject on occasions and difficult to decide where the lines between right and wrong lie.

 

[2toyos]

I strongly believe you should be able to defend what is yours, we have relied on the police here, after our hybrid was targeted by scum, the police chased and caught them, but didn't catch them in the gateway vehicle, they caught them in a field near the vehicle, the vehicle had all the tools and their DNA in it, but didn't charge them due not being caught with the vehicle, now why should I waste my time on the police?? Should be able to defend your own property 

[Rhymes with Paris]

Thanks for the well thought out and considered replies.

As Frosty says,a difficult one.

Not that I would have a chance to defend myself or detain any of the criminals nowadays, but if I have understood it properly, if you are capable and fit enough,it's ok to defend yourself and family and property using reasonable force if necessary.

But not ok to pursue fleeing criminals and then assault them as punishment, when any danger has passed, by the criminals fleeing.

I also think about the low life mindset, and it's tendency to falsely accuse others of anything and everything when called to account.

Specifically,if a home owner,or car owner come to that,did subdue and restrain a criminal caught in the act , I could well imagine the tea leaf or vandal squealing like a stuck pig until the police arrive.

And then accuse their intended victim of all sorts, from assault to kidnap/false imprisonment.

I suppose in that case CCTV is your best friend, it's a very good witness.

[Rhymes with Paris]

2 hours ago, 2toyos said:

I strongly believe you should be able to defend what is yours, we have relied on the police here, after our hybrid was targeted by scum, the police chased and caught them, but didn't catch them in the gateway vehicle, they caught them in a field near the vehicle, the vehicle had all the tools and their DNA in it, but didn't charge them due not being caught with the vehicle, now why should I waste my time on the police?? Should be able to defend your own property 

Sorry you were targeted, but if you read through the thread, the police have to refer to the CPS for charging decisions , and I am sure would charge if it were thier decision alone.

So I still think it's worth contacting the police if a crime happens to you, as the CPS might go ahead and charge next time, and even if not,the crims get their collar felt and the incident goes onto their records for future use.

[2toyos]

21 minutes ago, Rhymes with Paris said:

Sorry you were targeted, but if you read through the thread, the police have to refer to the CPS for charging decisions , and I am sure would charge if it were thier decision alone.

So I still think it's worth contacting the police if a crime happens to you, as the CPS might go ahead and charge next time, and even if not,the crims get their collar felt and the incident goes onto their records for future use.

We were contacted by the police to inform us that they weren't charging the 2 people that tried to steal our catalytic converter, and to be vigilant if they tried again, I'm sorry, this country is a JOKE, laughing stock of the world, they've been involved in a police chase, tracked down by dogs, and car has been impounded with all the tools and DNA of the men being arrested, and why should I be burdened with the costs, the inconvenience of some scum bag thinking he can have what I paid for??

[Cyker]

I wonder if you can subpoena their details from the police and take them to the small claims court to recover damages and legal expenses?

Make the law work for you for a change!

I think one of the biggest flaws in our society is we're governed by law but normal people operate on a general moral code that the law doesn't take into account at all, whereas criminals and the government are often very well versed with the law and know how to skirt and abuse it in ways that would baffle us.

Most of us have no idea how to use the law to our advantage. I think how to make the law work for us should be taught in school or something...!

 

[2toyos]

17 minutes ago, Cyker said:

I wonder if you can subpoena their details from the police and take them to the small claims court to recover damages and legal expenses?

Make the law work for you for a change!

I think one of the biggest flaws in our society is we're governed by law but normal people operate on a general moral code that the law doesn't take into account at all, whereas criminals and the government are often very well versed with the law and know how to skirt and abuse it in ways that would baffle us.

Most of us have no idea how to use the law to our advantage. I think how to make the law work for us should be taught in school or something...!

 

Education in this country needs a whole forum for itself, a lot they don't teach and should most definitely, 

 

Small claims will only work with maybe video evidence or solid proof they actually touched it

[Cyker]

See there's the problem; I bet someone well versed in the art of law could make it work, but us ignorant peons wouldn't have a case!

 

[DerekHa]

All I would say to people is the Police on the whole in the UK do a good job. They're not 100% perfect as they come from an imperfect society and all walks of life and the law itself isn't perfect and neither are the Prosecutors.

There have been some awful examples recently of bad apples and they do taint the barrel but I'm sure the good apples far outweigh the bad. I've known and seen bad ones, once declined to work with one who was a regularly too slap happy with the local little s***'s. Unprofessional and made me feel uneasy, he was just abusive when there was no need and I valued my job.

Be careful what you do if you try to detain someone, it can go pear shaped very rapidly! As a member of the public you have very limited powers and little protection! Even officers who have wider powers have found themselves rapidly in a very pear shaped world. Take my advice and use the 999's it's what they're trained for, there for and get paid for. I used the 999's once when I disturbed thiefs trying to take my old Cavailer CDI off my drive and they made off in a stolen Mazda MX6. Took great delight an hour later when one of my colleagues on the night shift called me to say he'd just locked the four up who were responsible.

As Cyker hints at there's that old fangle thing called the ways and means act and I'm sure it's still used to good effect and for the best of reasons by many good officers who know what they're doing.

As to small claims. The strength of evidence required for the small claims courts is lower than that required before the criminal courts. The scales of justice have to be tipped more heavily before a criminal conviction can be reached but in the civil courts (small claims) those scales only have to move slightly in your favour to win a claim. Criminal is "beyond a reasonable doubt", Civil is "on the balance of probability". I used the Civil Courts long ago, before my time in the Police, the otherside threw in the towel just before the hearing and I got paid out what I'd claimed for.

I do feel for you 2toyos it should have ended differently but my personal believe is that you should have requested the alledged offenders details formally from the Police for a Civil proceeding in the small claims court, I doubt you would need video evidence or the offenders banged to rights. The Police have already done the hard work for you. The CPS charging criteria will have caused them to decide they're unlikely to secure a conviction. Years ago the police would charge and let the case run it course if they thought a prosecution was needed. Things change but you can still have your day and watch the little s***'s squirm if you have the desire, you don't need a solicitor just some free legal advise and make your affidavit and fill out the forms and pay a small fee to the court, which you can claim back.

Would agree with your comment about education but that isn't only instilled in the classroom it's more down to family enviroment, respect and parental attitudes.

And at the end this is only my four penny worth or am I prattling again?

[Yugguy1970]

I find the reasonable force thing a little strange as it seems to require you to worry about your burglar's welfare when you've just been woken by them at 3am.

That said, defending yourself and your family and restraining them if you can is probably fine.  Stabbing them to death while they're tied up is probably going a bit far.  🤣

[DerekHa]

3 hours ago, Yugguy1970 said:

I find the reasonable force thing a little strange as it seems to require you to worry about your burglar's welfare when you've just been woken by them at 3am.

That said, defending yourself and your family and restraining them if you can is probably fine.  Stabbing them to death while they're tied up is probably going a bit far.  🤣

You're spot on there Guy! If you're in that unthinkable position you got to know when enough is enough,  don't let the red mist decend and take complete control. 👍

Engage brain and think about yourself and your family your actions could have be life changing.

[Roy124]

My brother in law is also a retired policeman.  His view of how the victims action would be judged would depend on the victim's background. 

For instance one might be an older person fearing for his life might strike a lucky fatal blow. Another might be a fit young man grabbing a golf club or similar and experiencing the red mist. 

Pursuit is a key.  We were permitted to shoot if we were threatened and there was no other way of stopping the person.  We were not permitted to shoot if no threat and they were running away viz Pvt Clegg. 

[DerekHa]

2 minutes ago, Roy124 said:

My brother in law is also a retired policeman.  His view of how the victims action would be judged would depend on the victim's background. 

For instance one might be an older person fearing for his life might strike a lucky fatal blow. Another might be a fit young man grabbing a golf club or similar and experiencing the red mist. 

Pursuit is a key.  We were permitted to shoot if we were threatened and there was no other way of stopping the person.  We were not permitted to shoot if no threat and they were running away viz Pvt Clegg. 

I agree Roy,

Every case would have to be judged individually, whats "reasonable" in one situation may be totally unreasonable in another. I believe it's why the law was drafted in such a manner in the first place and neccessarily vague.

All this talk has reminded me, and have only just summoned up the name from the murky depths of my grey matter, ofthe case of the farmer Tony Martin. He went too far, took a life and paid the price. It was very controversial back then.

[DerekHa]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Martin_(farmer)

May make interesting reading if you have the time and inclination.

[Yugguy1970]

Yes, and very complex.  Should he have chased them?  Maybe not.  Was he a bit unhinged?  Perhaps.  Had he been burgled several times and nothing been done to help him?  Yes.  These were career criminals.

I'm 52 and without trying to sound like the man, but I've boxed and thai boxed and I still workout so I'm quite strong and I could see a situation where if I really hurt someone but not on purpose, just while defending my family, their solicitor would use that against me and try and paint me as a violent person.

Again, not trying to sound like a Daily Mail reader but one thing I really hate is criminals bleating about their rights and using my money to do it.  It sticks in my throat that those wretched paedophile gang rapists from Rochdale were able to use public money to appeal their deportations.  I'm a complete advocate for the death penalty for creatures like that.

[DerekHa]

28 minutes ago, Yugguy1970 said:

Yes, and very complex.  Should he have chased them?  Maybe not.  Was he a bit unhinged?  Perhaps.  Had he been burgled several times and nothing been done to help him?  Yes.  These were career criminals.

I'm 52 and without trying to sound like the man, but I've boxed and thai boxed and I still workout so I'm quite strong and I could see a situation where if I really hurt someone but not on purpose, just while defending my family, their solicitor would use that against me and try and paint me as a violent person.

Again, not trying to sound like a Daily Mail reader but one thing I really hate is criminals bleating about their rights and using my money to do it.  It sticks in my throat that those wretched paedophile gang rapists from Rochdale were able to use public money to appeal their deportations.  I'm a complete advocate for the death penalty for creatures like that.

Your so right about the three offenders being career criminals, people like that have always been around and always will be, unfortunately a fact of life. Tony Martin had been victimised but he didn't act within the law, he'd already had his license revoked for firing at someone scumping, then went off and FOUND a pump action shot gun. His state of mind wasn't reasonable by any means. He paid the price and think he got off lightly in all.

I've never been really physically fit like you Guy, too much of a couch potatoe if I'm honest but I'm lucky as I'm not overwieght. Admire the fact you take the time to keep in shape. I still managed to hold my own when needed but more often than not found talking and staying calm got me the result I needed, it has always been the best tool in a Bobbies kit. By the sound of it you have the sense and right minded enough to not allow yourself to get into one of those bad situations.

I'm no Daily Mail reader either, no offence to anyone who is, and can understand your feelings about that Rochdale case. 20 or 30 years back we had issues locally where I worked, young girls in local authority care going missing for days, getting into and out of taxi's at all hours or having older men as BOYFRIENDS. We knew what was going on and so did the social services careworkers, saw them almost daily taking the missing reports. Attitude of those more senior was always you can't stop them, the girls, which was true. Never did any of the girls come forward and make complaints verbally or in writing. It's a sad world out there for some but hopefully the powers that be have had one to many wake up calls after Rochdale. There's also been cases in Telford and within Birmingham recently.

Those things have always gone on but there's far more awareness now and hopefully the will to take the action needed by the authorities, time will tell.

[Rhymes with Paris]

2 hours ago, DerekHa said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Martin_(farmer)

May make interesting reading if you have the time and inclination.

Yes Derek, I had a read of that, although I remember the case very well, it was front page for a good while.

This was before I had net access, but the prevailing opinion among the great British public at the time, seemed to be one of empathy for Tony Martin.

Again, not a principle in law I know, but if those lads had not been out burgling, then they would not have been shot.

The other side of the coin of course,is if someone has not committed a crime, but is falsely accused of one, or in the wrong place at the wrong time.

So we do need the robust legal system that we have, to do it's best to prosecute the guilty and defend the innocent.

So ok it does seem the wrong way round sometimes, but it's what we've got, and a hell of a lot better than in many other countries.

[DerekHa]

7 minutes ago, Rhymes with Paris said:

Yes Derek, I had a read of that, although I remember the case very well, it was front page for a good while.

This was before I had net access, but the prevailing opinion among the great British public at the time, seemed to be one of empathy for Tony Martin.

Again, not a principle in law I know, but if those lads had not been out burgling, then they would not have been shot.

The other side of the coin of course,is if someone has not committed a crime, but is falsely accused of one, or in the wrong place at the wrong time.

So we do need the robust legal system that we have, to do it's best to prosecute the guilty and defend the innocent.

So ok it does seem the wrong way round sometimes, but it's what we've got, and a hell of a lot better than in many other countries.

We're wayout in front of the rest of the world when it comes to our Police force, thank god! Not perfect I know but it's the best there is despite everything in an imperfect world.

[Hybrid21]

One of my in laws had a very expensive road bike stolen from his flat in Glasgow. Not many of these bikes about and when he saw it advertised on eBay he knew after phoning the seller that it was his.

He contacted the police and told them,  but they said that unless he had proof there was nothing they could do.

He went to the address with a couple of mates and took his bike back  😄

[DerekHa]

I'm sure if the POLICE had bothered to to follow up your in laws suspicions they would have had another arrest on the books and highly likely another successful prosecution before there courts. Knowing how it works behind the scenes it was likely a case of "too much trouble".

Only needed him to give them a statement as to identifying marks and features and the background details and they'd have had their evidence. Did this many times especially with motor vehicles and was always cockahoop getting someone's property back home and locking the the thief up. Of course some had bought a wrong un but that happens sometimes.

Fair play to your relative Iain, hope he made a point of telling the local Bobbies of his success and showing them up. 👍

[Cyker]

The biggest problem with the police is they have been cut to the bone; They need to be paid better so they're less likely to be tempted by corruption and need more people so they can support each other in what is otherwise a very thankless job.

Where I live, almost all the police stations have been closed!! It's no surprise they can't cope and have to prioritise only the really bad crimes, on top of whatever Crime of the Month they're forced to by politicians.

When I moved here, there were still regular patrols, aka The Beat, but I can't even remember the last time I saw a PSCO, never mind an actual police officer, on the street. I think most of the younger generation don't even know that was a thing as they've never seen it!