Noise while idling in neutral

[Jim-p]

Hi all,

Just noticed this evening that I have a noise, coming from the gearbox I think, when the car is sitting in neutral and the clutch pedal is up (depressed). When I press the clutch it goes away. It's like a rubbing noise. Gear shifting appears to be fine.

I hadn't noticed it before and thinking this isn't good. Could it be the release bearing?

136k km on the clock, 1AD-FTV 2.0L diesel 2011 T27.

Having poor luck with it lately 😔

Thanks in advance.

[MrAurisT]

Yes, that sounds like a clutch release bearing, in particular because it goes when you depress the clutch. Unless it is howling, it probably OK for a good while yet.

[Oisin]

12 hours ago, NeilAvensisT said:

Yes, that sounds like a clutch release bearing, in particular because it goes when you depress the clutch. Unless it is howling, it probably OK for a good while yet.

I thought a bad release bearing usually makes noise when the clutch is disengaged?

[Cyker]

BTW because english is stupid, depressed means the same thing as pressed when talking about pushing something in. The opposite in this case is released. I only mentioned this because my brain got confused reading the first paragraph  

The release bearing is always spinning so it could well be the source; Sometimes it's noisier when the clutch is pressed/depressed/pushed in/down as it's being pushed sideways into the pressure plate, but that can also make it quieter as the pressure stops the worn balls from rattling so much.

2011 I think also had dual-mass flywheels so it could also be that as they start to make weird sounds when they are on the way out.

Then again it might just be the cold as it makes everything a bit looser.

[Jim-p]

Thanks @NeilAvensisT, @Oisin and @Cyker, I have been researching this online and I called 2 garages and yes, it is confusing with depressed, pressed, engaged, disengaged etc.

Secondly, opinion is divided on whether it is a release bearing or an input shaft bearing. I called my Toyota dealer and they said it is a release bearing. He said if the whirring noise disappears when the clutch pedal is down (clutch disengaged) and is there when the clutch pedal is out (clutch engaged). He had been a mechanic in the shop for 12 years. He said they would rarely change a flywheel and wouldn't expect it at those kms (136k)

Called an independent mechanic and he said the opposite. If the whirring is there when the clutch pedal is down (clutch disengaged) then it's the release bearing, and if it is there when the clutch pedal is out (clutch engaged) then it's something in the box like an input shaft bearing - which he said "is bad!" Again, he had only seen issues like that in high mileage cars such as taxis etc. not on a 136k.

All the forums online seem to inevitability split into release bearing vs input shaft bearing dialogue.

Tonight, I was listening to it again. It is definitely a whirring noise with no knocks or sqeaks and it is there when the car is warm. I also noticed that the noise will remain almost till the pedal is fully pressed down, which I'm fairly sure is biting point - must confirm that tomorrow. The car shifts fine and there doesn't appear to be any vibration which hopefully means the flywheel is ok. Also, as there is no whirring when the clutch is pedal is pressed in (clutch disengaged), I take it that the pilot bearing is ok. I can't tell if it gets louder or not when to rev the engine as I can't hear it over it but I assume it does.

BTW, I'm the second owner from 48k and it was purchased from a Toyota main dealer who originally sold and carried out all servicing on the car. I have had it serviced by the same Toyota dealership since, the last and major one being at 122k. I must check with the dealer tomorrow to see if they ever changed the gearbox oil. Is there any chance that it may be contributing to the issue?

[MrAurisT]

My money is on the clutch release bearing still (sorry, I meant above when the pedal is pressed down, the noise will go away). Input shaft bearing is possible but unlikely (in my opinion). As I mentioned above, unless the noise is 'howling' its normal wear and tear as the car gets older and the mileage increases. Personally I wouldn't be too concerned at this stage, certainly not worth pulling the box out for.

[APS]

I agree with Neil. Most likely the release bearing. Your mechanic is right, a worn release bearing will be noisy when the pedal is pressed to the floor. However, that is a very worn bearing, soon about to fail completely. A slightly worn and noisy bearing will only be audible while spinning without any significant pressure on it.

[Cyker]

Of the two choice ans assuming it sin't something else, I'd lean more toward the release bearing too.

I'd be surprised if it was the shaft bearing as I can't remember anyone needing to replace one of those on a Toyota until they hit stupidly high miles.

That's the thing with Toyota; If it's not a wearing part, they generally engineer it to last the life of the car, unlike most other manufacturers where it's a bit more pot luck!

[Jim-p]

Thanks all, called Toyota dealer to ask if gearbox oil had ever been changed and he said they never change that. He said the avensis boxes are very solid and he couldn't remember ever having to rebuild or change out. Unlike the Corolla. He looked but couldn't find any recommended service schedule for the gearbox oil, he is going to dig some more on that and come back to me. Unless there was a reason he would be reticent to ever go near changing it and upsetting the box. Thanks again all, the noise is there and we'll have to see how it goes.

[2009joe]

7 minutes ago, Jim-p said:

Thanks all, called Toyota dealer to ask if gearbox oil had ever been changed and he said they never change that. He said the avensis boxes are very solid and he couldn't remember ever having to rebuild or change out. Unlike the Corolla. He looked but couldn't find any recommended service schedule for the gearbox oil, he is going to dig some more on that and come back to me. Unless there was a reason he would be reticent to ever go near changing it and upsetting the box. Thanks again all, the noise is there and we'll have to see how it goes.

By chance this the same oil got it from my Toyota dealer and for a 2014 Toyota avensid 2.0 1adftv 6 speed gearbox. I'm just changing mine as want to look after my car 

 

[Jim-p]

6 hours ago, 2009joe said:

By chance this the same oil got it from my Toyota dealer and for a 2014 Toyota avensid 2.0 1adftv 6 speed gearbox. I'm just changing mine as want to look after my car 

 

Hi @joe2009, I've been looking at your posts and I have the same ethos about my car, i.e., I try to give it whatever it needs, at least mechanically. So I thought about changing the gearbox oil as a preventative maintenance measure. Really because of the whirring noise, I wouldn't have thought about it otherwise. But the Toyota guy basically told me to let well enough alone. He also said there's little opportunity for oil to leak out of those, so levels should never really be an issue. Noise is still bugging me though. My sister has a 2015 T27 with 267k and i checked that this afternoon and it has no noise. I think I will probably take it in somewhere to check it out.

[2009joe]

7 hours ago, Jim-p said:

Hi @joe2009, I've been looking at your posts and I have the same ethos about my car, i.e., I try to give it whatever it needs, at least mechanically. So I thought about changing the gearbox oil as a preventative maintenance measure. Really because of the whirring noise, I wouldn't have thought about it otherwise. But the Toyota guy basically told me to let well enough alone. He also said there's little opportunity for oil to leak out of those, so levels should never really be an issue. Noise is still bugging me though. My sister has a 2015 T27 with 267k and i checked that this afternoon and it has no noise. I think I will probably take it in somewhere to check it out.

that t27 2015 is it the one with the bmw engines as i know toyota done the next face lift and put those 1.6 and 2.0 bmw engines in them 

[APS]

14 hours ago, Jim-p said:

Noise is still bugging me though.

Feel free to share a recording of the noise if you can. Or let me know and I can record one of our cars that's current got a noisy release bearing. 

[Jim-p]

6 hours ago, 2009joe said:

that t27 2015 is it the one with the bmw engines as i know toyota done the next face lift and put those 1.6 and 2.0 bmw engines in them 

It's an early 2015 and although i didn't check, I think she got the last of the D4D as it's not the final face-lift model, e.g., it looks the same as my 2011 with small styling changes like the rear lights etc. It's a Sol as well which it definitely a lot nicer than my terra 😏.

[MrAurisT]

Personally, I don't think any oil is 'good for life', gearbox oil included. I have always changed gearbox oil on every car I have owned especially at the 10 year or plus age range, whatever the mileage is. Maybe a personal thing, but I will be changing mine soon, but I will measure how much comes out and replace the same amount.  One thing though, goes without saying, make sure your filler plug will come loose before opening the drain plug!

[2009joe]

2 hours ago, Jim-p said:

It's an early 2015 and although i didn't check, I think she got the last of the D4D as it's not the final face-lift model, e.g., it looks the same as my 2011 with small styling changes like the rear lights etc. It's a Sol as well which it definitely a lot nicer than my terra 😏.

Aye you are lucky you got one of the last ones.never get those again the poor die hard 2.0 Toyota d4d is gone for good now. I'm glad I got one IL be driving it into the ground my one .was a real good one I got 38k genuine Toyota serviced business EDT one .just need 2 look after it to make it last as long as I can now lol 

[Jim-p]

11 hours ago, APS said:

Feel free to share a recording of the noise if you can. Or let me know and I can record one of our cars that's current got a noisy release bearing. 

Ok I tried to capture it but it's not great. Drowned out by the engine mostly. I'd probably need to jack it up and get underneath it and put the phone next to it. Changing the engine oil this week so will actually have an opportunity to do this and hopefully upload.

 

 

 

 

[APS]

Thanks for that. It's not actually that clear. Was the gearbox/engine warm when you recorded the first two videos?

It sound like (normal?) gearbox noise that you get with a warm gearbox where the oil has thinned out. I will try to listen with some headphones when I can.

[Jim-p]

1 hour ago, APS said:

Thanks for that. It's not actually that clear. Was the gearbox/engine warm when you recorded the first two videos?

It sound like (normal?) gearbox noise that you get with a warm gearbox where the oil has thinned out. I will try to listen with some headphones when I can.

Yeah it's hard to pick it out in the video audio. It's a lot easier to distinguish with the naked ear. The car was warm at the time and I get what you say about the sound and oil thinning out. Because it's very much like the noise that came from box of our old David brown. The water used to get in around the gear lever sticks and it forever ran with milky white frothy gear oil. Never a spanner did it see in all its life but I did think of it when I heard the whirring noise from the car first. But they're not really comparable pieces of equipment; old vs new technology, crude vs refined.

Thanks for listening @APS, I will see if I can get a better recording.

[APS]

Having listened to it again through headphones, it does sound like the input shaft. You can hear it slow down slower than a release bearing would when you press the pedal. So, I don't think that is the release bearing. Is the noise more or less obvious when cold vs hot?

What to do about it? I'm tempted to say 'Turn up the radio'. You could change oil, more to diagnose the state of it than anything. Put some new oil in. Then at least you know it is the right viscosity.  Other than that, I'd monitor it and check if it gets worse. I doubt it's anything that will fail suddenly. If it ever needs addressing, then it is probably cheapest to replace with a different second hand gearbox. 

It seems you have a good relationship with your local Toyota garage. It's worth getting their opinion on it. 

[Jim-p]

So I dropped in to Toyota and they listened to it and took it for a drive and said they wouldn't be worried. It was the foreman who checked it and he said his own avensis is the same. He listened to the turbo too which I was a little worried about. So I suppose I'll just drive it away and keep an eye on things. Thanks for all the advice.