Electric cars a white elephant ?

[Louie]

Hi Guys

Any opinions on electric cars?

I was very keen at one point but am sticking to a hybrid why ?

1) Very expensive to buy

2) Cost of electricity

3) UK still has not got the charging infrastructure sorted

4) I dont really want to be worried about the nearest charging station's proximity i.e. will i get there before i run out of juice

5) Dont want a charging station nailed to my house

6) The material used in this vehicle's manufacture particularly lithium is now been criticised for being environmentally unfriendly in the way 

it is mined.

regards

Louie

[Eddie G]

The Expense, Range and Infrastructure, luckily Toyota are sticking with Hybrid options as well.

[TonyHSD]

Agreed with all points but Evs has always been most suitable cars for town and city use., unfortunately promoted a bit too late, and not only promoted but also forced switch which leads to nothing good. Battery gate is around the corner and Battery electric vehicle might be put off the road before the ice for that exact reason, they are environmental disaster. , I mean the Battery chemistry not the cars themselves. Electric motor is the way of propulsion but the current battery technology it is not. With today announced new fusion power successful experiment the beginning of the end of bev is even closer.  

Anyone who has a hybrid doesn’t need a ev unless really is a must have. 

[Roy124]

Cost aside (not done the maths) we keep looking at our needs and wants and BEV continually fails on one point or other.  If it is the right size the range is too short and vica versa. 

Around us, on a Strategic Network Road, you can tell the commuter from the traveller.  The Commuter will be travelling at 60/70 with no regard for economy.  The traveller will be in lane 1, where sensible hybrid drivers are, and content to cruise with the trucks. 

[Gray86]

I’d prefer an EV, much nicer to drive, better tech (pre-conditioning), faster. . .  Most people could manage fine with a home charger for 95% of the time, it’s only when you do massive mileage in a day that pushes you into the terrible public charging infrastructure. The reason I don’t own one is the cost and the fast evolving tech - like buying a laptop in 1998. 
 

the only EV that works for long distance is Tesla as the superchargers are well placed on the motorway network (UK and Europe), they charge quickly,  just plug & go + they are reliable. 
 

tesla cars are a bit marmite on the styling, but are superb to drive. I borrowed a friends Model 3 Long Range (dual motor) in the summer for 10 days - it was a hoot to drive, stupid quick and handled great. Charged up overnight on a 3pin plug by my driveway (takes a while on that 3.6kw) was cheap too. The one pedal driving is so intuitive, and the overall smoothness & performance made my Corolla feel quite unrefined and archaic by comparison. 
 

I had a go in a Model 3 Performance last week which was just mental quick. It struggled for traction on cold tarmac. 0-60 in around 3.5 seconds. 

[Cyker]

I wouldn't say they are a white elephant, but they have a long way to go.

Electric motors are the best motor we have - They can be scaled to any size, tuned to any load or speed use case, are incredibly energy efficient and have a far superior power to weight ratio of anything.

The problem is the same problem they had hundreds of years ago - Batteries.

When they crack that, EVs will quickly overtake everything, but at the moment it's a huge disadvantage. The amount of energy existing Battery tech can hold is pitiful compared to chemical fuels. The fact that a car doing 20mpg can still out-distance the most efficient EV easily, probably by at least twice the distance, just shows how rubbish existing electrical storage tech is.

If they could even double Battery energy density, that would make a big difference - Still wouldn't be near chemical fuels, which are more like 10 times more energy dense, but with the high efficiency of the electric motor they'd be able to at least rival the lower ranges of the ICE world.

I just wish they weren't pushing it so hard.

I prefer diversity in drivetrains as they all have their pros and cons. It's especially problematic that they are going to stop diesel trucks in the mid-future despite having no realistic alternative. No EV or hydrogen truck is going to have anywhere near the long distance heavy hauling ability of a diesel truck, and given how awful overnight facilities are for trampers (Truckers that sleep in their trucks) I can't see them being workable anytime soon. They will need to have overnight electric hookups on not just service stations but laybys, industrial estates etc., all the places they stop overnight, and I don't see that happening given how poor basic trucker facilities are at the moment due to little to no investment for decades.

 

[Strangely Brown]

While walking from the car to the supermarket yesterday I passed the 4 charging stations that they have. All 4 were in use and it made me wonder...

If I had an electrickery car and had turned up wanting or expecting to be able to charge up, just how long would I have to wait?

The owners could be in the supermarket doing a full weekly shop. They could then pop into the coffee shop for some refreshment and may even decide to have a look in the adjacent M&S. It could easily be a couple of hours, plus my own charge time.

I have better things to do with my life than spend it waiting for chargers to become free.

 

[Cyker]

Yeah, this is why I think they should focus on putting a charge point on every single parking bay in major retail parks, so they're not just for EVs and are plentiful - The best time to charge is while doing a big shop.

The current path, with these idiotic charging hubs where you're basically trapped there for the duration of your charge with nothing to do other than drink expensive coffee if you're lucky, is virtually the worst thing they could be doing. It just reinforces how much a waste of time it is charging an EV, and as the hubs are almost all rapid chargers it'll also reduce the life and capacity of the Battery quicker than the fast chargers supermarkets tend to use.

 

[Yugguy1970]

They absolutely have their use cases but are not the blunt instrument the government seems to think.

Don't mandate a technology, mandate a Co2 reduction and see what the makers can dk.

[Strangely Brown]

While it's a nice idea, in theory, to have charging points in every space in the car-park it rapidly becomes a big problem.

If even 20 of the spaces are in use by cars charging at 50kWh then you have a load of 1 megawatt. Does the retailer really want the overhead of providing that infrastructure?

Scale that up as adoption of electric cars increases.

Not everyone has the ability to charge at home. I don't, and I am not going to string cables across the pavement even assuming I can get the space directly outside.

[Louie]

Hi Guys 

Well what an amazing response.

I more or less agree with  all of the comments. I was originally seduced by the Tesla but the more i read how Musk achieves his manufacturing goals plus the silly breakdowns involving the software and the car having a mind of its own my enthusiasm began to wane. My daughter has been learning to drive in a Tesla and is about to take her test in one and constantly raves about them . 

My opinion is that EV's are about to hit a rough patch for reasons i have already mentioned and i think manufacturers  joined the race to outdo Musk which is a really bad idea  and will all end in tears. Anyway there is new tech on the way which will overtake the current EV concept time will tell.

Drive safe Guys 

 

[forkingabout]

There's a Tesla charging station near me with 6 X superchargers, it's comical sometimes as the Tesla's queue up to get on a charger 🤣

[Cyker]

26 minutes ago, Strangely Brown said:

While it's a nice idea, in theory, to have charging points in every space in the car-park it rapidly becomes a big problem.

If even 20 of the spaces are in use by cars charging at 50kWh then you have a load of 1 megawatt. Does the retailer really want the overhead of providing that infrastructure?

Scale that up as adoption of electric cars increases.

Not everyone has the ability to charge at home. I don't, and I am not going to string cables across the pavement even assuming I can get the space directly outside.

No, I don't think any retailer could afford the infrastructure upgrades required for that, nevermind the cost of commissioning all those chargers, but that's why the government should be funnelling money towards that instead of these idiotic charging hubs.

Your point about the sheer power these sites will be pulling is extremely valid and one I feel the powers that be have been ignoring.

Like, chargers are heading to 500kW and we're not even talking about 800v chargers yet - A bunch of those could easily gobble up the capacity of an entire substation!

In fact, Services that are near electricity pylons have literally had substations installed to directly feed their charging bays with something like a 20kV supply instead of stepping down to 240v because they gobble up so much power.

The fact that charging sites will be gobbling up several megawatts of power is something they will just have to deal with as it is a direct and inevitable consequence of going EV.

Even just a street - If everyone in said street had a driveway and a 7kW charger and were all charging overnight we would easily be talking over a megawatt, and that's just one street! That is the future the Grid needs to prepare for, and if they can't even deal with that with a single supermarket carpark this EV future is going to be very rocky...

I think it would be much easier to upgrade the infrastructure to single communal sites, like retail parks, than it would be to upgrade it for every street with driveways!

 

30 minutes ago, Yugguy1970 said:

They absolutely have their use cases but are not the blunt instrument the government seems to think.

Don't mandate a technology, mandate a Co2 reduction and see what the makers can dk.

I think they got burned from promoting diesel as low-co2 eco technology  

But I do think technology needs to stand on its own merit - Diesel took off because it was genuinely superior to petrol for everything people normally use it for and was improving in leaps and bounds. It's just a shame that nobody thought to improve the emissions side significantly (Specifically NOx and particulates, which everyrone had been ignoring up 'til then...) until it was too late.

EVs have not had anywhere near that success because they're not superior to anything at the moment. They are bigger, heavier, much more expensive, but have less utility and are no longer significantly cheaper to run unless you can charge at home. It's great that they have zero local emissions, but that isn't going to help it make the 300 mile round trip to my brother's house and back or fit between a bus or lorry and rows of parked cars on a narrow road!

 

[TonyHSD]

One funny story. 
in Bedford town centre there is a council car park next to the river and a hotel and cinema. The car park is only for evs , but there is no sign electric cars only, it is a joke. Half of spaces are designed for taxi , the rest or most of them for disabled and very few for standard evs, you also need to pay to enter and stay plus you need to make sure that your car is not only an ev but also parked at dedicated bay, only taxi or only disabled or normal evs must be matched. And the wardens are giving tickets like candy on a village day. Thankfully I was in my car when they came and asked me to go, another man disabled but not with ev had its ticket done. 

[Hornet3D]

I think that EVs still have a way to go, I like the idea but for me the cost of a new EV is more than I can afford and even if I could I would still worry about the range.  I would be particularly concerned about the limited range when the temperature drops toward freezing and beyond.   The increase in electricity costs and the proposed tax on EVs in the years to come also take a way what I would regard as benefits.  The think EVs will make it but by the time they do I will have hung up my driving keys.

[Wooster]

12 hours ago, Strangely Brown said:

Not everyone has the ability to charge at home.

Heard on the radio yesterday (Radio 4) that 40% of UK homes do not have off-street parking. Someone has decided the UK needs 300,000 public charging points, we have 30,000 at the moment and are installing 600 a month.  So the job will be completed in 2059...

[TonyHSD]

Indeed. My girlfriend has ioniq electric since 2021 , that car that looks like Prius and many does not like or talk about it. In fact it is the most efficient electric car to date and very similar to Prius and Corolla. In ideal circumstances she may get around 190-200 miles from 38kw/h Battery but now the range shows different numbers 160miles , however if I take this car for my work which is minimum 120miles drive and max around 300 miles a night I may not be able to complete my shift even with one stop for charging, it will require two stops. The range will plummet from 200 miles summer time city drive to 100 miles now for sure. My Auris hybrid lost only 100 miles of its 525 miles average summer range. 
Also having an electric car without home charger equals to owning a smartphone with no home charger and only relayed on cafes and airports charge points, would you do that? 🔋🚫👎

[Strangely Brown]

15 hours ago, Eddie G said:

The Expense, Range and Infrastructure, luckily Toyota are sticking with Hybrid options as well.

Only 40%?

I would estimate it to be far higher than that. You only have to look at how many cars are parked on-street to see the mismatch.

Anyway, the number of charging points is not the blocker to EV adoption for me; it is quite simply charge time.

Example...
Tesco charging offers 3 rates:
7kW @ 28p/kWh, 22kW @ 40p/kWh and 50kW @ 50p/kWh

The average EV does approx 3miles/kWh. So, my maths says that to top up with 100 miles of range while doing your shopping it would take:
4hr46m, 1h31m and 40m respectively.

Given that I can drive into the petrol station and buy 500miles of range in approx 5mins, or less... 

... also my car is currently costing approx 14p/mile running on E5 (from Tesco). Those EV charge rates work out to 9p, 13p and 17p per mile.

Just why? I'm really not seeing the carrot here.

[if the figures are wrong please correct me]

ETA: That's odd. The wrong post is quoted. It was actually a reply to Wooster.

[Hornet3D]

18 minutes ago, Wooster said:

Heard on the radio yesterday (Radio 4) that 40% of UK homes do not have off-street parking. Someone has decided the UK needs 300,000 public charging points, we have 30,000 at the moment and are installing 600 a month.  So the job will be completed in 2059...

There is also the problem that many suspect the present electricity grid can support that number of charging points.  It also has implications on the security of the UK as the existing electricity is under resourced.  It was only a few weeks ago that the industry was saying that there could be power outages of up to 4 hours at a time if there winter was particularly cold and that is just with the existing chargers.

[Hornet3D]

I am aware of one Tesla owner who lives by my in-laws who is on an end terrace where the road ends before the line of houses and none of the houses have drive ways.  To charge he needs to run a very long charging lead along the path from his house to the car.  I see to problems with this, one the potential it has for someone tripping over this, particularly in the dark and also the potential to have this very expensive cable stolen

[Mojo1010]

Not a white elephant, for the majority the cost and some holiday travel long distances doesn't work out. There were a small group that worked out well, namely driving instructors who have a drive to install a home charger. Previously had EV grant, 500 towards home charger + 5p 4 hrs electric tariff. These incentives are all gone, though only ok if one can charge at home still. Some people had free charger at work, heard a person got 3 years free, so it was nice for that person.

Electric cars have that quietness and power that I look for. Though for the most part range isn't a problem, it will be when I do a week long trip in rural areas. 

Don't have a drive, so no go for me. Recently lamp post charge points have been installed in my area. Like 1 charge point per road around me, @42p kWh. So it doesn't stack up right now with no incentives. 

[Geoff W]

15 hours ago, TonyHSD said:

Agreed with all points but Evs has always been most suitable cars for town and city use., unfortunately promoted a bit too late, and not only promoted but also forced switch which leads to nothing good. Battery gate is around the corner and battery electric vehicle might be put off the road before the ice for that exact reason, they are environmental disaster. , I mean the battery chemistry not the cars themselves. Electric motor is the way of propulsion but the current battery technology it is not. With today announced new fusion power successful experiment the beginning of the end of bev is even closer.  

Anyone who has a hybrid doesn’t need a ev unless really is a must have. 

 

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[APS]

16 hours ago, Louie said:

Any opinions on electric cars?

White elephant? Nope. Electric cars are absolutely part of our future. How we store the electric energy is more uncertain. Batteries are not ideal, but as with any technology, we will make progress and improve it over time. Fuel cells are also interesting and removes some of the drawbacks of batteries, but adds some different ones. Again, we will improve it. In the end we will end up with a mix in the future.

Infrastructure will also come over time. Interesting you say you don't want a charger 'nailed' to your house. How is that different from say a TV aerial, phone line, gas meter, satellite dish, garden hose...?

Combustion engines running on synthetic fuels or hydrogen will also be around, but more for the enthusiasts (ce'st moi - guilty as charged 🙂 )

 

[Kental]

Over the last 7 years we have gone the wrong way. In 2015 we bought a full EV (Zoe). In 2017 a plug in Hybrid (Niro) and currently we have 2 standard hybrids (Yaris and Corolla). The government bizarrely incentivise  company users to run plug in cars, but not private buyers.  Our Zoe had a 5k discount and the Niro a 2.5k discount, without those the cost disparity is huge.

Not only do we have off road parking, but also a government funded home charger so really we should encouraged to plug in, but the government clearly disagrees.

[Louie]

Hi Guys

I have to disagree with TOC Supporter in that you cannot possibly compare the installation of a charging point into your abode with a TV aerial etc.

First of all the majority of these items are already in place so there is a significant cost issue to consider and the brief disruption to your electricity supply network which will not be  insignificant unless you are planning to plug you charger into a three pin socket which  I doubt.

Last but not least the siting of the charging point is important for access. Mine would be a tad inconvenient as i would have to step over the cable to gain access to the front door unless I move the distribution unit and all associated wiring from it current location, so additional cost here.

Power to your right foot !