Electric cars a white elephant ?

[Bper]

Battery issues to one side the infrastructure for this UK wide will not happen. Cost, and logistics along with national grid current capabilities will prevent this from happening. 

 

[bigblock]

If you have a home charger and will only use the home charger then they are fine. Travel long distance and need to charge on route then it's a nightmare. The infrastucture is not fit for purpose right now. I can't ever see it getting better anytime soon. It will get worse as more ev's take to the roads. A perfect storm as they say.

[50p]

The thoughts of 'how to pay' concern me. There are so many different companies supplying these charge points and they all seem to have their own app.

[Cyker]

That's one of the parts that I dislike, i.e. that you have to carefully plan and factor in charging as part of your journey, rather than the more care free - oh we're down to a quarter tank and clearly won't make it without more fuel oh there's a petrol station let's get some fuel - way of thinking.

I only want to ever have to stop on journeys that are so long I actually have to stop because I'm busting for a pee or my stomach is about to implode. The current range of EVs is far too short of that and it would just annoy me, wasting all that time that could be spent being at my destination.

 

5 minutes ago, 50p said:

The thoughts of 'how to pay' concern me. There are so many different companies supplying these charge points and they all seem to have their own app.

This is starting to get better as there's legislation mandating that they have to accept contactless cards for payment, but the main problem remaining there is you effectively get punished with a much higher rate by several of the charging companies, and IMHO that needs to be banned.

They can have a loyalty chip or something that lets you earn points, but this multi-tier charging is just a disgusting gouge to try and force you to pay an annual subscription to all the different companies and to install yet another stupid app on your phone. (Which is also ludicrous - There is no need for this, it should just be a website login at the most!)

They also need to publish their prices in a more easy to see manner - A lot of them don't even tell you until you're charging, and most people seem to rely on third parties like ZapMap or ABetterRoutePlanner and they are not always accurate.

It's just amazing how backwards charging is in some ways compared to using a petrol pump.

[Strangely Brown]

4 hours ago, Bper said:

Battery issues to one side the infrastructure for this UK wide will not happen. Cost, and logistics along with national grid current capabilities will prevent this from happening. 

 

If someone doesn't get their finger out soon the grid will be taking a back seat to the lack of generating capacity.
R4 had a story the other day that said Wind Power Renewables were producing under 10% of their capacity because ... can you guess? ... it's not windy enough.

[Bper]

16 minutes ago, Strangely Brown said:

If someone doesn't get their finger out soon the grid will be taking a back seat to the lack of generating capacity.
R4 had a story the other day that said Wind Power Renewables were producing under 10% of their capacity because ... can you guess? ... it's not windy enough.

The only thing that is windy is the government. Being first at everything is an obsession with politicians. If it continues the way it is going no one will be able to afford energy let alone charge an EV.🤬

 

[Rhymes with Paris]

There are a couple of charging points on the Moorland massive, McDonald's site.

While waiting, you have a choice of consuming McDonald's delightful coffee, burgers, and have a nice day ambiance, while browsing latest posts on TOC.

Taking in a walking tour of the area, including the festive light displays on nearby houses.

Or given notice, I could conduct a personally guided tour of the area, taking in the high crime areas,fly tipping hotspots, burning tyre Christmas fires, and local wildlife, featuring grunting, incoherent, drunken thugs engaging in the traditional ritual of fighting in pub car parks.

No charge for this of course, for TOC members, but please remember to bring your own safety gear.

 

[AndrueC]

I'm not sure that massive charging capacity is a problem. Stop thinking of charging the way you think of filling up with fuel. With fuel we drive until we're nearly out and then fill up. Instead EV owners just need to get into the habit of charging the vehicle every time they get out of it (if they can).

That would mean most EVs would never need anything other than a ten minute top-up. That would significantly reduce the overall demand for a single location. For a shopping centre carpark it would mean that only a small proportion of vehicles  would be charging at a time.

The only time range would be an issue is on the occasional long run eg; when going on holiday. But most vehicles rarely drive more than ten or twenty miles in a single trip and that doesn't use more electricity.

[Strangely Brown]

26 minutes ago, AndrueC said:

I'm not sure that massive charging capacity is a problem. Stop thinking of charging the way you think of filling up with fuel. With fuel we drive until we're nearly out and then fill up. Instead EV owners just need to get into the habit of charging the vehicle every time they get out of it (if they can).

That would mean most EVs would never need anything other than a ten minute top-up. That would significantly reduce the overall demand for a single location. For a shopping centre carpark it would mean that only a small proportion of vehicles  would be charging at a time.

The only time range would be an issue is on the occasional long run eg; when going on holiday. But most vehicles rarely drive more than ten or twenty miles in a single trip and that doesn't use more electricity.

That would require that charging infrastructure is ubiquitous and universally compatible to the point that it is available anywhere and everywhere you may park your BEV.

Never gonna happen.

[Derek.w]

All trips in electric cars use more electric in colder weather look at this info from Citroen

Electric range-
Electric range, 20C: 217 miles
Electric range, 10C: 194 miles
Electric range, 0C: 175 miles
Electric range, -10C: 141 miles
This is a problem on all cars and manufactures some Battery packs are even fitted with a heater for the Battery just to lessen the effect.

 

 

[dannyboy413]

5 minutes ago, Derek.w said:

some battery packs are even fitted with a heater for the battery just to lessen the effect.

 

 

It's things like that that amuse me. Where does the power come from for the Battery heater?

[Derek.w]

The problem with charging away from home 

Compatable charger for car then a app with money on it for the network you are going to use.

Then when you pull into a car park all electric chargers are in use and you no idea how long before one is vacant.

Then wen you find one its NOT WORKING so off you go again to your third car park charger.

Thats a lot of time you wasted some drivers wished they stayed with petrol/Desel motors.

[Derek.w]

David Battery pack heater uses some of the Battery own energy but you already know that.

[TonyHSD]

14 hours ago, AndrueC said:

I'm not sure that massive charging capacity is a problem. Stop thinking of charging the way you think of filling up with fuel. With fuel we drive until we're nearly out and then fill up. Instead EV owners just need to get into the habit of charging the vehicle every time they get out of it (if they can).

That would mean most EVs would never need anything other than a ten minute top-up. That would significantly reduce the overall demand for a single location. For a shopping centre carpark it would mean that only a small proportion of vehicles  would be charging at a time.

The only time range would be an issue is on the occasional long run eg; when going on holiday. But most vehicles rarely drive more than ten or twenty miles in a single trip and that doesn't use more electricity.

Andrue,

this is a big burden to the car owner/driver.
I can see my gf stress herself out already with her 20-30 miles daily commute and use of public network for charging (twice a week).
The only way to charge every so often is if the public parking spaces have wireless change and the cars can accept that, perhaps it will happen in the near future. 
Every time an ev driver goes somewhere has to think about the car and how to get it plugged in. There are charges but it’s not only one electric car but many now and everyone needs to recharge., these numbers are growing up by the day.  At the pump you stop, fill up and go, at the plug it’s very different story. 
From personal experience I would say the ev should match or get close to the ice cars in terms of energy recharge, storage and use. Until then having no home charger it will be an issue. Add the fact that these cars loose they range in extreme weather too hot or too cold like now and you can see how all Battery electric cars are still miles behind the ice cars in terms of usability.  Until better Battery technology is found Toyota hybrids may make the most sense, as they drive and feel as bev but only use small amount of fuel. 👍
 

[Yugguy1970]

Driving out of Cov down the A428 yesterday I saw a couple of public chargers, set in a layby that was only big enough for one car 😆

[Cyker]

18 hours ago, AndrueC said:

I'm not sure that massive charging capacity is a problem. Stop thinking of charging the way you think of filling up with fuel. With fuel we drive until we're nearly out and then fill up. Instead EV owners just need to get into the habit of charging the vehicle every time they get out of it (if they can).

That would mean most EVs would never need anything other than a ten minute top-up. That would significantly reduce the overall demand for a single location. For a shopping centre carpark it would mean that only a small proportion of vehicles  would be charging at a time.

The only time range would be an issue is on the occasional long run eg; when going on holiday. But most vehicles rarely drive more than ten or twenty miles in a single trip and that doesn't use more electricity.

If, by "massive charging capacity", you mean higher speed chargers (e.g. 300+kW) are not essential then I tend to agree, but if you mean mass deployment of chargers is not essential then I totally disagree. Even from the rest of what you say, the only way that EV users could charge their vehicle every time they get out is if chargers were practically everywhere people would go, which is why I'm always saying the best place to start would be mass deployment in supermarkets and retail park car parks, and not dedicated charging hubs in the middle of nowhere...

The best ownership experience with an EV right now is a) If you can charge at home AND  b) Your 90+% use case is well within half the Battery range; This has been the case from day one, and will not change until chargers are practically everywhere.

 

 

[AndrueC]

Oh for that scenario yes. It would need EV chargers to be available pretty much anywhere that vehicles stop (other than traffic lights, lol). But that's easier to do than trying to provide megawatts of power to those locations.

All you need to meet my scenario is to install a power socket on every bay. That's not at all difficult and given economies of scale probably not all that expensive even though the sockets have to be 'smart'.

If it were me I'd make charging free for the first ten minutes (paid for out of taxation) then chargeable after that. It would encourage people to use lots of smaller top-ups whilst giving a bit of a revenue stream to the car park owner for those cars using it for more than just a top-up.

[Wooster]

19 hours ago, Derek.w said:

Electric range, 20C: 217 miles ......
Electric range, -10C: 141 miles

Should we assume this is just because the Battery is less efficient at lower temperatures? If so, how much is the range (further) reduced when the driver puts the cabin heater on?

[Cyker]

Yeah I think that's not a bad idea, although if we're talking <30kW chargers I'd make it 30 mins as I don't think 10 mins will give much useful charge on those! But that's the sort of fine-tuning detail to be addressed later.

However, I feel it is an inevitability that almost the whole grid will need to be upgraded to multi-megawatt capacities to support an EV future.

People don't realize how much energy is in a litre of petrol, but that is the sort of magnitude of power that we'll migrating to the grid... and it's a lot!!!

[TonyHSD]

32 minutes ago, Wooster said:

Should we assume this is just because the battery is less efficient at lower temperatures? If so, how much is the range (further) reduced when the driver puts the cabin heater on?

Let’s assume this is the estimated range with heater ON, however in real world it won’t be even that but way short. Because once we start driving there are more variables that will come into play a role and will reduce the range even further. Heavy wind, heavy rain or snow, low pressure in the tyres, extra passengers or extra luggage, towing, omg this is killing the range more than 60%, obviously those are also variables in all other types of propulsion, however they does not affect range as much as with the Battery electric cars. 

[TonyHSD]

“The best ownership experience with an EV right now is a) If you can charge at home AND  b) Your 90+% use case is well within half the Battery range; This has been the case from day one, and will not change until chargers are practically everywhere “ 

I like that, well said 👍

[Louie]

Hi Guys

After the comprehensive response to my post I am definitely sticking with a Toyota hybrid for the foreseeable  future.

The whole EV concept to me has not been thought out by the manufacturers. As already mentioned the charging station infrastructure  is pretty now crazy when compared to standard filling stations. Why well when did you last visit a filling station and find that you have to wait for up to one hour or longer to get your car topped up.  When did you last discover that the pump nozzle does not fit your car.  When did you last arrive at a petrol station just to discover that there was no available pump that worked.

All manufacturers lie about the vehicle specs e.g. car range on full Battery charge etc. So far all the EV's i have test driven the salesman has admitted that the the vehicle falls short by anything up to 50 miles for max range.  All this depends on a number of factors e.g. your speed, AC usage, entertainment system etc something the manufacturers have conveniently forgotten.

As already mentioned if you have an EV, a home charging station and travel moderate distances say locally then the EV is for you. 

This forum has me married to the Toyota brand simply because of the invaluable advice and assistance i get from members keep it up guys.

Hope Santa brings you guys something nice.

[Spo2]

9 minutes ago, TonyHSD said:

“The best ownership experience with an EV right now is a) If you can charge at home AND  b) Your 90+% use case is well within half the battery range; This has been the case from day one, and will not change until chargers are practically everywhere “ 

I like that, well said 👍

Agree-think I won't touch EV until it gives 350 miles range in real world on one charge. 

[Strangely Brown]

1 hour ago, AndrueC said:

Oh for that scenario yes. It would need EV chargers to be available pretty much anywhere that vehicles stop (other than traffic lights, lol). But that's easier to do than trying to provide megawatts of power to those locations.

All you need to meet my scenario is to install a power socket on every bay. That's not at all difficult and given economies of scale probably not all that expensive even though the sockets have to be 'smart'.

If it were me I'd make charging free for the first ten minutes (paid for out of taxation) then chargeable after that. It would encourage people to use lots of smaller top-ups whilst giving a bit of a revenue stream to the car park owner for those cars using it for more than just a top-up.

If we assume 22kW charging rather than the 7kW which would be more likely...

10 minutes at 22kW is a little over 3kW - assuming the car accepts that charge rate. With the average BEV returning approx 3miles per kWh that's about 9 miles. Not a particularly meaningful amount and probably even worse in winter conditions.

Oh, and 50 of those along a street would still require over 1MW of supply.

It ain't gonna happen.

Also, parking bays in car-parks or marked bays in streets are not the only places that people park. There are myriad places where it would be exceptionally difficult, if not impossible, to provide a charge point.

I have no doubt that the inexorable push towards BEVs will continue but it is never going to work for everyone driving BEVs until such time as the "refuelling" is brought to a par with petrol/diesel.

Yes, fossil fuelled ICE will disappear. I am yet to be convinced that BEVs are the replacement.

And let's not even start on commercial applications...

[TonyHSD]

16 minutes ago, Strangely Brown said:

If we assume 22kW charging rather than the 7kW which would be more likely...

10 minutes at 22kW is a little over 3kW - assuming the car accepts that charge rate. With the average BEV returning approx 3miles per kWh that's about 9 miles. Not a particularly meaningful amount and probably even worse in winter conditions.

Oh, and 50 of those along a street would still require over 1MW of supply.

It ain't gonna happen.

Also, parking bays in car-parks or marked bays in streets are not the only places that people park. There are myriad places where it would be exceptionally difficult, if not impossible, to provide a charge point.

I have no doubt that the inexorable push towards BEVs will continue but it is never going to work for everyone driving BEVs until such time as the "refuelling" is brought to a par with petrol/diesel.

Yes, fossil fuelled ICE will disappear. I am yet to be convinced that BEVs are the replacement.

And let's not even start on commercial applications...

Agreed 👌