Batteries

[George22]

Hi,  I normally change my car every 3 years and am thinking about keeping this one.

I have a Dynamic Premium RAV4 Plug-in Hybrid, has anyone been given any info on the guarantee or lifetime of both the Hybrid and the PHEV batteries ?

Thanks and Merry Christmas everyone.

[nlee]

The hybrid Battery warranty is supposed to be up to 15 years if you have the car serviced with Toyota at the required service interval.

https://www.toyota.co.uk/owners/toyota-warranty

All EV batteries will lose range over time but should be good for at least 10 years with normal use. Toyota obviously have confidence in the Battery to offer 15 years.

[Roy124]

Not far in this forum you will see the 12v Battery quoted as 5 yrs and HV as 15 if you have an annual health check 

[George22]

Thanks everyone.

 

[ernieb]

Toyota also, I understand, reserve some of the traction Battery top end capacity to allow for the batteries degradation with time and charging. My assumption has been that the ‘extra’ capacity would be released via some software algorithm. 

[Cyker]

That's certainly true of EVs and maybe to PHEVs, but in HEVs it's purely to extend the life of the Battery.

My Mk4 only has a 700Wh Battery (!) and tends to only use the middle part of that, so maybe 300Wh, yet it gets me into the 70-80mpgs (Well, not right now... I'm waiting for the warmer weather to return!!) which is mad if you think about it!

It's because the Battery is mainly there to give the engine somewhere to dump extra energy output that would otherwise be wasted, so it doesn't take much as it turns out!

 

[NASY]

George, if you do keep it the combustion engine will be hardly used if you're a regular plugger in'er and the brakes hardly get used plus 10 year warranty cover makes it as good a long term prospect as I can think of.

[George22]

26 minutes ago, NASY said:

George, if you do keep it the combustion engine will be hardly used if you're a regular plugger in'er and the brakes hardly get used plus 10 year warranty cover makes it as good a long term prospect as I can think of.

Hi, Thanks, yes I’m retired and can do less than 50 miles a week so not much petrol getting used, unless I’m visiting my granddaughter in London from Devon.
 

So on the whole I’m pleased with this one. Would like a fully electric, maybe a BZ4X but not enough range for me at the moment as need around 500 miles, maybe in a few years time when the technology improves. 

[HSDish]

Do You think there will be (as to come) any solutions where You can "upgrade/swap" the traction Battery in Your present car to a bigger/more efficent one?

Maybe to hard to adapt a new bigger Battery to an older car, technically?

Maybe to hard to make it cooperate with the rest of the car ?

Would be nice if You want to keep Yor car, though

[philip42h]

8 minutes ago, HSDish said:

Do You think there will be (as to come) any solutions where You can "upgrade/swap" the traction battery in Your present car to a bigger/more efficent one?

Maybe to hard to adapt a new bigger battery to an older car, technically?

Maybe to hard to make it cooperate with the rest of the car ?

Would be nice if You want to keep Yor car, though

In a word - 'no' - or at least the chances are vanishingly small ...

Imagine that in five years time the technology exists to build a more efficient powerful Battery in the same space / weight. Manufacturers would be wanting to sell you a whole new car rather than just a Battery. And our wonderful hybrids will be bordering obsolete in the push towards full EVs ...

[Flatcoat]

2 hours ago, philip42h said:

In a word - 'no' - or at least the chances are vanishingly small ...

Imagine that in five years time the technology exists to build a more efficient powerful battery in the same space / weight. Manufacturers would be wanting to sell you a whole new car rather than just a battery. And our wonderful hybrids will be bordering obsolete in the push towards full EVs ...

In 5 years the rose tinted glasses will be well and truly slipping from those who are currently blinded by the BEV one size fits all solution. Yes, hybrids are possibly a time limited solution but not if development and use of clean synthetic fuel is encouraged. 

[NASY]

Adrian, have to agree that BEV may well become a Betamax story fairly quickly given the basic science and how that hardly fits with our human preferences.

 

[Cyker]

It depends whether the right to repair laws stop manufacturers locking the batteries; A cottage industry of aftermarket Battery upgrades could easily form; There are already upgraded batteries available for the various generations of Prius and I've seen some that can convert the Prius into a semi-PHEV!

 

[Gray86]

On 12/20/2022 at 6:09 PM, George22 said:

Hi, Thanks, yes I’m retired and can do less than 50 miles a week so not much petrol getting used, unless I’m visiting my granddaughter in London from Devon.
 

So on the whole I’m pleased with this one. Would like a fully electric, maybe a BZ4X but not enough range for me at the moment as need around 500 miles, maybe in a few years time when the technology improves. 

Out of interest, why do you need 500miles of range? 
 

I ask, as an EV with 500 mile range is going to need a 130kwh Battery pack, which will be a) expensive b) take a very long time to charge up. I recon that’s around 18hrs on a home wall box (7kwh) and double that on a 3 pin plug. 

[Cyker]

I'm guessing that London-Devon round trip he mentions...

I have a minimum 300-real-miles requirement for similar reasons; Means I can visit relatives and friends, even in winter, without having to risk needing to charge for the return journey and being able to drive around once I get there without having to worry about not having enough to get home.

 

[NASY]

That's exactly the problem, why do you need 500 miles of charge, almost all the time no-one does, however occasionally many of us do. A regular 50 or so miles of range with the option to get 500 miles when required would be ideal - PHEV does that. 

[Cyker]

Well the asinine argument EVangelists make for why current EV range is fine, is that most people only drive 30-40 miles most of the time, and that is absolutely true.

This is why EVs make good 2nd cars, for people that can afford that.

However, for people like me, and I suspect the majority of people, that can't afford to buy, run and insure 2 cars, we need a car that is useful for all our usecases, not just some of them.

The counter argument was to rent a car for those journeys, but if I had to rent a car every time I wanted to visit my bro or my friends or even to just go for a random drive, that would clearly show the car is not fit for purpose, i.e. getting me from A to B, so why even have it?

[George22]

1 hour ago, Gray86 said:

Out of interest, why do you need 500miles of range? 
 

I ask, as an EV with 500 mile range is going to need a 130kwh battery pack, which will be a) expensive b) take a very long time to charge up. I recon that’s around 18hrs on a home wall box (7kwh) and double that on a 3 pin plug. 

Hi, Driving to London is a round trip of 400 miles, I like to have around 75-100 miles left so I can refill at my leisure when I return.
 

Also bypassing any range anxiety whether petrol or fully electric vehicle. 

I’m totally happy with the PHEV I have now though, I’m just thinking 5-10 years down the line when Battery technology may have improved range and speed of charge. 
 

Have a Merry Christmas everyone. 

[Flatcoat]

1 hour ago, George22 said:

Hi, Driving to London is a round trip of 400 miles, I like to have around 75-100 miles left so I can refill at my leisure when I return.
 

Also bypassing any range anxiety whether petrol or fully electric vehicle. 

I’m totally happy with the PHEV I have now though, I’m just thinking 5-10 years down the line when battery technology may have improved range and speed of charge. 
 

Have a Merry Christmas everyone. 

5-10 years down the line the world will have woken up to the big con of EV’s. Range isn’t the challenge, charging infrastructure and generating capacity is the  problem that politicians and EV evangelists are burying heads in the sand to. 

[FROSTYBALLS]

5 hours ago, Cyker said:

It depends whether the right to repair laws stop manufacturers locking the batteries

We're a long, long way off UK right to repair legislation covering vehicles batteries.

Currently the law, which was introduced last year, only covers washing machines, washer-dryers, refrigeration appliances, and televisions/other electronic displays.

[Cyker]

Even the biggest river starts off as a small stream!

The right to repair movement is slowly picking up momentum so I'm hoping by that time it will cover such things.

It's actually quite ironic, as traditionally the car industry has been pretty good on repairability - Access to repair parts and repair manuals has been fairly easy for a reasonable fee.

It's only with the advent of higher technology and EVs that it's started to be a problem, as stuff is increasingly gated behind software black boxes, the manufacturer can disable bits of your car at will, which we aren't allowed to 'fix' even though we own the car, as it's classed as hacking and piracy!

 

In fact even in the computer world, access to hardware repair manuals and parts is generally pretty good, at least among the major manufacturers. It's really Apple that started this trend of deliberate malicious obfuscation, which has spread like a cancer to other manufacturers, and I feel the same happened in the automotive world, with Tesla being the source of that scourge there...

 

[TonyHSD]

The car care nut has showed an episode with a Prius phev from 2018 that has covered 314000 miles , still on its original brakes, batteries, suspension, pretty much everything except regular service and tyres. These cars if looked after well last ages and there should be no worries about Battery problems. Also Toyota relax warranty in uk will cover any eventual premature failure if happens at all. 
For the ev and ranges, I believe that bev are only viable if the y have small batteries and remain light weight. For large vehicles the current Battery tech simply does not allow long range as been mentioned simply because these batteries will be way too heavy and way to slow to charge. How many people do 300 or 500 miles a day, or do you do 400 miles trip every week? 
There are people who cover long distances on daily basis, the best cars for these will be no doubt hev, they are the best medium between weight - range and performance( efficiency) and of course convenience.
Electric cars failed in two major categories without exception: 

1. Long distance travel

2. Towing  

Bev currently only suitable for towns and short commute. Hev or phev are way to go for long trips.

[ernieb]

Agree with the last few comments entirely but would also add that the idea of taking a trip with the need to plan stops for extended periods to charge the batteries and plan alternatives if the first choice is unavailable is not practical for many of us. There is still the issue of multiple payment accounts and poor charging infrastructure to be added to the mix.

I like the idea of a BEV but like many have said above it would ideally need a 300 mile winter range to work for me.

[philip42h]

1 hour ago, ernieb said:

There is still the issue of multiple payment accounts and poor charging infrastructure to be added to the mix.

That is the issue for me ...

I'd be quite happy with a winter range of, say, 215 miles - that's easily enough to get me out and back most days. And it gives a 70% recharge range of around 150 miles for longer trips - so 2 to 3 hours driving which is enough for me in a single leg and I'd be happy to take a recharge and coffee break ... but it is absolutely essential that the recharging infrastructure is in place to make this easy and comfortable. We have no problem setting off knowing that we don't have enough fossil fuel to complete our journey because we are totally confident that we will find a suitable filling station on route ...

Coincidentally, if we could achieve a winter efficiency of 3 miles / kWh, that would be achievable with a 71.4 kWh Battery that could be recharged in under 10 hours at home. In theory, the bZ4X works just fine - okay, half a size smaller with better real world range would be good but the car is there or thereabouts - we're just missing the infrastructure.

[Roy124]

Philip, your break at 2-3 hours would also allow the MyApp log to capture the whole leg (if it actually works).  Much over 3 hours and you are likely to loose the end of a journey.