Brake Hold

[Jimota]

I just want to stop at traffic lights or whatever without putting my foot on the brake and blinding drivers behind me.  Additionally, in stop start traffic, the brake hold makes driving a lot more smoother and enjoyable. Each to their own I suppose.

 

[Cyker]

Brake hold does also hold the brake lights on tho' just fyi!

[MikeSh]

2 hours ago, Jimota said:

I just want to stop at traffic lights or whatever without putting my foot on the brake and blinding drivers behind me.  Additionally, in stop start traffic, the brake hold makes driving a lot more smoother and enjoyable. Each to their own I suppose.

 

Unfortunately you are at the manufacturer's mercy there.

I had an EV for about 18 months a couple of years ago and over that time I realised that in normal driving if I lifted off the throttle I got regen braking equivalent to an ICE with no brake lights, but touching the brake pedal put the lights on. But if I engaged the cruise control even the smallest amount of regen lit the brake lights.

Go figure 

[forkingabout]

5 hours ago, Jimota said:

I just want to stop at traffic lights or whatever without putting my foot on the brake and blinding drivers behind me. 

 

Why?

It hasn't bothered the 10s of thousands of VAG driver's with DSG equipped vehicles that annoy others doing exactly the same thing, if you can't beat them blinding others then may as well join them. 

[Pixelle.]

9 hours ago, Impith said:

Surely you are confusing Brake Hold with Hill-Start Assist, which does work automatically without any button press?

That's what I thought Impith. Hill Start assist is already built in. My understanding is that Break Hold is us used in town when you keep stopping and starting for short periods. Well, that's what the Toyota chap had me try out the test drive. Just break to stop and the car Holds automatically and realises when you press the 'go' peddle.... simples. Maybe they should call it the 'sit' button 😄. I use it all the time in town.

Talking of breaking; as an experienced driver I was a tad worried about releasing control to the B mode to descend a a long and very steep hill for the first time. No need, it did a grand job. Sorted...

[Yugguy1970]

Haven't actually looked in the Yaris, but for the RAV and all other cars that I've had with auto brake hold will shine the brake lights while doing so.

[IT Troll]

On 12/23/2022 at 8:08 PM, Cyker said:

I must admit that is one thing I wish I had the option to disable - The 'creep'.

I find the creep quite useful and will disable brake hold when precision parking is required. With brake hold on you have to depress the accelerator a fair bit to disengage the brake. For me, the creep replaces some of the fine control you have with a manual.

[Cyker]

Yup, same, but there are situations where I do not want the car to creep too which is why I like having the button to toggle the two modes, in lieu of actually being able to turn off the creep.

If I had to choose I'd lean more to not having the creep at all as the accelerator, esp. in Eco mode, provides a very fine level of low speed control as it is, so the creep isn't really necessary, but turning off the brake hold and using the creep alone is the next best thing when doing extremely tight parking manoeuvres!

My gripe with the creep is mainly due to the way it interacts with the EPB - If you want to use the EPB to hold the car, the creep will constantly pull against it for no good reason, and if you don't want that you either have to put it in N, which will make the car complain at you and tell you to put it in D or P, or put it in P which makes a quick move-off impossible (Very annoying on busy roundabouts and short-signals!)

 

7 hours ago, forkingabout said:

Why?

It hasn't bothered the 10s of thousands of VAG driver's with DSG equipped vehicles that annoy others doing exactly the same thing, if you can't beat them blinding others then may as well join them. 

I guess that like me he's a considerate driver, and such things do not sit well with us. Just because everyone else is being a smeghead doesn't mean we have to as well. Although I am now.

I'd rather not but a quirk of how the hybrid system works makes it more hassle than I'm willing to do.

 

[Malomaka]

Well you learn something new every day!

I've been blinding everyone behind me for almost a year, I thought it was a bit crazy having to hold the car using the foot brake when at the traffic lights or in a jam.

[MikeSh]

49 minutes ago, Cyker said:

the creep will constantly pull against it for no good reason

Are you sure it does that? The BEV I had only engaged creep when neither the EPB or footbrake was applied - you could tell from the power meter. It's not a difficult bit of logic to have in an electric system.

But having written that it occurs to me that when the engine is running it might get more complicated. 🤔

[Yugguy1970]

Yeah I know it does in a conventional auto but with the rav brake hold it doesn't feel like there is any creep pressure until you press the accelerator.

[Cyker]

17 minutes ago, MikeSh said:

Are you sure it does that? The BEV I had only engaged creep when neither the EPB or footbrake was applied - you could tell from the power meter. It's not a difficult bit of logic to have in an electric system.

But having written that it occurs to me that when the engine is running it might get more complicated. 🤔

Yes - If I engage the EPB while in D, or switch from Footbrake/Brake Hold to EPB without shifting out of D, you can feel the whole car lurch forward and hunker down at the back as EPB engages and the front wheels start pulling against it.

It could easily be coded out as you say, but when I complained to Toyota they stated it was intentional ("as this is what automatics normally do"), regardless of any actual logic.

It'd just plain stupid, as it doesn't do this when you're using the foot-brake or Brake Hold, so why have it on the EPB?!

I can't remember if it shows power going to the wheels on the power flow meter, but regardless you can feel the torque pulling against the EPB.

 

[MikeSh]

16 minutes ago, Cyker said:

It'd just plain stupid, as it doesn't do this when you're using the foot-brake or Brake Hold, so why have it on the EPB?!

It may still do it on the foot or hold brakes but it will be hard to tell as they fix the front wheels so the creep can't turn them.

[Cyker]

I can feel it pulling against the foot brake too until I actually stop, but you could be right. I'll have to see if the power flow meter shows it driving the wheels on the EPB - With the foot brake and brake hold it shows no power flow when stopped, but can't remember with the EPB because I don't use it in traffic any more.

If it shows power flow, that confirms it is trying to creep against the EPB, and so the absence of power flow with the foot-brake/hold suggests that it is correctly shutting off the motor when using the hydraulic brakes.

 

[anchorman]

The only time it doesn’t creep is in park - you can feel it lurch.  It’s just the field in MG2 because the power split is revolving.  In any case, the transmission and the brakes are designed to accommodate it so why protect it from something it’s designed to do.  Toyota have figured it all out so you don’t have to 🙄

[IT Troll]

4 hours ago, Cyker said:

If I had to choose I'd lean more to not having the creep at all as the accelerator, esp. in Eco mode, provides a very fine level of low speed control as it is, so the creep isn't really necessary, but turning off the brake hold and using the creep alone is the next best thing when doing extremely tight parking manoeuvres!

If you are very close to something (e.g. garage wall) and use the accelerator, the automatic braking system can kick in. But if you use creep and control with the brake, it does not. I test drove a couple of BEVs from other manufacturers when I was shopping around and they still had creep. I guess it is just expected behaviour now.

[Cyker]

That's because the accelerator adds power on top of the creep - I reckon if it didn't have the creep, such manoeuvres could be done with just light dabs of the accelerator and no brakes.

I think partly why I don't like creep is because I'm a manual driver; We can 'disable' creep at will with the clutch which allows far better low speed control than automatics have. It's one thing I've had to get used to, as in a manual you control the car with the clutch at low speed, feeding in tiny amounts of torque and power as needed, but with an automatic that creeps, you are fighting the car, holding it back with the brake, and I find I just can't get as much fine control.

 

[Rhymes with Paris]

Not hybrid system I know, but that Lexus is 200 auto I had,was difficult in some situations.

For example,on a hedonistic weekend in Cleethorpes, I was parking at the rear of the excellent (really) b&b , and it had a low kerb between the road and the parking spot.

With no clutch control, the creep was not enough to climb the slight kerb, and a load of loud pedal would have shot me into the decorative fence at the end of the garden of the lovely b&b owners.

So the front wheels reached the two inch kerb, and the rear wheels had to power it up there.

I am not a fan of honest John's mantra of two foot auto driving, so it was a case of a bit of swift footwork and wheelspin to climb the kerb , and quick stop.

Fence was ok , and enjoyed a calming steak frites with a glass of malbec in la petite delight restaurant later.

Note to any other visitors there, one of the other dining choices is the seaview chippy, where a lot of day trippers unfortunately go,or set up on the beach, and set fire to a couple of tenners.

The end result is the same, you will still be hungry and twenty quid down.

[Jimota]

Thanks for the updates everyone.  I didn’t realise the brake lights came on when brake hold was activated in the Yaris Cross and that causes me a problem.  There’s nothing worse than sitting stationary behind a car at night when their brake lights are on and beaming colourful rays into your eyes.  One of the main reasons of brake hold or auto hold is to make driving a little bit easier and comfortable in stop/start traffic and takes away the need to continuously put the gearbox into park and apply the handbrake.  The alternative is to sit with your foot applied to the brake pedal while stationary, which I don’t like doing.  Maybe legislation changes have created this issue but my understanding of brake lights is to give advanced warning to other drivers at the rear that you are slowing down or coming to a halt.  Once stationary I don’t see the point of brake lights being illuminated as they serve no further purpose.

Strangely, in the VW/Audi Group, some models with automatic boxes had the the brake light illuminate when stopped and others did not.  It’s all a bit confusing but I’m sure someone will be able to give a reasoned answer as to why things changed.

Anyway, my loyalty to the VW/Audi Group is now over and I’m every bit a Toyota fan now.  Still fiddling around with the unaccustomed switchgear and dashboard but I successfully changed the analogue display to the digital format which is much better for me.  Look forward to carrying out further experimentations and test probing with the Yaris Cross.

[MikeSh]

20 minutes ago, Jimota said:

Once stationary I don’t see the point of brake lights being illuminated as they serve no further purpose.

Depends if there is someone right behind you.

If I've stopped at the back of a queue, like for roadworks, and put the car in neutral and parking brake on, I'll still keep my foot on the brake, and thus lights on, until someone has approached and stopped behind me. Because people aren't always paying as much attention or are as well sighted as they are supposed to be.

Defensive driving 🙂

[Jimota]

I’m all for defensive driving and it makes sense to advertise your presence in a hazardous situation by whatever means.  Utilising the hazard warning lights is another option.

[SinglePointSafety]

Brake lights, in a queue of traffic, are an essential item. Why? Because certain drivers (we know who they are, don't we) heads down, tapping away on their smartphones, might - just might - notice the 'change in illumination' as the car in front moves and realise that it's time to put their phones down and go with the flow. They don't call it the 'WhatsApp Gap' for nothing.....😬

Agree with MikeSh. And someone once suggested that cars should have a sensor, so that when it detects a vehicle close behind, it shuts off the brake lights

[anchorman]

4 hours ago, Jimota said:

I’m all for defensive driving and it makes sense to advertise your presence in a hazardous situation by whatever means.  Utilising the hazard warning lights is another option.

Talk about mountains and mole hills.  The Facebook group is full of drama too.  
Jim, if this bothers you so much (take it from me, you’ve got more chance of lotto millions than getting behind somebody who’ll give a rats **** about doing it to you), don’t use auto hold, it defaults to off.  If you wait in traffic but the flippin handbrake on.  You don’t need to un apply it you can just drive off it.  

[Cyker]

22 minutes ago, SinglePointSafety said:

Brake lights, in a queue of traffic, are an essential item. Why? Because certain drivers (we know who they are, don't we) heads down, tapping away on their smartphones, might - just might - notice the 'change in illumination' as the car in front moves and realise that it's time to put their phones down and go with the flow. They don't call it the 'WhatsApp Gap' for nothing.....😬

Agree with MikeSh. And someone once suggested that cars should have a sensor, so that when it detects a vehicle close behind, it shuts off the brake lights

Ahahahaaaa that was a game I used to play in my manual cars - Because I was handbrake+neutral, when it was time to move I could switch to first with no visible change behind and very slowly creep off to see how far I could get before the person behind me noticed  

It was a bit disconcerting how often I could pull it off, although I'd only usually manage 2-3 car lengths, but I once got all the way through the lights just as they changed before the one behind me even noticed  

[Jimota]

Thanks again for the comments everyone.

 

Cheers