Yaris Cross 12v Battery

[Hibird]

1 hour ago, flash22 said:

That is a Mk3 (P130), the Mk4 P210 uses the LN, either way you need to monitor the current draw vs the voltage with an amp clamp

you can take anything out of context, "NOW that's a statement !" If you test an AA battery without a load it will show 1.3-1.5v (effectively a floating voltage) as soon as you load it, it can drop to 0.6 - 0.8v, when it comes to testing wiring you can check continuity and resistance doesn't mean it capable of carrying current

with a hybrid, you are looking at a charge voltage that in is smoothed and regulated by a DC to DC converter

TBH, i don't see the need to be hyper focused on a 12v system

The SOC of any 12V vehicle Battery AGM or other Lead acid Calcium combination is directly related to it's resting open circuit terminal voltage & temperature.

[flash22]

24 minutes ago, Hibird said:

The SOC of any 12V vehicle battery AGM or other Lead acid Calcium combination is directly related to it's resting terminal voltage & temperature.

What is its floating voltage this is not taking into account any current draw of the car, most car's subsystems can stay active for up to 2 hours after the ignition is off and still have a current draw in the 20-80ma range after that period

the main issue with the Mk4 is the DCM and it staying active for prolonged amounts of time

Over analysis leads to paralysis,

 

Complaint - diagnostic - cause - solution - fixed

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[Roy124]

I thought the following clip might lighten any Toyota Battery gloom:

I installed this (Battery monitor) a month ago (on my Fiat 500 electric) and it has unfailingly collected data ever since. It continuously stores Battery voltage, SoC and temperature and makes the data available to the BM6 app when you open it. ......
The reason for installing this is that 12V batteries on EV’s are not managed very well (by the charging system) and can fail unexpectedly, with a consequence of leaving you stranded. The BM6 allows me to monitor and hopefully preempt any potential failure.

Same everywhere.

[RickyC]

2 hours ago, flash22 said:

That is a Mk3 (P130), the Mk4 P210 uses the LN, either way you need to monitor the current draw vs the voltage with an amp clamp

Do you know the exact model used by MK4 Yaris ?

I didn't find any video or picture where MK4 Battery label is shown. 

What the difference between AGM and PN Battery?  Is it possible that this PN Battery can naturally lose charge faster than MK3 AGM ?

[Hibird]

1 hour ago, flash22 said:

What is its floating voltage this is not taking into account any current draw of the car, most car's subsystems can stay active for up to 2 hours after the ignition is off and still have a current draw in the 20-80ma range after that period

the main issue with the Mk4 is the DCM and it staying active for prolonged amounts of time

Over analysis leads to paralysis,

 

Complaint - diagnostic - cause - solution - fixed

                              ¦                              ¦

                                --------<-------

I am sorry to hear you have problems with the DCM staying active.

And yes you can not accurately determine Battery SOC from a connected Battery I think we all know that.

However if you or me  wanted to know the SOC, a resting OC voltage/temperature measurement would tell us.

Battery SOC is a measurement only related to the battery not vehicle subsytems and don't think I suggested otherwise.

Hope you get the DCM issue sorted.

 

 

[Hibird]

54 minutes ago, Roy124 said:

I thought the following clip might lighten any Toyota battery gloom:

I installed this (battery monitor) a month ago (on my Fiat 500 electric) and it has unfailingly collected data ever since. It continuously stores battery voltage, SoC and temperature and makes the data available to the BM6 app when you open it. ......
The reason for installing this is that 12V batteries on EV’s are not managed very well (by the charging system) and can fail unexpectedly, with a consequence of leaving you stranded. The BM6 allows me to monitor and hopefully preempt any potential failure.

Same everywhere.

Fiat 500 electric, they look great don't they.

[flash22]

i have no issue with the Mk4 dcm as i don't own a MK4, most cars after 2020 have DCM's

36 minutes ago, RickyC said:

Do you know the exact model used by MK4 Yaris ?

I didn't find any video or picture where MK4 battery label is shown. 

What the difference between AGM and PN battery?  Is it possible that this PN battery can naturally lose charge faster than MK3 AGM ?

AGM - Absorbent Glass mat - usually Deep cycle and like to be charged low and slow around 15.3v

Calcium (LN0 type on the yaris)- the plates are coated in a calcium to make them harder (lead acid) it's just a newer tech supposedly more energy dense - Part No. 28800-K0020 https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acsenergylett.1c00593

 

[Hibird]

4 minutes ago, flash22 said:

i have no issue with the Mk4 dcm as i don't own a MK4, most cars after 2020 have DCM's

AGM - Absorbent Glass mat - usually Deep cycle and like to be charged low and slow around 15.3v

Calcium (LN0)- the plates are coated in a calcium (lead acid) it's just a newer tech - Part No. 28800-K0020 https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acsenergylett.1c00593

 

Good news on the DCM front then missed your vehicle spec sorry.

I will stick to 14.7 V on my AGM charging.

[Dala]

[anchorman]

The problem I have with this thread is that there are people that come to the forum because they are thinking of buying a Mk4 or a Cross, have bought one or in rare circumstances have suffered a problem.  If you are one of these people, don’t be alarmed, there are some that like to pontificate and dramatise about something which is in fact extremely rare.  I know several people with these vehicles, some of which have done a lot of standing and furthermore, a lot of standing in cold weather and not a single one of them has had a problem.  It isn’t common at all.  Yes, you’ll see a few here but that is the nature of a forum, it tends to draw those that have struggled.  So!  Don’t beat yourself up about Battery voltage of two decimal places, if it starts you’re good and if you want 2 decimal places, 99.99% of these cars do.  The ones that do struggle are where they have not only done a lot of standing but when they do drive they have used the lights and heater, maybe seats and steering wheel heaters and other large current draw on a short trip which takes more than it gives. In these cases you might benefit from a smart charger or a jump pack with a brief tutorial but for those that can only park on the street that might not be possible.  This is where your only option is to leave the car in the ready mode periodically.  Think of it like using a powerpack to charge a mobile phone, while the car is the ready mode, the big Battery will charge the little one for you.  Forget all the technical guff above, it’s as simple as that.  Maybe the dealers should undertake a short survey when taking an order just to try and identify a potential problem but avoid trying to bamboozle them with “my Battery rhetoric is bigger than yours”.   

[Derek.w]

I prefere to keep my Battery voltage at 12.2 volts or higher lower voltages are not good for the life of the Battery.

This is a reading of when all systems are on sleep mode if starting polls it down to 12 volts thats OK.

[IT Troll]

44 minutes ago, anchorman said:

This is where your only option is to leave the car in the ready mode periodically.

With the connected services and MyT infrastructure it would be relatively easy for Toyota to send a notification to the app when the Battery needs a boost via ready mode. If nothing else, folks would worry less knowing that Battery condition is being monitored.

[anchorman]

51 minutes ago, IT Troll said:

With the connected services and MyT infrastructure it would be relatively easy for Toyota to send a notification to the app when the battery needs a boost via ready mode. If nothing else, folks would worry less knowing that battery condition is being monitored.

The Lexus I had definitely reported Battery condition.  Mine only ever said “good” so I don’t know what else it could do.

[Derek.w]

AGM batteries,

charge at Max 15.3 volts float charge at 14.4 to 13.94 volts.

[Max_Headroom]

8 hours ago, anchorman said:

 Forget all the technical guff above, it’s as simple as that.  Maybe the dealers should undertake a short survey when taking an order just to try and identify a potential problem but avoid trying to bamboozle them with “my battery rhetoric is bigger than yours”. 

Maybe they should explain that the car needs to be placed in ready mode if stood still for any length of time and you are using the heater, air con, lights etc. 

[anchorman]

3 hours ago, Max_Headroom said:

Maybe they should explain that the car needs to be placed in ready mode if stood still for any length of time and you are using the heater, air con, lights etc. 

yes, as I say it might require some training but it’s only like having a new appliance at home.  Most people once shown would be fine.  

[Roy124]

11 hours ago, IT Troll said:

With the connected services and MyT infrastructure it would be relatively easy for Toyota to send a notification to the app when the battery needs a boost via ready mode. If nothing else, folks would worry less knowing that battery condition is being monitored.

The MyT App on Connected Services mentions that Battery state is monitored.  When I asked Toyota they said not on the Yaris Cross.  It might be available on other models. 

 

[Hibird]

I think this thread has done it's job in highlighting the different opinions on the 12V Battery depending on individual experience.

My personal experience would suggest there is no problem and all is well but clearly that is not a view shared by all and welcome contributions from both sides.

I would like to think that the people who believe there are issues express that to Toyota in an appropriate manner but I have no idea if that is the case.

If my situation was a endless loop of Battery charging/ready mode/Jump starting and AA call outs I would be unhappy. This is not the case so I guess that makes me a happy owner but respect the views of those less fortunate.

I am sure the story will continue but one day that 12 Volt Battery will be gone and not before time.

 

 

[Cyker]

10 hours ago, Max_Headroom said:

Maybe they should explain that the car needs to be placed in ready mode if stood still for any length of time and you are using the heater, air con, lights etc. 

Yeah, they really should do that as part of the handover, where they show you how to use the car and stuff.

(Assuming handovers are still a thing; I was glad I'd already played with one at the launch event, and also driven my dad's push-button start car, otherwise I'd probably still be stuck in the car park trying to figure out how to start it  )

[Roy124]

6 hours ago, Hibird said:

I am sure the story will continue but one day that 12 Volt battery will be gone and not before time.

The 12v Battery should have gone from EV cars but it is clear that some at least still have a 12v Battery.  

What function does that lump of lead and acid or AGM actually perform?  In the Toyota it holds a low voltage charge gained from the HV Battery.  The latter, when the system is shut down, is isolated (I guess) from the car systems.  The 12v battery, besides holding sufficient charge to power up the main computer, provides offline power for the tracker, the alarm system, the remote control system etc.

Even that original product, Tesla, has a 12v battery.  It also suffers from Vampire drainage for the same reasons shown above.  Being Tesla it does have ways of charging the 12v battery from the HV and then going into protected mode.

Clearly low voltage systems will be here for many years yet.  

 

[Cyker]

It's actually a safety thing - Well, it was anyway. Tesla don't seem to bother any more from what I can tell!

The idea was that, when the car is off, the high-voltage system is completely disconnected from the rest of the car, but you still need something to power the standby systems that e.g. listen for the remote key signal etc. and, most importantly, power up the traction Battery contactors to connect it when the car is 'started'/switched on, so the 12v Battery is retained.

I thought it was a law, but Teslas seem to have their traction Battery connected all the time for things like Sentry Mode and a lot of the newer on-line functions they support, so maybe it isn't actually required by law...?

 

[Roy124]

What I was thinking around was the need for an LV energy storage solution. The Tesla protection mode and the ability to shut down the blood supply to  the vampire 😁

Take my particular situation. I drive my car to the cruise terminal where there is valet parking.  Once the car is securely parked I could send a shut down command.  This could cut communication via Toyota.  It could disable the alarm and shut down the smart key option. 

If the car had to be moved to a different car park the key could be used to allow the car to be moved - a valet parking mode - with automatic systems shut down once powered off. 

The problem is to get car companies to recognise and address the problem. 

[Dala]

https://youtu.be/b3obneAXXeY

[Hibird]

On 2/1/2023 at 6:10 PM, Roy124 said:

The 12v battery should have gone from EV cars but it is clear that some at least still have a 12v battery.  

What function does that lump of lead and acid or AGM actually perform?  In the Toyota it holds a low voltage charge gained from the HV battery.  The latter, when the system is shut down, is isolated (I guess) from the car systems.  The 12v battery, besides holding sufficient charge to power up the main computer, provides offline power for the tracker, the alarm system, the remote control system etc.

Even that original product, Tesla, has a 12v battery.  It also suffers from Vampire drainage for the same reasons shown above.  Being Tesla it does have ways of charging the 12v battery from the HV and then going into protected mode.

Clearly low voltage systems will be here for many years yet.  

 

I am also sure low voltage systems will continue and probably will for many years and maybe forever (well maybe not ever) for good reasons but may not invlove a wet cell Battery of any type.

There are other choices now but as always cost is an issue today but may not be tomorrow.