Hybrid Health Check

[Saxmaniac]

I do an extra oil change too, so it's 5000 mile changes; there's debate about whether it's necessary but a genuine filter and Petronas oil as recommended by Tony here doesn't break the bank 

[TonyHSD]

Guys, you need to be careful with buying any “ original Toyota parts and oils and fluids “ from places other than dealer. eBay and Amazon particularly and independent sites. If they aren’t officially registered dealers that sells cars and services better do not buy. The risk of getting fake parts is high  and it’s has been proven here numerous times. 
For the oil changes here another interesting video from our friend across the pond. 

I am not sure 5000 miles oil change will prevent cylinder glazing. But I know what will cause it the most straight after a bad design piston rings: -excessive idling, cold engine running, short town trips only, poor quality oil, skipping oil service intervals. 👍

[FROSTYBALLS]

3 minutes ago, TonyHSD said:

you need to be careful with buying any “ original Toyota parts and oils and fluids “ from places other than dealer. EBay and Amazon particularly and independent sites.

Aside from the official Toyota stores on Amazon and eBay, and Toyota dealers who sell on eBay.

[Cyker]

And the forum's sponsoring reseller!  

 

[forkingabout]

Or me ordering it via works parts department if the number is on the system & booking it out to a counter balance 🤣

[Gray86]

I’ve been ordering service parts for my wife’s Yaris from E-hybrid (on eBay),  but not entirely convinced the parts were genuine. Seemed to pass a lot of the ‘car care but tests’ - like how squidgy (or not) the oil filter is. I’m now buying from Opie Oils, and using a genuine Bosch filter. 

[TonyHSD]

31 minutes ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

Aside from the official Toyota stores on Amazon and eBay, and Toyota dealers who sell on eBay.

There are some guys like “e hybrid” who has changed his name to something else. , he owns a few profiles on eBay., some parts look genuine but some not at all and he started his business with fake Toyota spark plugs. 
There are some other sellers too. This is only for UK, for Europe and American will be much more vendors. 

[Yugguy1970]

I could get a diag app and cable but let's say it did find something wrong with the Battery.  I'd still have to pay Toyota 50 quid to check it before they'd even think about a warranty claim.

When I last serviced my own cars there was a Merc dealer that sold genuine service kits on eBay at a decent price so I always got those.

[AisinW]

1. Relax warranty is a program to keep dealership profitable. The main income of dealership is financing and service dept. It does not cover typical worn parts in bushings, 12V, shocks, brake pads. 

2. Only Get  OEM parts from dealership, nothing else. Otherwise after market often offer better value (especially engine oil and filter). We often can get VW or GM Dexos 0w-20 oil that is notabene more refine than Toyota API SN with 20k miles rating. DexosD have more stringent tests than API SP/ILSAC 6. 

3. Use only the free version Dr. PRIUS. Just check the voltage deviation, temperature, and internal resistance. That's it. Only true ELM327 OBD2 scanners can use Dr. PRIUS apps.

 

[FROSTYBALLS]

10 minutes ago, AisinW said:

It does not cover typical worn parts in bushings, 12V, shocks, brake pads. 

Most extended warranties don't cover wear & tear parts - e.g. brake pads, etc - and new car warranties only offer limited cover on these (ie 6 months for brake discs and so on).

 

[AisinW]

6 hours ago, Gerhard_Corolla said:

It makes a lot of sense in Germany to shop around, I could find a dealership within an hour drive that offered the service 250 devaluated euros less than in Munich, the difference it's just insane... It's our fuel budget for three or four months!

 

I would like to make an oil change in between annual maintenances, and I've found a dealer that sells oil change sets on Ebay, then I could go to a workshop club and do the job myself...

If you are in Germany, Pitstop.de gives the best rate for oil change. €100 with Castrol Edge Longlife IV. The dealership in Germany is generally honest unlike in USA but the price is nuts. €180+ for an oil change and becomes €320 to get the stupid inspection stamps. German people is crazy about paper and stamps. Many of them complain that some dealership only keep records online.

In contrast, i can get the full history of any Toyota or Lexus in USA as long as I know the VIN number. I also can search the history of any cars including accidents, recalls, and service with Carfax.com 

In Germany, it is impossible. But we can still do it for USA imported cars from USA military base in Pfalz. 

[Gerhard_Corolla]

On 1/5/2023 at 4:33 PM, Yugguy1970 said:

I have to ask, are you actually typing "250 devaluated euros" or is it the forum word filter? 🤣

It's the unfortunate truth...

[Gerhard_Corolla]

On 1/5/2023 at 11:08 PM, AisinW said:

If you are in Germany, Pitstop.de gives the best rate for oil change. €100 with Castrol Edge Longlife IV. The dealership in Germany is generally honest unlike in USA but the price is nuts. €180+ for an oil change and becomes €320 to get the stupid inspection stamps. German people is crazy about paper and stamps. Many of them complain that some dealership only keep records online.

In contrast, i can get the full history of any Toyota or Lexus in USA as long as I know the VIN number. I also can search the history of any cars including accidents, recalls, and service with Carfax.com 

In Germany, it is impossible. But we can still do it for USA imported cars from USA military base in Pfalz. 

Indeed...

 

The issue is the 0W16 oil, not many workshops have it in stock and you don't have many products with the GF-6B specification available on the market, just Liqui Moly and Ravenol, outside of the Toyota branded oil of course. Out of pure entertainment, I'm going to pursue the Hobby Workshop's route for the in between services oil changes, and the costs will be more or less the same as the ones offered in pitstop.de.

 

 

[TonyHSD]

35 minutes ago, Gerhard_Corolla said:

Indeed...

 

The issue is the 0W16 oil, not many workshops have it in stock and you don't have many products with the GF-6B specification available on the market, just Liqui Moly and Ravenol, outside of the Toyota branded oil of course. Out of pure entertainment, I'm going to pursue the Hobby Workshop's route for the in between services oil changes, and the costs will be more or less the same as the ones offered in pitstop.de.

 

 

Petronas has now 0w16 on eBay uk. Good oil for a good price. They also offer 0w20 with gf-6 specs. I already used for 20k miles and the oil seems the same as previous gf-5 spec. The car drinks more oil than ever but that’s most likely because it has a mileage equal the distance to the moon 😂

[Yugguy1970]

Question though.

I used to do mid service oil changes when I had full ice cars but as the hybrid engines don't run all the time is it still worth it?

[AisinW]

Oil change interval depends on our situations. UK and most western europe have relatively mild weather and 10k miles interval is enough.  Oil consumption issues can be "reduced" by doing 5k miles/6 months interval especially if our car are prone to oil consumptions.  Those are 2.5L (2010-2015), 1.8 L (2010-2014), and some oldiest 1.3L and 1.6L. 

I have not heard any 2015-newer 1.8L Prius, Auris, and corolla with oil consumption issue even after 200k+ miles. 

If I change my own oil or independent shop, I will take Ravenol 0w-16, true PAO oil but not cheap. 

[Gerhard_Corolla]

On 1/7/2023 at 5:58 PM, Yugguy1970 said:

Question though.

I used to do mid service oil changes when I had full ice cars but as the hybrid engines don't run all the time is it still worth it?

As @AisinW said, everything is relative to your case; for example, if you do a lot of short trips, it's considered an abnormal use of the vehicle, such as is high daily mileage, and you should change the oil at half the periods specified for normal use...

 

In forums from the USA and Canada, countries where oil changes are almost a religion and they send their used old to laboratories for testing, have found that the advertised 15,000 km/7,500 mls or yearly oil changes are close to be the ideal maintenance schedule. I've read a few guys that published their laboratory results, and found almost the same wear and tear from 0W16 oils at half the maintenance intervals proposed as the yearly "official" ones. I'll guess it all depends on your budget for maintenance and how long or well maintained you wish to keep your car. If you shop around dealerships for your regular maintenance program, you can do an intermediate oil change with the amount saved; it certainly cannot damage the engine, just delay a little bit more the decay.  

 

 

[Saxmaniac]

On 1/7/2023 at 4:58 PM, Yugguy1970 said:

Question though.

I used to do mid service oil changes when I had full ice cars but as the hybrid engines don't run all the time is it still worth it?

It could be that hybrid is harder on the oil. A motor likes nothing better than long journeys running continuously at full operating temperature. Hybrid is doing a lot of stop start unless at higher speeds. I don't know the true answer to all this, just a matter of personal choice whether to over maintain rather than under. Any benefits are in the very long term 

[TonyHSD]

2 hours ago, Saxmaniac said:

It could be that hybrid is harder on the oil. A motor likes nothing better than long journeys running continuously at full operating temperature. Hybrid is doing a lot of stop start unless at higher speeds. I don't know the true answer to all this, just a matter of personal choice whether to over maintain rather than under. Any benefits are in the very long term 

That’s what I think been thought by Toyota engineers and the recommended intervals should be ok for the engine to continue to operating without any problems for a long time( miles). The car care nut is not a Toyota engineer but a dealer trained mechanic. He adds maintenance things as his own personal thoughts, which doesn’t necessarily mean he is right about everything he says.
Also many other diy mechanics has their own opinion on that matter.  
Oil changes should be within the manufacturer recommended intervals for time/mileage and all that in conjunction with how the car been used. 
Do you guys think that if I was using Toyota genuine engine oil and did 5k oil changes instead of 10k my car wouldn’t been using oil now at 12 years and 234000 miles?
I personally don’t know for sure, but if there are gen 3 hybrid owners that has done 234000 miles or more and has always did  5k miles oil change intervals and their cars does not use oil between changes at that point  I will be happy to hear that and will congratulate them.
For me my car oil consumption its normal for the age and mileage, it has progressively risen, nothing out of ordinary. Let see how long the car will last as I don’t have plans to change until uneconomical to repair or maintain 👍

[AisinW]

On 1/9/2023 at 3:34 PM, TonyHSD said:

That’s what I think been thought by Toyota engineers and the recommended intervals should be ok for the engine to continue to operating without any problems for a long time( miles). The car care nut is not a Toyota engineer but a dealer trained mechanic. He adds maintenance things as his own personal thoughts, which doesn’t necessarily mean he is right about everything he says.
Also many other diy mechanics has their own opinion on that matter.  
Oil changes should be within the manufacturer recommended intervals for time/mileage and all that in conjunction with how the car been used. 
Do you guys think that if I was using Toyota genuine engine oil and did 5k oil changes instead of 10k my car wouldn’t been using oil now at 12 years and 234000 miles?
I personally don’t know for sure, but if there are gen 3 hybrid owners that has done 234000 miles or more and has always did  5k miles oil change intervals and their cars does not use oil between changes at that point  I will be happy to hear that and will congratulate them.
For me my car oil consumption its normal for the age and mileage, it has progressively risen, nothing out of ordinary. Let see how long the car will last as I don’t have plans to change until uneconomical to repair or maintain 👍

I think it is not easy to find an example of 2010-2014 without any oil consumption at certain degree. My 2015 engine is only 90k miles, 10k miles interval up to last year and no oil consumption. Look the statistics below:

 https://m.carcomplaints.com/Toyota/Prius/

In the USA forums, all of the oil consumption complaints are pre-2014 model. 

It is easier to find 2.5L Camry/RAV4 examples that consume and do not consume oil base on how they drive and Oil change interval. 

So, oil consumption issue can be completely avoided on certain engines. (My V6 Sienna 04 210k miles no oil consumption 5k miles interval). 

[Saxmaniac]

There's another YouTube channel called Toyota Maintenance, a one man band Toyota specialist and he's another one strongly advocating 5k oil changes. End of the day, everyone is free to do what they want with their own car and will have their own set of experiences too. The above chap did state that the only reason Toyota advised 10k was for marketing reasons, ie making it look as if maintenance costs less than the competition. I've always suspected this since Vauxhall were advising 20k oil changes on deisels in the mid 2000s. And Ford's advised cam belt intervals in the 80s were a disaster! But that's another story 

[AisinW]

I think 10k miles interval in certified ILSAC 6A and 6B, and ACEA C5 oil or better are OK as long as we do not use the car exclusively in city with traffict jam or living in very cold/hot/dusty area.   European manufacturer  often overestimate the capability of their engines+oil especially the luxury BMW, Benz, Volvo, and Audi.  Their costumers are people who only keep their car up to warranty time (3y-6y).  There are some oil that can stand 20k miles/2 years in gasoline engine under ideal conditon (highway, >30 minutes, no towing or uphill with full of passanger), that is also called Longlife Oil (BMW, VAG, Benz, Volvo, Dexos D,etc.).  Even in the USA, Walmart sold Mobil 1 Extended Performance for $32 in 5 quarts bottle and guaranteed for 20k miles/1 y interval. 

Besides Oil, some facts:

1. ZF, Getrag, etc. always said 60-100k miles ATF interval is a must but manufacturer claimed it is filled for life (up to warranty time).

2. Oil consumption is considered to be normal even on a new car with the limit of 1L per 1250 miles. 

3. Pentosin who made Coolant for VW, etc. specifically said coolant lifespan is 10y or 120k miles on G12+ and superlonglife type coolant but manufacturer never mentioned about the coolant interval. 

4. I think VW use timing belt again these days and VW claim never need to be replaced (until warranty expired). 

So, we need to decide on which condition we should do.   I do not follow the Brake Fluid Interval (2y) for the past 2 decades and my brake system never have issue. I change it when the color gets dark or water contents about 2%. 5-10 years interval in hybrid is just right and 3-5 years on non hybrid.  The hybrid-system check is only required in Europe for getting the warranty. Not sure why, but Americans and Canadian get the 8y/150k miles warranty regardless where and how you maintain the car.  I think hybrid-system check is necessary only if I want to sell the car or after 10th year in UK.  The risk to have bad Battery before 10 years is very very low. 

 

[JayCee88]

On 1/5/2023 at 9:42 PM, AisinW said:

3. Use only the free version Dr. PRIUS. Just check the voltage deviation, temperature, and internal resistance. That's it. Only true ELM327 OBD2 scanners can use Dr. PRIUS apps.

 

Curious, any reasoning behind this? Would there be a risk of running the Battery tests?

[AisinW]

12 minutes ago, JayCee88 said:

Curious, any reasoning behind this? Would there be a risk of running the battery tests?

I just do not want to waste my money on it. I found Battery tests is not good on any App. Not even Toyota scanner can do it. You only know good or bad nothing in between. 

A stupid Youtuber is crazy about it, spent $600 in Prolong device because Dr. PRIUS showed the health is not 100%. He open and risk his life charging each cell with Prolong.  Get 120% health, and few weeks later the Battery still dead, even more dead than before he mess around with Prolong.  

The hybrid Battery go bad from aging, thermal degradation, and cycles.  It is better to spent £500 until 15th year if you worry about your battery. 

[TonyHSD]

The only thing that you can learn from scanning your hybrid Battery is the voltage deviation between the different cells and the lower the number the better is. Temperature check , and cooling fan speed tests can be performed, perhaps this is what is done by Toyota technicians when health check been carried out. Last time I checked mine two years ago and all the numbers were very good and very close. I may run another check in the next few days and take some screen shots 

Found a picture from 30/01/2021 mileage 163000