2013 Auris Hybrid - brake fluid bleeding (not Using the Techstream)

[Fostel]

On 1/22/2023 at 7:04 PM, Davidhee58 said:

Hi John,  if the brake fluid level in the reservoir is close to the max,  roughly, how much fluid is there? I had a quick look at my car, it seems to me quite a lot, ~400ml?  you said to bleed the system it does not have to be 1L, can it be possibly done in 0.5L by Toyota technisian? if so, I don't need to flush the brake system as my car had a full service including the brake fluid change at the dealership 3 years ago, if they only replaced the fluid in the reservoir, this means my car brake fluid has not been flushed for 6 years. Yes, the fluid in the reservoir looks clear and the water content is <1% so far,  this may only tell me the fluid in the reservoir is ok, but the fluid in other parts of the system may be not in same conditions as they weren't flushed before. Or maybe I am wrong, over the time (3years), the fresh fluid in the reservoir has been mixed well with the old fluid in the far ends of the system already, that seems difficult to me, particularly for hybrid car as it uses engine brake in most of time.          

My experience with dealerships is that they only top up missing brake fluid and charge you for the whole 500ml.

This procedure is wrong in itself as you could judge the brake pad wear by seeing the brake fluid drop. They just mess everything up. I never trusted them. Do It Yourself and you know that it is done.

[AisinW]

Exactly, I changed the front brake pads and disc and the brake fluid are overfilled after that. So, I suck some out to the max level. 

I will be so sad and ask for refund if dealership only do refill the reservoir. Check the bleeder screws, it must be clean and shows obvious marks that it had been opened. 

[Fostel]

On 1/26/2023 at 1:57 PM, AisinW said:

Exactly, I changed the front brake pads and disc and the brake fluid are overfilled after that. So, I suck some out to the max level. 

I will be so sad and ask for refund if dealership only do refill the reservoir. Check the bleeder screws, it must be clean and shows obvious marks that it had been opened. 

Getting ready for the service now. Yesterday, I checked the rear (I've done pads, disks, and guide pins a few years back) and they are wearing evenly. Sprayed with a brake cleaner. Calipers weere rusted a bit so I sprayed them with the black hi-temp paint and called a day.

Today I plan to replace the engine oil and filter.

After that, I will finally replace the pads in the front and lubricate the guide pins. The outside ones are 3-4 mm but the inner ones are 5-6 mm.

Question is.

I heard that for the front brakes disconnecting the negative (-) Battery is recommended. Can I safely disconnect the power in the engine bay fuse box? How?

Also, I've got the whole bottle of brake fluid and would like to use it in one go. I will replace what is in the reservoir but would like to bleed some from the bleeding valve. I've got the clean bottle and transparent tube but I guess I need a second person to pump the brakes from inside, right?

Any tips and advice appreciated.

[Fostel]

On 1/22/2023 at 9:34 PM, AisinW said:

The brake fluid gets dark in normal cars after about 4-5 years but not in hybrid.

Yeah, mine is dark. I think Toyota never did the techstream flush as they claimed. It was just topped up but they charged for the whole bottle. Now when I replace the pads the fluid will overflow (coz of them!). The car is from 2013 (I have owned it since 2016) and I am sure the fluid is original.

[Roker]

On 1/2/2023 at 6:35 PM, Fostel said:

I am going to replace the brake fluid on my 3rd gen.
The front pads are getting thinner and will be replaced too.

1.     Should I bleed the brakes when the fluid level is low (old thin pads)?
2.     or it would be better to change the pads first and then flush the fluid?

I would think that the 1st option is better avoiding any oil getting to the new pads but I am wondering if there is any right way to do it.

It intriguesme how water can get into a sealed system. I had my Avensis for 13 yr and never changed the break fluid and it still worked perfect 

 

[Fostel]

1 minute ago, Roker said:

It intriguesme how water can get into a sealed system. I had my Avensis for 13 yr and never changed the break fluid and it still worked perfect 

The brakes still work well and mine Auris is 10 years old. It's just that is quite dark and moldy in the reservoir. Also, I have 1 liter of Toyota 5.1 fluid, tubes, and glass buster https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0001IWV30 to do the job. I guess I won't do it anymore in the life of this car.

[AisinW]

7 hours ago, Fostel said:

Yeah, mine is dark. I think Toyota never did the techstream flush as they claimed. It was just topped up but they charged for the whole bottle. Now when I replace the pads the fluid will overflow (coz of them!). The car is from 2013 (I have owned it since 2016) and I am sure the fluid is original.

There is no need to do any Techstream for just brake fluid flush. Just suck the old fluid from the reservoir, put new in, start bleed the fluid from the rear right, rear left, front right, front left. 

Disconnect the negative Battery cable to prevent out of sudden the brake booster is triggered and popout the piston when working with brake. 

I am surprised you have a dark brake fluid. You should take the sample on a clear glass not just by looking at it. Thr shadow and dark area around the reservoir makes things look darker. I have the same feeling too at the beginning but it turns out the fluid is still very clear and bright for 6 years old fluid. 

[Saxmaniac]

I recently did mine with non techstream method, car in invalid mode, I didn't disconnect the Battery, the rears use the pump to force fluid out from the bleed nipple. Front done in the normal way as per non hybrid. Overall it's easier than a conventional car. I did it without helper, propped brake pedal so pump started as rear nipples opened. One way valve in exit pipe from nipple so pumping brake to do front can be done single handed. I used about 1 litre of fluid for a flush 

[Fostel]

Guys, Do I need to disconnect the 12V Battery to replace the front brake pads?

 

[Fostel]

On 1/3/2023 at 7:23 PM, AisinW said:

1. You should not use the electronic brake booster in hybrid, it may drain the 12V battery too much. 
2. The pads normally wear about 1/2 at around 70k miles. It lasts at least 150k miles for most of us. Change the pads first, brake bleeding is not necessary unless you touch the banjo bolts or bleeder screws. We never need to bleed the brakes when changing pads or rotors. 

1. Yeah, I heard that. Using a Battery charger is recommended
2. I replaced rears at around 70k miles (too early as they were still quite thick - but I did not measure them then). I am now at 96k miles and the front pads need replacement. The inner one is ok-ish 5-6 mm but the outer ones are around 2-3mm and could fail MOT in NOV-DEC. Also, uneven wear means to me that after that mileage cleaning and lubricating of guide pins are highly recommended.

What banjo bolts are?

 

 

[Fostel]

On 1/9/2023 at 11:35 PM, AisinW said:

I am convinced that brake fluid change in hybrid every 2 years is overkill. 

Agree 100% but my car is 10 years old and I am sure the fluid has never been changed. Also, I have a 1L bottle already purchased.

[Fostel]

On 1/9/2023 at 11:45 PM, TonyHSD said:

Indeed, plus the dealers all they do is suck some fluid from the tank with syringe and add new one if they do anything at all. 4-5 years perhaps a good time for replacement. 

I suspect they do not even suck from the tank and just top up to the max as the level drops when the pads are wearing down.

[Fostel]

On 1/19/2023 at 12:55 PM, TonyHSD said:

You can depressurise the system, then disconnect negative terminal on the 12v battery. Do the old school front callipers. Re connect the negative terminal, wait the system to pressurise itself, check fluid level all the time and between each tasks, set the car into valet mode , flesh the rear callipers and after you are done, let the car seats on its wheels at level place, turn off ignition and wait the system to depressurise itself, check brake fluid level should be at max top line. Job done ✅ 

I heard that the rear should be done first and then the front. It will be easier for me to do the front first. Does it really matter that much?

[Fostel]

On 1/22/2023 at 5:42 PM, AisinW said:

Spent your money better on more frequent Oil change instead. 

I've been always doing engine oil changes every 10k miles. This time I replaced it after 6k as the car was already jacked up. It was dark and thicker than new so I guess I have done it right.

[Fostel]

On 10/2/2023 at 12:21 PM, Saxmaniac said:

1.  car in invalid mode,
2. I did it without helper,

1. Would you share how to put auris in invalid mode, please?
2. How?

[Fostel]

Just watched this video. Why this is different? The abs pumped fluid from the front too.

 

After watching the below video I thought about purchasing the brake fluid tester (but which?).

Also, this guy scared me off a bit with his precautions. The first video is so easy and the second seems to overcomplicate the thing.

What is he talking about in point 3? Do not open the bleeder that is on the hydraulic unit. What? Where?

 

[TonyHSD]

You can do front first then rear. You can do with Battery disconnected fronts and it’s better as you not gonna use brake booster , if you do it with Battery connected then better to start the car in ready mode. 
Check fluid in reservoir and top up frequently.  This invalid mode it’s not necessary really, just do it in ready mode but remember press and hold brake pedal for a short period of time, 2-4 seconds. Be quick with open and close the bleeder as the electric pump sends a lots of brake fluid. 
That’s pretty much all important things. 

[Fostel]

35 minutes ago, TonyHSD said:

You can do front first then rear. You can do with battery disconnected fronts and it’s better as you not gonna use brake booster , if you do it with battery connected then better to start the car in ready mode. 
Check fluid in reservoir and top up frequently.  This invalid mode it’s not necessary really, just do it in ready mode but remember press and hold brake pedal for a short period of time, 2-4 seconds. Be quick with open and close the bleeder as the electric pump sends a lots of brake fluid. 
That’s pretty much all important things. 

What about 'one-person method'? I really like Chris Fix.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpiXOBRkZs4

The thing that bothers me is, how do you go into the car to pump the brake pedal when opening the door triggers the pump? 🤔

 

Also, got this tool. Should arrive tomorrow. https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07F2DHKSB

I need to focus on pads really. Trying to find the torquing spec for the front (Bosch) guide pins/caliper bolts.

 

[Saxmaniac]

You're worrying too much about fluid flush. Put Battery maintainer on 12v Battery, put into invalid mode, bleed rears using brake booster pump to force fluid out, bleed front in conventional way. It's as per Toyota manual no n techstream procedure 

[AisinW]

I don't recommend flushing brake fluid more often than 7y in any hybrid or EV. It is just waste of time and money. 

Get a brake fluid tester, about £5 in LIDL and it is 0.5% accuracy which is enough. I never get more than 2% before brake fluid change 7-10y period and the color is still very clear and bright. 

I always do it via gravity or vacuum hand pump. Many of us degrade the 12V Battery when using the brake booster motor too long for the rear brakes. The sulphation permanent degradation occurs anytime the AGM Battery voltage droped below 12V. So. Do it with cautions. 

[Fostel]

8 hours ago, AisinW said:

I don't recommend flushing brake fluid more often than 7y in any hybrid or EV. It is just waste of time and money. 

Get a brake fluid tester, about £5 in LIDL and it is 0.5% accuracy which is enough. I never get more than 2% before brake fluid change 7-10y period and the color is still very clear and bright. 

I always do it via gravity or vacuum hand pump. Many of us degrade the 12V battery when using the brake booster motor too long for the rear brakes. The sulphation permanent degradation occurs anytime the AGM battery voltage droped below 12V. So. Do it with cautions. 

Thanks. You were spot on. When I used a flashlight the fluid was bright yellow in the reservoir (do not know how it looks close to the bleeder). Amazon delivered the tester (5 LEDs - 0,1,2,3,4%) The fluid tested 1% the water showed a full range = 4% so I guess it works).

Still, I've got this 1L bottle of brake fluid and going to use it as I am moving house soon. The plan is to

1) replace fluid out of the reservoir => question, how low can I go without any risk?

2) pump some out the fronts in invalid mode (and break the bleeder loose as it wasn't touched for 10 years).

3) then cancel invalid mode, and let it run for a while to top up the Battery

4) jack up the rear, get invalid mode again, and use the booster according to the manual (BRAKE FLUID.pdf)

 

The pads replacement went fine. But 80% of the time I spent on prep = removing rust, and brake dust to fit new hardware. I could not remove the rubber boots from the caliper holder so cleaned as much as I could and lubricated them and the pins were moving freely.

Just reread the Toyota manual. What they are talking about on p.11b FRONT BRAKE(for 16 inch Front Brake).pdf?

Quote

Perform the following procedure if air bleeding is not necessary.

1. Connect the reservoir level switch connector.

2. Clear the DTCs.

 

Also, I noticed that FRONT STABILIZER LINKS wore down (rubber boots were torn and grease went out). I have new ones (Lemforder) but had a hard time unscrewing them (rusted). Sprayed penetrating oil and I almost get them before sunset. Sprayed some more and will try again tomorrow.

=> Question. When I undo them, will something drop? Do I need to support something with a jack or installation will be easy?

 

 

 

[Fostel]

3 minutes ago, Fostel said:

.

Edited October 6, 2023 by Fostel
Doubled

[TonyHSD]

1 hour ago, Fostel said:

Thanks. You were spot on. When I used a flashlight the fluid was bright yellow in the reservoir (do not know how it looks close to the bleeder). Amazon delivered the tester (5 LEDs - 0,1,2,3,4%) The fluid tested 1% the water showed a full range = 4% so I guess it works).

Still, I've got this 1L bottle of brake fluid and going to use it as I am moving house soon. The plan is to

1) replace fluid out of the reservoir => question, how low can I go without any risk?

2) pump some out the fronts in invalid mode (and break the bleeder loose as it wasn't touched for 10 years).

3) then cancel invalid mode, and let it run for a while to top up the battery

4) jack up the rear, get invalid mode again, and use the booster according to the manual (BRAKE FLUID.pdf)

 

The pads replacement went fine. But 80% of the time I spent on prep = removing rust, and brake dust to fit new hardware. I could not remove the rubber boots from the caliper holder so cleaned as much as I could and lubricated them and the pins were moving freely.

Just reread the Toyota manual. What they are talking about on p.11b FRONT BRAKE(for 16 inch Front Brake).pdf?

 

Also, I noticed that FRONT STABILIZER LINKS wore down (rubber boots were torn and grease went out). I have new ones (Lemforder) but had a hard time unscrewing them (rusted). Sprayed penetrating oil and I almost get them before sunset. Sprayed some more and will try again tomorrow.

=> Question. When I undo them, will something drop? Do I need to support something with a jack or installation will be easy?

 

 

 

Stabiliser bar links with wheels off the ground is fine. Nothing will drop. To undo the rusty nuts you can use lock up pliers to hold the bolt from spinning. Then the new one has a hex built in to keep when tightening up. 

[Fostel]

10 hours ago, TonyHSD said:

Stabiliser bar links with wheels off the ground is fine. Nothing will drop. To undo the rusty nuts you can use lock up pliers to hold the bolt from spinning. Then the new one has a hex built in to keep when tightening up. 

Thanks. The original one has a hex built-in but is rusty inside and does not fit. Had to brush off the rust and hammer hex in.

The new ones do not have hex, they have two nuts - thin and thick. I guess that is a counterbolt setup - not sure how to do it. Maybe the little card inside will shed some light.

 

Also, my brake hardware kit came with 8 wear indicators so I installed them all. All fitted nicely without forcing anything

The car (and original toyota kit) came with only 4 (on top of the pad).

I would redo this if safety issue, but I do not think that matters. Let me know your thoughts guys. Thanks.

 

 

 

[AisinW]

You will need 2 jack stands to support your car on leveled surface.  if the car is tilted, the stabilizer bar links is loaded and have tensions. It can snap. Use a lot of rust penetrator 1 or  2 days before bolts removals.  I ended up using metal saw to cut the nuts because of rusted stabilizer bar links.  

There is not so much risk on changing brake fluid on the reservoir alone. It is enough to keep a fresh fluid and additives new.  The brake fluid wear depends not only on water absorption, but mainly from the heat cycle of braking.  Brake fluid gets dark fast when we have a heavy car or racing it.   My non hybrid cars brake fluid always gets dark after 3-5 years. The additives and the oil breakdowns in high heat.  Hybrid system makes the brake fluid system happy for decades.