Toyota 2 litre hybrid vs Honda 2 litre hybrid

[Cyker]

I find Honda's approach to hybrids a bit unusual; Unlike the Toyota series/parallel system, they're essentially just series hybrids - so basically an EV but with a small Battery and generator (The engine) - but there is a lock-up clutch which allows the engine to drive the wheels directly at certain speeds. It's not as flexible as the HSD, which can use the engine at the full range of speeds, but it's still an interesting take on it.

I'm curious how it affects the efficiency, as when the engine is locked to the wheels its rpm will be locked to the speed of the car and it won't e.g. be able to do what e.g. my Mk4 can do and hold e.g. 2000rpm at 50-69+mph when cruising

21 minutes ago, forkingabout said:

Sooner or later it will coke up, especially if lightly used.

More & more vehicle manufacturers are now starting to copy the Toyota D-4S system. 

TBH I'm surprised more of them haven't copied the dynamic force engines that only have direct injection but spray the fuel over the intake valve, as that'd be a lot cheaper than having twice as many injectors!

 

[Bozz]

9 hours ago, Cyker said:

I find Honda's approach to hybrids a bit unusual; Unlike the Toyota series/parallel system, they're essentially just series hybrids - so basically an EV but with a small battery and generator (The engine) - but there is a lock-up clutch which allows the engine to drive the wheels directly at certain speeds. It's not as flexible as the HSD, which can use the engine at the full range of speeds, but it's still an interesting take on it.

I'm curious how it affects the efficiency, as when the engine is locked to the wheels its rpm will be locked to the speed of the car and it won't e.g. be able to do what e.g. my Mk4 can do and hold e.g. 2000rpm at 50-69+mph when cruising

TBH I'm surprised more of them haven't copied the dynamic force engines that only have direct injection but spray the fuel over the intake valve, as that'd be a lot cheaper than having twice as many injectors!

 

I might have misunderstood this but my Dynamic Force engine has both port injection and direct injection which it can use together or independently.

[Bozz]

20 hours ago, Yugguy1970 said:

All that medium hatch size of cars are getting of a similar price.  

Even the Ford Focus is now pushing 30k for a decent spec one.   

Manufacturers are trying to maintain their profits even though they can't produce the volume which is partly due to chip shortages. Hence the big list price hikes.

[AisinW]

Honda and Toyota Power train quality are the best for the money.  Unlike other brand that put the money in gimmick, giant screen,  unnecessary camera and sensors that attract unwise people to buy gimmick instead of appliances.  

Hybrid system in VW, Hyundai/KIA are so clunky and crude.  Some manufacturer only have direct injection only just to cut the price and cleaning the intake valves as part of the maintenance.  

[Bozz]

14 minutes ago, AisinW said:

Honda and Toyota Power train quality are the best for the money.  Unlike other brand that put the money in gimmick, giant screen,  unnecessary camera and sensors that attract unwise people to buy gimmick instead of appliances.  

Hybrid system in VW, Hyundai/KIA are so clunky and crude.  Some manufacturer only have direct injection only just to cut the price and cleaning the intake valves as part of the maintenance.  

The Prince engine used in BMW, Mini, Peugeot, and Citroen was one of the worst culprits of early coking up through use of direct injection.  

[Cyker]

9 hours ago, Bozz said:

I might have misunderstood this but my Dynamic Force engine has both port injection and direct injection which it can use together or independently.

Most of them do but not all; The M15A-FKS only has direct injection (I think? Might have the wrong engine!), but squirts it over the inlet valves as they open, to stop it coking up

[Gray86]

On 1/4/2023 at 5:56 PM, Cyker said:

Most of them do but not all; The M15A-FKS only has direct injection (I think? Might have the wrong engine!), but squirts it over the inlet valves as they open, to stop it coking up

The FXE is the hybrid version I think, which looks to have only port injection (which is at odds with the 2.0 and 2.5 which have D4S - direct & multipoint) 

 

source: https://toyota-club.net/files/faq/20-08-01_faq_df_r3_en.htm

[AisinW]

On 1/4/2023 at 6:56 PM, Cyker said:

Most of them do but not all; The M15A-FKS only has direct injection (I think? Might have the wrong engine!), but squirts it over the inlet valves as they open, to stop it coking up

Yes it is similar to 1.2 Turbo, direct injection only. Early reports and Technical Service Bulletin show the 1.2L have carbon built-up issue too. So, avoid it unless you are willing to have cleaning intake valve as part of regular repairs. It varies a lot depending on how we drive. Fuel only effect the injectors not intake carbonised issue. 

We need to change our mindset about cheap/expensive by including resale value and repair costs.

[Saxmaniac]

There's a YouTube channel revolving round Toyota and Hyundai hybrids among other things. The presenter comes over as somewhat eccentric! However you get to see both systems stripped and various faults dealt with. The most interesting was the Hyundai, to me their hybrid is the most horrible design possible, it's got the worst of all worlds, GDI engine, dual clutch gearbox with a third hydraulic clutch, belt driven MG1 starter/generator. It's massively over complicated and bound to give problems over the long term. Compare with the simple mechanical setup of the Toyota. Beautifully mechanics designed mechanics trump any perceived inferior driving characteristics in my book though others might prefer the sporty feel and gimmicky stuff 

[Cyker]

8 hours ago, AisinW said:

Yes it is similar to 1.2 Turbo, direct injection only. Early reports and Technical Service Bulletin show the 1.2L have carbon built-up issue too. So, avoid it unless you are willing to have cleaning intake valve as part of regular repairs. It varies a lot depending on how we drive. Fuel only effect the injectors not intake carbonised issue. 

We need to change our mindset about cheap/expensive by including resale value and repair costs.

The difference is the 8NR-FE doesn't spray over the valves, but the M15A-FKS does, and from what I've heard it's far less susceptible to carbon buildup on the intake valves than the 8NR-FE, so it seems that strategy does help mitigate the problem without needing both port and direct injection.

I prefer port injection anyway as I never really got the point of direct injection in a petrol outside of high-performance applications. You just get more stratification and worse mixing; It's known that direct injection tends to have higher particulates and NOx than port injection for those reasons.

 

5 hours ago, Saxmaniac said:

There's a YouTube channel revolving round Toyota and Hyundai hybrids among other things. The presenter comes over as somewhat eccentric! However you get to see both systems stripped and various faults dealt with. The most interesting was the Hyundai, to me their hybrid is the most horrible design possible, it's got the worst of all worlds, GDI engine, dual clutch gearbox with a third hydraulic clutch, belt driven MG1 starter/generator. It's massively over complicated and bound to give problems over the long term. Compare with the simple mechanical setup of the Toyota. Beautifully mechanics designed mechanics trump any perceived inferior driving characteristics in my book though others might prefer the sporty feel and gimmicky stuff 

Oooh what channel is that? Sounds like the sort of thing I'd find interesting  

[AisinW]

Yes, the hybrid system in hyundai is dubious, really bad. Crysler, Ford, Nissan used HSD in the past. I am not sure about  Peugeot and VW system. I think BMW and Daimler use similar to Toyota Tundra with pancake motors. At least they do not use serpentine belts.

[Saxmaniac]

11 hours ago, Cyker said:

The difference is the 8NR-FE doesn't spray over the valves, but the M15A-FKS does, and from what I've heard it's far less susceptible to carbon buildup on the intake valves than the 8NR-FE, so it seems that strategy does help mitigate the problem without needing both port and direct injection.

I prefer port injection anyway as I never really got the point of direct injection in a petrol outside of high-performance applications. You just get more stratification and worse mixing; It's known that direct injection tends to have higher particulates and NOx than port injection for those reasons.

 

Oooh what channel is that? Sounds like the sort of thing I'd find interesting  

https://youtube.com/@hybridsolutiondiagnostics

 

Sorry I forgot to add a link, I think this might work to get you to the channel, there's a lot of videos, very interesting though slightly bonkers presenter 

[AndrueC]

I still occasionally drop into the Honda Jazz club website and from that it appears that the Honda Jazz hybrid is marginally more efficient than my 1.8 Excel.

So my guess is that whilst there's not a lot in it Honda might have a more efficient system. As a previous long-term Honda owner I can say that their overall reliability is excellent. I never had any of my Hondas fail in a significant way.

However the last Jazz - the first made in Japan - wasn't as well designed and did suffer from a few minor niggles. The worst of them was when toward the end the door mirrors started randomly closing and opening while driving. They were actually the main reason I looked elsewhere - the dealer told me they wouldn't do anything until it could be reliably demonstrated. An attitude I'd never encountered from that dealer before.

[TonyHSD]

Honda hybrids getting popular indeed. They seems more like electric cars with large range extender, which works almost all the time. The fake effects for engine noise and gear changes if can be switched off and the car deliver smooth acceleration and quiet drive then I can accept them and give it a try. Interiors of recent Honda and Mazdas looks better made with better materials than Toyota models.
Toyota will drop significantly their customers satisfaction and reliability  ratings, because of some stupid stuff going on with 12v batteries, clutch plates, software updates, poor sound proofing, cheap plastics , lack of room especially on the rear seats, not properly opening of rear doors, rust on hinges, poor quality paint work, limitations to local markets and price too high. Still the best hybrid system, unfortunately with too many “but’s ” .  
I know they read here, so please make a note. 
Thank you. 

[Tomv]

Just some technical info about the Honda drivetrain , as someone has already wrote:

"it's basically an electric car with a petrol generator on the board"

and for speed above 110Km/h the petrol engine connects to the drivetrain at fix gear that has similar ratio as 6th gear in manual gearbox.

from the reviews I have read, it is not as fuel efficient as Toyota's but feels more dynamic.

[Cyker]

I would hope the Jazz has better mpg than the Corolla - It's in the same class as the Yaris!! If it was worse that would be pretty poor.

The new Jazz hybrid is a good rival for the new Yaris as it's quite similar in many ways. I would say the interior is better, as it has more Yaris-like storage and flexibility, which the Mk3 and Mk4 Yaris sacrificed, but the Yaris has much better handling and driving dynamics and felt faster to me. It also has a better dash, plus the HUD option. Another advantage is it can use the engine and MG2 together to accelerate the car at any speed, but the Jazz can't until it gets to higher speeds and can engage the lockup clutch. I think the drive motor of the Jazz is more powerful tho', as it has to do a lot more work, whereas MG2 and the ICE share the load a lot more in the Yaris. The Jazz is more refined tho' - Its engine was definitely less 'dieselly' than the Yaris  

 

[TonyHSD]

Here is the civic 

 

[JayCee88]

Love the interior, 2 USB slots too. Everything looks upmarket and well layed out. Definitely step ahead of the Corolla.

[scar]

My observations on the Toyota, Honda hybrid debate.

Our last 2 Toyota's were the latest RAV4 in top spec (cannot remember the style name) and the latest Yaris. Again top spec. 

The RAV was a great car, a few minor design/software issues. Very happy with this car but my daughter bought it off me after it was a year old. She needed a car with space for newly arrived child and waiting lists were long. I would have another, quality materials in the cabin and an upmarket feel.

Now the Yaris was beset by technical problems which Toyota (stoneacre) Sunderland could not fix and even stopped replying to my emails. The trim quality was exceptionally poor. Door cards in particular. This was my wife's car and had an easy life. However the trim looked like it had suffered years of abuse. The technical issue was really annoying ( there is a thread on this site about it, 20+ page) Car was sold.

Both cars replaced by Honda's, my wife got a HRV hybrid (advance style) interior is on par with the RAV4. She is delighted with it. Loves the heated seats and steering wheel. (same as the RAV) 

Me, I searched for a long time and eventually got a Civic 10th gen 1.8L auto SR 2017 year. 10,000 miles and serviced 5 times at Honda. It looked like a showroom model. These cars have a reputation for being built to a standard rather than cost. 

Both Toyota and Honda produce the best hybrid vehicles but as you move through the models they offer you find the good and the not so good.

In the case of Toyota the Yaris is not so good whilst the RAV4 is excellent. I did drive the corolla but don't really have enough experience of it to give an assessment. One thing that does really put me off some Toyota models is the dark head linings and no alternative to change. The CHR is a good example of this.

The Honda jazz hybrid, is built to a higher standard than the Yaris and a clear winner if that that was your choice. As to the RAV4 v Honda CRV, having owned a CRV for for 5 years and driven the hybrid version I would say the RAV4 is the winner. Caveat here, the latest CRV hybrid is not being sold in the UK for some reason. It has a more powerful engine and the hybrid system mimics a conventional box as in the Civic. 

This updated CRV would I guess make it a match.

So who do I think is the winner ? that really is a personal choice. Opinions everybody has one.

Drive safe....    Steve

I will update my info and remove the Yaris.

Seems the profile data will not allow a blank "what Toyota do you own" so it remains the same unless a moderator can tell me how to do so.

😀

[AndrueC]

1 hour ago, JayCee88 said:

Love the interior, 2 USB slots too. Everything looks upmarket and well layed out. Definitely step ahead of the Corolla.

My previous Jazz had three USB slots. All data and all full power charging. One under the infotainment unit, two more in the arm rest.

[bunnyrabbit03]

It is also worth remembering that the Corolla is a facelift (albeit with a new power train etc.), with the basic design going back to 2018/19. The Honda is an entirely new model. So any comparison is somewhat limited by default. 

[davidif]

On 1/7/2023 at 8:02 PM, JayCee88 said:

Love the interior, 2 USB slots too. Everything looks upmarket and well layed out. Definitely step ahead of the Corolla.

Except that to my eyes at least it looks like a design that is about 10 years older than the (yet to be facelifted) Corolla!