Whats wrong with the mk4 Yaris?

[anchorman]

59 minutes ago, Eddie G said:

Draped in a big red reveal sheet! did the sales person think it was a Ferrari 😂 luckily my last two Toyota's have been with a fair sales person who was not full of the brown stuff but rather keen on selling extras, like GAP and Paint Protection.

When I went for my Lexus I warned the salesman that a ribbon might result in serious harm!!!

[Cyker]

I must admit I do love my Mk4, it's so good!  

I probably would have kept my Mk1 if I wasn't forced to get rid of it by KHAAAAAN!, as the Mk4 cost something like 8x what I paid for the Mk1, and it definitely isn't 8x better than the Mk1, but despite that I have no regrets, which is impressive since I'm normally quite tight-fisted  

It's pretty much all that I want out of a car - Small, agile, responsive, cheap to run, goes anywhere, can hold all my gear and is uncomfortable in the back to try and encourage my friends to get their own damned cars instead of using me as a taxi!!  

Of the 3 rivals, the new Yaris is definitely the better looking; The Jazz and in a bizarre twist the Clio especially are exceptionally boring. It's mad, the world is all topsy-turvey!

The Jazz was a strong contender when I was trying to decide which one to get, but while it does have the better interior (More cubby storage and those magic rear seats!) and can rival the Yaris for the mpg, I wasn't confident in its long term reliability and it was so much less fun to drive than the Yaris. It just screams mum's family hatchback and would not have made for a fun hooning machine for me.  Toyota really did a good job on the TNGA platform and you can really feel the structural improvements, when you throw it round a corner  The Jazz felt like it was using the same structure as the previous model and was just more... 'floppy'.

I hadn't tried the Renault, but I think the hybrid Clio is floundering for a target audience; It doesn't come even close to the Jazz or Yaris for economy - I think it would struggle against even the 2.0L Corolla in the real world! And while it is faster on paper than the Jazz and Yaris, if you wanted a fast hatchback there are better cars out there. It's also much heavier which compromises its handling, and then there's always that concern of the reliability of french electrics, which is a big concern when a significant part of the car is the power electronics!

 

[Guest]

12 hours ago, Cyker said:

then there's always that concern of the reliability of french electrics, which is a big concern when a significant part of the car is the power electronics!

Which are possibly sourced from the same place as a French built Yaris?

[anchorman]

29 minutes ago, newagetraveller said:

Which are possibly sourced from the same place as a French built Yaris?

No, definitely not.  Yaris uses mainly Denso electrics.  They may have a European plant but they’re made to Japanese spec.  

[flash22]

Mk1 and 2 Aygo's have no end of PSA parts, Valeo do supply some parts, but they are usually a better quality then Valeo produce for PSA OEM

 

90% of french cars are built down to a very low price, that now includes Nissan what's a Renault in a Kimono and Vauxhall what is Peugeot in a tweed jacket (the Corsa is based on the 208)

[forkingabout]

33 minutes ago, flash22 said:

Vauxhall what is Peugeot in a tweed jacket (the Corsa is based on the 208)

Driven a few as loan cars & it's easy to tell the original signed off new GM product design has had a quick PSA / Stellantis make over before launch.

[anchorman]

Aygo is a bad example because it’s a joint venture.   Incidentally I think the Peugeot version is better looking and a better package of the three.  

[flash22]

iirc the corsa (F) is built on the 208 platform (PSA CMP) as of 2019 with the PSA engines - GM/Opel killed off their own platform and engines circa 2018

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opel_Corsa#Corsa_F_(2019)

one of the best Corsa's i owned was the Facelift Corsa C (54 plate) out of the A (Nova), B, C and D

 

[Mojo1010]

So mechanically the OP did not have a problem with the car, so there's nothing wrong. Other people have explained the reasons behind large numbers of Yaris available for sale. So case close. 

[Max_Headroom]

20 hours ago, Cyker said:

The irony there is getting a new EV is actually worse for the environment than getting a second-hand car! Even with the higher pollution of an ICE car, it could take something like 5-10 years for the environmental footprint of making the EV in the first place to be off-set vs the ICE car.

 

Outside that, things aren't as great. The higher cost will take a long time to offset

 

Cyker the anti EV lot  is not aimed at you.

The picture below will come as a shock to many especially the anti EV lot who keep telling everyone that will listen that EV's are not greener than ICE cars.

Another thing they like to reminds us is that EV's cost so much it takes years to break even this argument will soon become an old wives tail as its widely predicted the price of new ICE cars and EV's will be the same within two years and as most people buy their new car using PCP Battery longevity will not be a concern.

 

 

[Mojo1010]

I don't agree with the prediction in 2 years price will be the same. 

 

 

 

[Max_Headroom]

9 minutes ago, Mojo1010 said:

I don't agree with the prediction in 2 years price will be the same. 

You don't have to agree i am telling you what they were discussing on a recent 5 live phone in if you don't believe it fair enough.

[Max_Headroom]

 

Don't just take my (and 5lives) word for it - 

Production cost

The good news is that there is not long to wait until the production cost of new EVs falls to the same as ICEVs. Electric cars should cost the same to make as petrol and diesel equivalents by 2024 and could cost even less to make soon after.

https://deltaimpact.com/blog/when-will-electric-cars-be-affordable-in-the-uk/#:~:text=The good news is that,less to make soon after.

 

[Mojo1010]

They can discuss, it's a prediction. I'm looking the at figures now, don't think it will in that timeframe. The Yaris design need to go up 4k, Zoe need to come down by the same. 

There are cheaper cars than the Yaris. 

[Cyker]

54 minutes ago, Max_Headroom said:

Cyker the anti EV lot  is not aimed at you.

The picture below will come as a shock to many especially the anti EV lot who keep telling everyone that will listen that EV's are not greener than ICE cars.

Another thing they like to reminds us is that EV's cost so much it takes years to break even this argument will soon become an old wives tail as its widely predicted the price of new ICE cars and EV's will be the same within two years and as most people buy their new car using PCP battery longevity will not be a concern.

 

 

Just to clarify, I wasn't saying that EVs are worse than ICE, I was saying a *new* EV is worse than a *used* ICE.

The point I was making is that people who buy brand new EV after brand new EV, claiming that they're saving the planet are, at best, deluded - The mere act of building a new car, any kind of car, creates a large environmental impact, which would take years to offset, even against relatively polluting ICE vehicles that already exist.

If these people truly wanted to do good for the environment,  the best thing they could do is buy a used car, or better yet not buy a car at all. Of course, they would argue the latter is not practical, so despite their professed importance of the environment, it turns out there other things they find more important...

The thing is, the act of replacing every single ICE car with an EV prematurely will have a far bigger impact on the environment than if existing vehicles were allowed to reach the end of their life-cycle naturally.

 

BTW, I'm not anti-EV - The only reason I could buy the Mk4 is specifically because I had already been saving for an EV for a very long time! - but I've been stung by believing a lot of the BS EVangelists were spouting in the beginning. Things like the compact drive train means there will be a lot more space in the car without a big giant engine taking up space, or that we would have 300+ miles range by now, or that 'fuel' costs would be pennies on the pound compared to ICE cars, or that they would never break down.

So now I'm a lot more skeptical/realistic about the sometimes ludicrous claims that gets bandied about.

I've always liked electric motors - They are literally the best way to convert energy into motion, without all the compromises ICE have to work around. I *want* an EV, but I want it for practical reasons, not as a show piece or 'virtue signalling' - I depend on my vehicle for my livelihood and I'm not going to give EVs a free pass and over look their problems just because they are EVs - They have to be able to compete with existing technology to do what I need out of a car, and they just aren't there yet.

I made another point in another thread ages ago, comparing the spread of diesel cars - There was no diesel grant like there was with EVs, and there was no cut-off date for petrols to try and forcibly move people to diesels. They were more expensive than petrols.

Yet the uptake of diesel was very strong, much stronger than EVs. Why is that?

It's because compared to petrol, diesel was equal to or superior to petrol in all the areas that matter to real people in the real world - More torque, more range, cheaper fuel costs, better reliability etc. They had all the upsides of petrol and very few downsides.

(Obviously this has changed a lot now; All the emissions control stuff on modern diesels has destroyed most of their advantages which, along with VW Dieselgate, has pretty much killed off diesel!)

So why have EVs not been able to duplicate this success? They have/had so much backing that diesel never had - Grants, tax breaks, free 'fuel' even for the early adopters.

I think it's partly because of lack of choice and high cost, although clearly that's not a big reason since Toyota's hybrids have been incredibly popular and those lack choice and have high cost too, but in a big part because they are still far less practical for most people than ICE cars. Right now, EVs are only clearly superior for people who a) Have a lot of money, b) Have a driveway/garage and can charge at home c) Only travel long distances/beyond the range of their EV very rarely and d) Aren't afraid to have 20+ apps installed and/or are quite techie for when they do travel longer distances and have to deal with the chaos of the UK charger network

Where diesel was similar to petrol but 'better', EVs are not similar to petrol or diesel - They have some strong advantages, but also some big disadvantages which we've not had to deal with before.

 

I'm not expecting the price of EVs to come down any time soon; Even a new diesel still costs more than its petrol counterpart, and hybrids even more so (£24k for a Yaris! A Yaris!! ). With the cost of lithium going up, the Battery pack will remain a significant cause of the higher price until someone invents a superior alternative and gets it to market, and that is likely a decade away at least.

There are cheaper EVs coming out but they've done that by shrinking the Battery pack and hoping the reduced weight will improve efficiency enough that the range isn't a joke.

At the end of the day, I really like being able to drive like a hooligan and still get 400-500 miles out of 26-28L of fuel, rather than driving like a saint and still barely getting 200, and that's just out of reach for EVs with current technology at the moment...

 

...

 

Sorry that got longer than I thought it would...   

[Max_Headroom]

28 minutes ago, Mojo1010 said:

They can discuss, it's a prediction.

Of course its a prediction but when you get so may people agreeing that its going to happen over the next couple of years i tend to think it will.

 

At last November's Glasgow climate talks COP26, many analysts predicted the cost of electric vehicles were set to plummet in the next few years.

Then in December, the government cut down the grant for buyers of electric vehicles.

So will they still soon be much cheaper? In short, yes. Here's why.

Electric cars are becoming much cheaper to make

Battery electric vehicle (EV) prices have already fallen dramatically and are expected to reach parity with petrol or diesel cars between 2025 and 2027 - and be cheaper very soon after.

The average motorist should save £700 a year in fuel costs by switching, according to New Automotive, a research group aiming to accelerate the shift to electric.

The price drop is partly due to advancements in the batteries, set to tumble further still, as well as carmakers producing more mass market cars.

"International agreements on climate change mean car companies understand that there is a global transition to clean transport under way," said Ben Nelmes from New Automotive.

"They are racing to increase the number of electric models they are selling to secure a share of tomorrow's car market," he said.

Now that the auto industry is designing EVs from scratch - rather than adapting existing design structures known as "platforms" - they are improving both performance and cost.

https://news.sky.com/story/electric-car-prices-are-about-to-plummet-heres-why-12536407

 

 

 

 

[TonyHSD]

Watching the new Toyota cars prices going up every month no surprise if the ice meets the ev prices in less than two years 😂👌

[Max_Headroom]

Quote

The thing is, the act of replacing every single ICE car with an EV prematurely will have a far bigger impact on the environment than if existing vehicles were allowed to reach the end of their life-cycle naturally.

No one is saying they are going to replace every ICE with an EV in the near future, at the moment the thing holding EV's back for many is lack of on street charging there is no point in having an EV if you cannot park off street and use your own electricity which is free if you have solar,  fast chargers (i believe) cost nearly as much as filling with petrol when you come down to miles per penny so they are only going to be used on long planned journeys or emergencies. 

Even when on street charging becomes commonplace people will still prefer ICE engine cars so they  will be around for many years to come.

 

[Mojo1010]

In my road there are no driveway, about 100 houses. Recently a lamp post charge point was installed (1), 5kw @42p kw. In 5 years time I shall review the whole EV situation. 

Anyway, we are going far off topic. Don't want to be labelled as a silly old fool like cyker 😉

[Cyker]

I wasn't saying they are going to replace all ICE cars in the near future, just that the *hypothetical* act of doing so would be far worse for the environment.

That said, look what's happening with the ULEZ in London and now other cities, and also in some Euro countries - It's not hard to imagine these same money-grubbing scumbags banning ICE cars completely from going to certain places in the not-too-distant future, using the same strawman arguments they're using now. ("We have to do something about the toxic air! Ignore my fleet of range rovers and all the diesel busses and taxies still allowed, *YOUR* CARS ARE KILLING THE CHILDREN!!11!11!oneeleven! Ignore the report we commissioned that ended up contradicting what we're telling you! ")

That would effectively force everyone in those locations to switch to EVs, as it has done in London with people forced to trade their diesels (Which his party encouraged them to buy in the first place!) for higher CO2 emitting petrols and expensive hybrids, which has had a knock-on effect on used car prices across the country, esp. with hybrids.

 

I'll be interested to see if street parking becomes a thing - Unless the cost is quite high, I can't imagine anyone doing it en-masse as I feel it would be a loss-maker. If you tried it here, you'd have a lot of vandalized cables and/or electrocuted teenagers, and local marijuana production would probably skyrocket  

I personally think street charging is a bad idea - I can just see cables being run over or tripping people up on a regular basis, not to mention the aforementioned vandalism. Given the how badly maintained dedicated charge sites currently are, I don't see how they could maintain masses of street chargers; They'd likely spend most of their time not working and then people would start fighting over them...

I've always been a proponent of having them in major retail park and supermarket car parks - That lets people charge while they're doing something, so rather than wasting hours of their lives charging, they can do something useful while they're waiting, and they would be more likely to have some sort of regular on-site maintenance.

It would also encourage more shopping, which would help stimulate the economy!

 

Really what we need is Mr Fusion. If we could power our cars on a banana peel, some eggs and a can of beer we'd be laughing!  

 

[flash22]

The infrastructure is not in place, if there is, it may not be working or operating at required charge rate

EVM tested 10 of his local ones only 40% worked correctly and this is someone with years of EV ownership

 

 

[jerry123]

4 hours ago, Mojo1010 said:

So mechanically the OP did not have a problem with the car, so there's nothing wrong. Other people have explained the reasons behind large numbers of Yaris available for sale. So case close. 

You're right the OP didn't have any mechanical issues with the Yaris but I must admit that if I had read some of the posts on this forum before purchasing the car I would have been more apprehensive. I've read comments on here about putting the Yaris on trickle charge if you are not going to use it for a few days, that just seems a bit crazy to me. If you are buying a brand new car you shouldn't have to do things like that, previously I had been buying Fords and never encountered any such issues.

[TonyHSD]

2 minutes ago, jerry123 said:

You're right the OP didn't have any mechanical issues with the Yaris but I must admit that if I had read some of the posts on this forum before purchasing the car I would have been more apprehensive. I've read comments on here about putting the Yaris on trickle charge if you are not going to use it for a few days, that just seems a bit crazy to me. If you are buying a brand new car you shouldn't have to do things like that, previously I had been buying Fords and never encountered any such issues.

Is that mean that you won’t try again your luck with a Toyota hybrids? 

[Mojo1010]

The trickle charge things are those who hardly drives or for very short distances when they do (or some cases, inherited an low charge Battery from the previous owner). That's the main problem, they can have little complains as far as i am concern.

There are a lot of posts, people have been away for 2 weeks in the winter and car starts fine. I have been away for 9 days in sept, not winter, car starts fine on an original Battery - May 2016. 

 

[Max_Headroom]