Akio Toyoda Stepping aside and how will effect Toyota?

[Eddie G]

Will Akio Toyoda stepping aside for Toyota's EV catch up effect the drivability and passion he injected into Toyota? 

[davidif]

19 minutes ago, Eddie G said:

Will Akio Toyoda stepping aside for Toyota's EV catch up effect the drivability and passion he injected into Toyota? 

I sincerely hope not, one or two reports I've read indicate that his successor is 'cut from the same cloth'

Lets hope so🤞

 

[Eddie G]

14 minutes ago, davidif said:

I sincerely hope not, one or two reports I've read indicate that his successor is 'cut from the same cloth'

Lets hope so🤞

 

Same here 🤞 

[forkingabout]

We all know that Toyota's current EV offerings like the bZ4X are just a stop gap to shut up the moaning motoring press until Toyota launches a game changing EV that will suit most people's needs.

Toyota isn't behind in EVs, it just isn't ready to show the world what it's really up to & what is up its sleeve.

[Bper]

He's stepping down to become chairman of the board, his successor may even bring some great new ideas of his own.😃

[Eddie G]

13 minutes ago, Bper said:

He's stepping down to become chairman of the board, his successor may even bring some great new ideas of his own.😃

Toyoda's views on the push for more EV only cars at Toyota seems to be the reason, environmental reasons are a bigger question but will Toyota's EV only cars be as good as their Hybrids to drive? only time will tell.....

[Bper]

Hi Eddie,

IMO it always comes back to the issue of infrastructure and cost with EVs, environmental issues will always be raised unless all countries adopt the same polices and implement the changes required for both global and local power and charging infrastructures.

As far as will Toyota EVs be as good as the hybrids, yes I doubt Toyota have been sitting back on their laurels, they will probably come out with revolutionary Evs that will change the market.👍

[Cyker]

I think they're aiming to be first to market with solid state cells, which will help with a lot of the problems current EVs have. I know they're still several years out tho' as there is a reason nobody's bothered with solid state cells until now, and they're probably running in to all those reasons now  

 

[Bper]

9 minutes ago, Cyker said:

I think they're aiming to be first to market with solid state cells, which will help with a lot of the problems current EVs have. I know they're still several years out tho' as there is a reason nobody's bothered with solid state cells until now, and they're probably running in to all those reasons now  

 

Yes absolutely right providing they can overcome some of the issues below.

Production costs of solid-state batteries are relatively higher as it is an emerging Battery technology and since its manufacturing is not happening in mass quantities.

Solid state batteries have high internal resistance at solid electrodes/electrolyte interfaces which slows down the fast charging and discharging process.

Accumulation of electrode material is treated as an inherent chemical flaw that degrades the battery’s life after a number of charge-discharge cycles.

Mass production and manufacturing of solid-state batteries is a difficult task. This is due to the unavailability of perfect solid electrolyte material.

[AJones]

9 hours ago, forkingabout said:

Toyota isn't behind in EVs, it just isn't ready to show the world what it's really up to & what is up its sleeve.

Well, other manufacturers have more EV models in their ranges and are selling them in higher, in some cases vastly higher volumes than Toyota, so simply judging the data you would have to say that at the moment Toyota is behind, based on certain objective measures.

Perhaps Toyota does have something up its sleeve, but to date its EVs have been ok but they haven't been in notably better than the competitors and it hasn't sold them in significant numbers. Other EV manufacturers have all had slow ramping up of production as they've worked to grow Battery supply, so the idea of any manufacturer coming out with some game changing model, in large volumes very quickly, seems unlikely just from the difficulties in sourcing the volumes of batteries needed.

The bit I've found surprising about Toyota's strategy, given its initial lead with hybrids, was why it hasn't launched more plug-in hybrids. They played to Toyota strength in hybrids and don't need as much Battery capacity while still allowing a shift to electric driving without the range issues. But other manufacturers have got ahead of Toyota here as well.

[APS]

11 hours ago, Eddie G said:

Will Akio Toyoda stepping aside for Toyota's EV catch up effect the drivability and passion he injected into Toyota? 

Thanks for bringing this up Eddie! I had completely missed these news. 

To answer your question, I'm guessing yes and no. (Crazy speculations, I know!) But hear me out. Yes, Toyoda-san is a well known car enthusiast, and petrol head alike. We can indeed thank him for making efforts to shake off some of the dusty, bland image that the brand had gathered over the decades. Toyota's are now cars that not only make sense, they can actually talk to your heart. I mean, compare the current Corolla with previous versions, the Yaris. The C-HR was a bit of a curveball. Just look at it - it's cool. Then we have the halo models; the GR Yaris, GR 86, and, I guess, the GR Supra. The GR brand is definitely a direct result of Akio's lust for wheeling with fervour. 

According to Toyoda-san himself, he is but a car enthusiast and too old fashioned. Too stuck in his bucket seat. No good for nuthin' else. A new generation needs to step in, take over, and help bring Toyota into the digital era. This is interesting, because it is not entirely clear what he means by this. My assumption here is that Koji Sato, who will pick up the baton, will also pick up the work on making Toyota more of a mobility business. That is, sustainable mobility for the masses. It is something Toyota has mentioned for years now, and shown many ideas for how this might manifest itself in more concrete terms. I think, this means that we can expect to see yet more concepts around public mobility - rental cars and unmanned transportation. Much more automation and further developments of energy storage technology (also known as, batteries). The whole concept of car ownership will change too. It will be rare to own a car, lease a car. You just get some transportation (think electric scooter 🛵 kind of rental). It could be a car, a box on wheels.   

As someone who loves driving, fast, on the limits, on track, it is with some trepidation and despair I see the abdication of the current automotive icon. However, I also understand that the majority of car drivers are not necessarily like me, and that I too, occasionally, do enjoy travelling in comfort and economy, with minimal environmental impact. Hey, I would not even mind being driven to work one day while I work or take a nap. Therefore, things must move on.

Mind you, just because we change power source, and some cars are completely automated, should not mean we cannot make and have cars that are still a joy to drive. Built for the thrill. For now, I shall find solace in the words of incoming Koji-san, while I zoom around in my 80's MR2: 

  “If Morizo is someone who loves driving cars, I am someone who loves making cars that make drivers smile.”

 

Here's to hope.

[Eddie G]

21 minutes ago, APS said:

Thanks for bringing this up Eddie! I had completely missed these news. 

To answer your question, I'm guessing yes and no. (Crazy speculations, I know!) But hear me out. Yes, Toyoda-san is a well known car enthusiast, and petrol head alike. We can indeed thank him for making efforts to shake off some of the dusty, bland image that the brand had gathered over the decades. Toyota's are now cars that not only make sense, they can actually talk to your heart. I mean, compare the current Corolla with previous versions, the Yaris. The C-HR was a bit of a curveball. Just look at it - it's cool. Then we have the halo models; the GR Yaris, GR 86, and, I guess, the GR Supra. The GR brand is definitely a direct result of Akio's lust for wheeling with fervour. 

According to Toyoda-san himself, he is but a car enthusiast and too old fashioned. Too stuck in his bucket seat. No good for nuthin' else. A new generation needs to step in, take over, and help bring Toyota into the digital era. This is interesting, because it is not entirely clear what he means by this. My assumption here is that Koji Sato, who will pick up the baton, will also pick up the work on making Toyota more of a mobility business. That is, sustainable mobility for the masses. It is something Toyota has mentioned for years now, and shown many ideas for how this might manifest itself in more concrete terms. I think, this means that we can expect to see yet more concepts around public mobility - rental cars and unmanned transportation. Much more automation and further developments of energy storage technology (also known as, batteries). The whole concept of car ownership will change too. It will be rare to own a car, lease a car. You just get some transportation (think electric scooter 🛵 kind of rental). It could be a car, a box on wheels.   

As someone who loves driving, fast, on the limits, on track, it is with some trepidation and despair I see the abdication of the current automotive icon. However, I also understand that the majority of car drivers are not necessarily like me, and that I too, occasionally, do enjoy travelling in comfort and economy, with minimal environmental impact. Hey, I would not even mind being driven to work one day while I work or take a nap. Therefore, things must move on.

Mind you, just because we change power source, and some cars are completely automated, should not mean we cannot make and have cars that are still a joy to drive. Built for the thrill. For now, I shall find solace in the words of incoming Koji-san, while I zoom around in my 80's MR2: 

  “If Morizo is someone who loves driving cars, I am someone who loves making cars that make drivers smile.”

 

Here's to hope.

Fingers 🤞 sounding ok and if not can always replace my Yaris with another MK4 Yaris 😁👍

[forkingabout]

10 hours ago, APS said:

The C-HR was a bit of a curveball. Just look at it - it's cool.

The C-HR has certainly found a niche spot in the market but still confuses a lot of people who just don't understand it & the non family friendly, non luggage hauling design.

 

[APS]

1 hour ago, forkingabout said:

The C-HR has certainly found a niche spot in the market but still confuses a lot of people who just don't understand it & the non family friendly, non luggage hauling design.

 

That is exactly the point. Toyota made some considered compromises in favour of style. This attracts customers who would otherwise never have considered a Toyota. 

[DC_Ms]

Akio Toyoda is stepping down as CEO of Toyota after 14 years to be replaced by Lexus and Gazu Racing boss Koji Sato from 1 April. The 66-year-old Toyoda will take on a new role as chairman of the car maker, founded by his grandfather.  (Autocar)

[FROSTYBALLS]

Similar topics merged.

[2toyos]

On 1/27/2023 at 10:04 PM, AJones said:

Well, other manufacturers have more EV models in their ranges and are selling them in higher, in some cases vastly higher volumes than Toyota, so simply judging the data you would have to say that at the moment Toyota is behind, based on certain objective measures.

Perhaps Toyota does have something up its sleeve, but to date its EVs have been ok but they haven't been in notably better than the competitors and it hasn't sold them in significant numbers. Other EV manufacturers have all had slow ramping up of production as they've worked to grow battery supply, so the idea of any manufacturer coming out with some game changing model, in large volumes very quickly, seems unlikely just from the difficulties in sourcing the volumes of batteries needed.

The bit I've found surprising about Toyota's strategy, given its initial lead with hybrids, was why it hasn't launched more plug-in hybrids. They played to Toyota strength in hybrids and don't need as much battery capacity while still allowing a shift to electric driving without the range issues. But other manufacturers have got ahead of Toyota here as well.

Toyota are against EV, they have always said it is not the future, why invest billions into a failed/flawed product/infrastructure, already it's costing more to recharge EV's then fill up a Yaris with superior range and overall less impact on the environment, I believe Toyota is looking at a lifelong product instead of a stopgap to make some non important people that have car columns or magazines, or uneducated environmentalists happy

 

[Cyker]

It's not that they're against EV, they just don't think the technology is ready and I totally agree.

I had similar opinions to their reasoning for not entering the market - It's a massive sink of lithium that only gives a few expensive cars to the rich that can afford them.

The average EV needs 40-60kWh of Lithium Battery to get between 100-200miles of range, and costs more than most people can afford.

My Yaris, which can get 400-500 miles of range, costs maybe half of the EV, and is less damaging to the roads because it weighs far less, has a 0.7kWh Battery.

That means you could make over 80 Mk4s with the lithium it takes to make 1 EV!

If the concern is tail-pipe emissions, I feel that replacing 80 old ICE cars with Mk4's would be overall better than replacing 1 of them with an EV.

 

Toyota's plan all along is to transition to hybrids first, and then EVs, once the technology matures. They're been heavily researching into solid-state cells, which should bring range up to what I would consider acceptable, rather than the joke range that's being touted as 'long-range' at the moment, and there are lots of potentially promising chemistries being worked on like sodium-ion and lithium-sulphur-sugar  

The Battery is the one achilles heel of EVs, but it seems like everyone's rushed ahead and built the house before the foundation, while Toyota are taking it slow and steady and building the foundation first.

One thing I'm a bit worried about is all the lithium that is being gobbled up on these short-range land-barges - At the moment there is no economically viable way to recycle lithium cells to the extent that lead-acid (i.e. 12v) batteries can be recycled. Lead acid is over 90% recyclable, while lithium cells just get re-used but with lower and lower ratings stuck on them until they're unusable, then they either get thrown in land fill or shredded and subjected to either very toxic chemicals or a very energy intensive process to reclaim mostly the nickel, as the lithium content is so small that extracting it would be a loss (at least at current prices, but it's going up a lot so that may change!), so the few companies that do genuinely recycle them don't even bother. So we're really depleting our lithium supply on vehicles that will, hopefully, be obsolete within the decade, and we don't even know if we'll be able to recover any it for when we need it when it comes time to build better EVs!

 

[Eddie G]

4 hours ago, 2toyos said:

Toyota are against EV, they have always said it is not the future, why invest billions into a failed/flawed product/infrastructure, already it's costing more to recharge EV's then fill up a Yaris with superior range and overall less impact on the environment, I believe Toyota is looking at a lifelong product instead of a stopgap to make some non important people that have car columns or magazines, or uneducated environmentalists happy

 

Toyoda didn't seem a fan of EV either was that the main reason for him moving i wonder?

[Cyker]

I would like to know why he moved too... I honestly think he brought back a golden age for Toyota; A lot of us long-time Toyota fans have long lamented the old days when they had cars like the Supra and MR2 and even the Celicas, and while their cars have been solid they have been pretty boring.

But then, at a time when everyone's making fat lumbering SUVs and EVs, Toyota of all companies out of the blue put out a whole load of genuinely good performance cars!

It still cracks me up when hard core racer types gush about a *Yaris* of all things  

But even with the new cars, he's proved you can have solid reliable cars that are also fun to drive and look good! And they've got the balance spot on, where a lot of other manufacturers have badly misjudged IMHO. (Seriously, someone needs to be there to take the pencil/stylus/mouse away from the designers of some of those other cars until they learn when to stop!!)

I really hope this change doesn't mean they'll go back...

If the guy stepping in is the guy who signed-off on the designs of the newer Lexus models, then I must admit I'm a bit worried...  

[AJones]

2 hours ago, Cyker said:

I had similar opinions to their reasoning for not entering the market - It's a massive sink of lithium that only gives a few expensive cars to the rich that can afford them.

The average EV needs 40-60kWh of Lithium battery to get between 100-200miles of range, and costs more than most people can afford.

Hybrids are not low cost though and for the same price as a Corolla hybrid you can buy an MG4 with a 60kWh Battery. The cost difference is reducing. If you look at China they have small, low range City type EVs at very low prices.

2 hours ago, Cyker said:

If the concern is tail-pipe emissions, I feel that replacing 80 old ICE cars with Mk4's would be overall better than replacing 1 of them with an EV.

In practice it doesn't work like that, its the EV manufacturers which are investing in cell manufacturing capacity to expand production. If people stop buying EVs it doesn't mean that the supply of hybrid cars increases.

[APS]

 

On 2/1/2023 at 7:24 PM, Cyker said:

I would like to know why he moved too... I honestly think he brought back a golden age for Toyota;

I concur! For someone who is allegedly "old-fashioned", Akio breathed some fresh life in to what had become a very rigid, conservative, and grey-blob of a corporation. There was a vision. 

 

On 2/1/2023 at 7:24 PM, Cyker said:

If the guy stepping in is the guy who signed-off on the designs of the newer Lexus models, then I must admit I'm a bit worried...

Indeed, and I think he knows there is a fear of losing that focus on spirit. Hence, in Koji's own words...

On 1/28/2023 at 12:29 AM, APS said:

“If Morizo is someone who loves driving cars, I am someone who loves making cars that make drivers smile.”

But words are words. Proof is in the pudding. If Sato-san wants my instant respect - make the S-FR happen! 😎