Brake problem on new Corolla

[AndrueC]

On 2/16/2023 at 7:44 AM, Dylanfan said:

I find it strange that the brake hold system has to be set to on after each engine start. The system works so well, why isn’t it automatically set, or am I missing something?

Agreed. On a similar note why do we have to switch the Cruise Control on every time? At least for the latter my Jazz had a toggle switch so you could leave it on permanently and only had to enable/disable it as required.

Then again the CVT Jazz had a stupid feature which meant that the idle-stop functionality required you to keep your foot on the foot brake or the engine would prematurely restart. With the manual once the car was in neutral you could release all the pedals.

[Gerhard_Corolla]

What an unfortunate play of events for everyone involved, hopefully both cars will get repaired soon enough and return to serve their owners!

 

I've experienced strange situations with the Hold function at stop lights, each and every time it was because I did not followed the correct process: stop at your spot, engage the Hold system, press the brake pedal again, disengage the system by pressing a second time the Hold button, and only then start accelerating. When I didn't engage the brakes again and just start accelerating, the car always 'jumps' a little bit before receiving a lot of messages that the Hold system is activated, but you can start driving nonetheless. I've noticed that the jump's intensity was related with how much I pressed the gas pedal, but I've certainly not pressed the gas pedal so hard as to possibly cause a jump similar to what the OP experienced. I know that today, because of safety and the quality of materials, even small impacts can cause wreckage, and of course it didn't helped that the other car was a taller vehicle, but the jump/acceleration experienced for sure wasn't small. 

 

It's either complete failure of basically every Toyota system involved with the accelerator or driver error, whatever the case it may be is a nasty business for all parties.

 

 

 

[Dylanfan]

4 hours ago, Gerhard_Corolla said:

What an unfortunate play of events for everyone involved, hopefully both cars will get repaired soon enough and return to serve their owners!

 

I've experienced strange situations with the Hold function at stop lights, each and every time it was because I did not followed the correct process: stop at your spot, engage the Hold system, press the brake pedal again, disengage the system by pressing a second time the Hold button, and only then start accelerating. When I didn't engage the brakes again and just start accelerating, the car always 'jumps' a little bit before receiving a lot of messages that the Hold system is activated, but you can start driving nonetheless. I've noticed that the jump's intensity was related with how much I pressed the gas pedal, but I've certainly not pressed the gas pedal so hard as to possibly cause a jump similar to what the OP experienced. I know that today, because of safety and the quality of materials, even small impacts can cause wreckage, and of course it didn't helped that the other car was a taller vehicle, but the jump/acceleration experienced for sure wasn't small. 

 

It's either complete failure of basically every Toyota system involved with the accelerator or driver error, whatever the case it may be is a nasty business for all parties.

 

 

 

I don’t quite understand this. I set the hold button at any time, stopped or moving and then never touch it again until the next journey. The system works automatically after it’s been set.

[TonyHSD]

Imo if you can disable this brake hold function it will be the best.
Just hold on brake pedal while stationary then release the brake and the car will start slowly to creep forward, no mistakes or very low risk, old school.  Also parking brake auto function better be disabled, use parking brake manually when necessary only as many times when parked on level ground the P position of the gear selector it’s simply enough to hold the car securely. 

[DC_Ms]

7 minutes ago, TonyHSD said:

Imo if you can disable this brake hold function it will be the best.
Just hold on brake pedal while stationary then release the brake and the car will start slowly to creep forward, no mistakes or very low risk, old school.  Also parking brake auto function better be disabled, use parking brake manually when necessary only as many times when parked on level ground the P position of the gear selector it’s simply enough to hold the car securely. 

What would be the disadvantages to use the auto parking brake ? Thanks

[TonyHSD]

2 minutes ago, DC_Ms said:

What would be the disadvantages to use the auto parking brake ? Thanks

No disadvantages unless in freezing cold and you have soaking wet wheels parked with parking brake ON and then next morning you find out that everything is frozen solid and you can’t drive off , however this can rarely happen in uk. It’s just my personal preference. 
Another good practice where manual engage of parking brake can be useful is when parking on a slope., hill road.
 I follow this procedure and let the mass of the car been held by the parking brake instead of the parking pole of the transmission P. 
When you stop the car with foot on the brake engage the parking brake manually, select N , release foot brake- the car will move slightly, switch to P and turn off the car. 👍

[Gerhard_Corolla]

1 hour ago, Dylanfan said:

I don’t quite understand this. I set the hold button at any time, stopped or moving and then never touch it again until the next journey. The system works automatically after it’s been set.

Yes, that's how the system works, but it's "laggy" and every time I accelerate, the car jumps a little bit after disengages the Hold system...  I prefer to just use it in long stop lights or super heavy traffic.

 

19 minutes ago, TonyHSD said:

No disadvantages unless in freezing cold and you have soaking wet wheels parked with parking brake ON and then next morning you find out that everything is frozen solid and you can’t drive off , however this can rarely happen in uk. It’s just my personal preference. 
Another good practice where manual engage of parking brake can be useful is when parking on a slope., hill road.
 I follow this procedure and let the mass of the car been held by the parking brake instead of the parking pole of the transmission P. 
When you stop the car with foot on the brake engage the parking brake manually, select N , release foot brake- the car will move slightly, switch to P and turn off the car. 👍

Good advice, I'm going to try to use the parking brake in manual mode only from now on!

 

I've experienced several times when you've already selected D, release the brake pedal, and then there's a loud noice, produced when the automatic parking brake releases itself from a frozen state. I was surprised how often happens in German winters...

 

It's unbelievable under how much stress these vehicles can perform! I feel bad every time I see the car under 40cm of snow, deiced it, and then when you start it, does it without any hesitation whatsoever. Reliability these days is insane!

[Cyker]

Are you lot talking about the EPB or the Brake Hold?

I'm getting a bit confused reading the posts as people seem to be mixing up the terms, but they are two completely different things!

The Brake Hold is a button and toggles the Brake Hold Mode on or off - What this is is basically a virtual foot that holds down the hydraulic brake pedal for you when you bring the car to a *complete* stop and let go of it. All 4 wheels are braked when this is engaged.

The EPB is a rocker switch that is functionally like a handbrake and engages/disengages the screw-mechanism on the rear brake pads to clamp them. Only the rear wheels are braked when this is engaged.

If the car is in D, both of these will automatically disengage when you press the accelerator (at least on the newer cars - Not sure about the older ones!).

The Brake Hold is *much* faster to disengage as it just releases hydraulic pressure and you're off; The EPB is slower as it has to unwind the screws to release the brake pads, so if you accelerate too quickly, the rear wheels may drag or grind against the pads for a split-second as you'll start moving before they have been fully released. Also, the car will continuously strain against the rear brakes if it is in D with the EPB engaged until it is released.

I don't use the EPB at all while driving, it's too small to feel for, it's slow to engage/disengage and just a general PITA to use compared to a normal handbrake. I just have it on automatic, so if I actually need to stop for a while, I put the car in P and the EPB engages automatically.

Regarding leaving the car in P without the EPB engaged, I'm not sure if it's such a great idea as the whole weight of the car will be held by the Parking Pawl, which is basically a small arm of metal that gets jammed into a locking gear in the hybrid transmission. You can for sure get away with it on a flat road, but there were enough posts back in the day of Mk2 Prius owners snapping theirs that I wouldn't feel comfortable leaving it in P without the parking brake engaged as well!

 

[TonyHSD]

If you ask me I will disable completely brake hold and will set parking brake to operate only in manual mode, with button. 👍

[Dylanfan]

On 2/22/2023 at 7:30 PM, Cyker said:

Are you lot talking about the EPB or the Brake Hold?

I'm getting a bit confused reading the posts as people seem to be mixing up the terms, but they are two completely different things!

The Brake Hold is a button and toggles the Brake Hold Mode on or off - What this is is basically a virtual foot that holds down the hydraulic brake pedal for you when you bring the car to a *complete* stop and let go of it. All 4 wheels are braked when this is engaged.

The EPB is a rocker switch that is functionally like a handbrake and engages/disengages the screw-mechanism on the rear brake pads to clamp them. Only the rear wheels are braked when this is engaged.

If the car is in D, both of these will automatically disengage when you press the accelerator (at least on the newer cars - Not sure about the older ones!).

The Brake Hold is *much* faster to disengage as it just releases hydraulic pressure and you're off; The EPB is slower as it has to unwind the screws to release the brake pads, so if you accelerate too quickly, the rear wheels may drag or grind against the pads for a split-second as you'll start moving before they have been fully released. Also, the car will continuously strain against the rear brakes if it is in D with the EPB engaged until it is released.

I don't use the EPB at all while driving, it's too small to feel for, it's slow to engage/disengage and just a general PITA to use compared to a normal handbrake. I just have it on automatic, so if I actually need to stop for a while, I put the car in P and the EPB engages automatically.

Regarding leaving the car in P without the EPB engaged, I'm not sure if it's such a great idea as the whole weight of the car will be held by the Parking Pawl, which is basically a small arm of metal that gets jammed into a locking gear in the hybrid transmission. You can for sure get away with it on a flat road, but there were enough posts back in the day of Mk2 Prius owners snapping theirs that I wouldn't feel comfortable leaving it in P without the parking brake engaged as well!

 

I agree with all this, didn’t know that the EPB only held the rear wheels. I find the brake hold system to be excellent apart from having to activate it at first engine start. Other than on steep hills (not many of those in south Lincolnshire) I never use the EPB other than automatically in park. I never feel any resistance when moving off from the park hold position, it just releases imperceptibly.

[Sonny1980]

On 2/14/2023 at 8:46 PM, TonyHSD said:

The issue with Toyota hybrids brakes is that when slowing down quickly and you hit a pothole and one or more tyres loose grip the car brake system becomes weak and the only way to gain full stopping power again is to fully release brake pedal and press again, something that is not first instinct to a non trained driver. Usually on other cars when hit something and abs is activated the driver will continue to hold the brake pedal firmly and the car will gain stopping power again it that’s not exactly the case with Toyota hybrids. 
Toyota hybrids does not like to loose grip in two major scenarios:

1. When under having acceleration-  damper clutch can slip and trigger hybrid system malfunction error 

2. Abs and ASC can let you have weak brakes and you need to fully release the brake pedal and press again otherwise your brake distance will increase  
However what we seem has happened to the op as unfortunate event is only possible if brake pedal was not pressed. 
When brake pedal is pressed the front brakes has direct connection with the pedal and not electronic therefore no possibility of a software glitch or computer error.

 

I had noticed that before a few times, while braking to slow down a bit, if you suddenly hit a pothole, it would decrease considerably the braking power. I always found this a bit strange but it was never a problem... Yesterday I almost rear ended another car because it did that when I actually needed to stop and not just to slow down! I was a couple of inches away from hitting the other car...

Just found your comment searching online about this issue and I'm surprised I'm not seeing more comments about this issue. WTF was Toyota thinking?! Do you know if this also happens with the current Corolla or with Lexus?

[Talking Hoarse]

1 hour ago, Sonny1980 said:

I had noticed that before a few times, while braking to slow down a bit, if you suddenly hit a pothole, it would decrease considerably the braking power. I always found this a bit strange but it was never a problem... Yesterday I almost rear ended another car because it did that when I actually needed to stop and not just to slow down! I was a couple of inches away from hitting the other car...

Just found your comment searching online about this issue and I'm surprised I'm not seeing more comments about this issue. WTF was Toyota thinking?! Do you know if this also happens with the current Corolla or with Lexus?

Not noticed this braking phenomena. 

However ....  I would normally try to ease any braking if travelling over bumps or over a pothole I cant avoid so that front suspension is less compressed - ie so it has maximum available travel.  

[AndrueC]

On 2/22/2023 at 3:57 PM, Dylanfan said:

I don’t quite understand this. I set the hold button at any time, stopped or moving and then never touch it again until the next journey. The system works automatically after it’s been set.

Same here. Also never have to touch the Park button alongside it - the handbrake operates automatically for me.

[TonyHSD]

3 hours ago, Sonny1980 said:

I had noticed that before a few times, while braking to slow down a bit, if you suddenly hit a pothole, it would decrease considerably the braking power. I always found this a bit strange but it was never a problem... Yesterday I almost rear ended another car because it did that when I actually needed to stop and not just to slow down! I was a couple of inches away from hitting the other car...

Just found your comment searching online about this issue and I'm surprised I'm not seeing more comments about this issue. WTF was Toyota thinking?! Do you know if this also happens with the current Corolla or with Lexus?

Hi, 

I am not sure about other hybrids but I have experienced that brake power lost in Auris gen 1 currently I drive, and in Prius gen 3 and Prius plus. 
Some other members reported that this is also present in the later models. We had come to a conclusion that it is happening because of the car tc and abs that disables the regenerative braking and the only brake power available remains front brakes. I think rear brakes also been disabled too when that happens but need to be tested to confirm for sure. I noticed that to be able to gain full stopping power again you will need to release the brake pedal fully and press again, definitely something that it’s not natural and only a trained driver or someone who is aware of that thing can do it. 

I agree with Ed and his comment but sometimes it is not possible to slow down smoothly and before the initial complete stop and you push the brakes more then hit a pothole and the car jumps forward very uncomfortably. 
I have some regular routes that involve step downhill and horrible road surface, I use B mode and keep slower speed plus longer distance between me and the car on the front. 👍

[Cyker]

8 hours ago, Sonny1980 said:

I had noticed that before a few times, while braking to slow down a bit, if you suddenly hit a pothole, it would decrease considerably the braking power. I always found this a bit strange but it was never a problem... Yesterday I almost rear ended another car because it did that when I actually needed to stop and not just to slow down! I was a couple of inches away from hitting the other car...

Just found your comment searching online about this issue and I'm surprised I'm not seeing more comments about this issue. WTF was Toyota thinking?! Do you know if this also happens with the current Corolla or with Lexus?

That sounds like it's the ABS - It was a very common issue I had with the Mk1 and Mk2 Yaris (obvs non-hybrid) when braking fairly firmly and then going over a pot-hole or wet manhole/drain cover.

The system seems much improved in the Mk4 Yaris, but in the older ones it was literally like you'd lost half your braking force and the car felt like it lurched forwards, making the car feel like it was accelerating instead of braking!

Had a few bottom-clenching moments where I'd been caught out with that! Not much can be done as the way ABS works is by pulsing the brakes on and off very very quickly - This means by design there will be less braking force available depending on what the on/off duty-cycle is.

I'm not sure what they've changed in the Mk4 as the loss of braking force is far less pronounced - On the old system, the ABS worked great on slippery surfaces but on non-slippery surfaces there was a very big loss of braking force if it triggered when it didn't need to; The new one seems to be able to give near-maximum available braking force of whatever surface you're on (Less on slippery surfaces, more on dry surfaces) and works far more like proponents of ABS advertise. I've not had to do the very scary quickly-release-the-brake-to-stop-the-ABS-then-slam-on-the-brakes-again-and-hope-I-was-quick-enough-to-not-crash 2-step dance in the Mk4! (The braking force of the Mk4 is almost painfully good!!   )

Also, don't worry about whether the regen braking was not active, that's a red herring and won't affect the ability of the car to stop quickly - The friction brakes may look under-sized but they can easily provide enough clamping force to lock the wheels up, so they will have no trouble stopping the car very quickly even on their own! (The small size just means they won't be able to do it repeatedly without overheating, but once? Definitely!)

[YarisHybrid2016]

.

Ooops. I already replied.

[TonyHSD]

10 hours ago, Cyker said:

That sounds like it's the ABS - It was a very common issue I had with the Mk1 and Mk2 Yaris (obvs non-hybrid) when braking fairly firmly and then going over a pot-hole or wet manhole/drain cover.

The system seems much improved in the Mk4 Yaris, but in the older ones it was literally like you'd lost half your braking force and the car felt like it lurched forwards, making the car feel like it was accelerating instead of braking!

Had a few bottom-clenching moments where I'd been caught out with that! Not much can be done as the way ABS works is by pulsing the brakes on and off very very quickly - This means by design there will be less braking force available depending on what the on/off duty-cycle is.

I'm not sure what they've changed in the Mk4 as the loss of braking force is far less pronounced - On the old system, the ABS worked great on slippery surfaces but on non-slippery surfaces there was a very big loss of braking force if it triggered when it didn't need to; The new one seems to be able to give near-maximum available braking force of whatever surface you're on (Less on slippery surfaces, more on dry surfaces) and works far more like proponents of ABS advertise. I've not had to do the very scary quickly-release-the-brake-to-stop-the-ABS-then-slam-on-the-brakes-again-and-hope-I-was-quick-enough-to-not-crash 2-step dance in the Mk4! (The braking force of the Mk4 is almost painfully good!!   )

Also, don't worry about whether the regen braking was not active, that's a red herring and won't affect the ability of the car to stop quickly - The friction brakes may look under-sized but they can easily provide enough clamping force to lock the wheels up, so they will have no trouble stopping the car very quickly even on their own! (The small size just means they won't be able to do it repeatedly without overheating, but once? Definitely!)

That’s what you explained is correct but here with these hybrids gen 3 the issue it’s not from the abs or brake discs size, it’s something else, perhaps the electronic brake pump and brake force distribution. 
Because when you hit the pothole while brakes are in use the normal abs is activated and then the car is like total lost not only stopping power but also the assistance, you have to push very hard the brakes to make them work, which leads me to believe that rear axle brakes are deactivated.
They work electronically only where front ones has direct hydraulic operation by the brake master cylinder.
My theory is that when the car loose grip ABS activated at certain speeds and brake loads the car brake system electronically disable rear brakes and regenerative braking leaving driver with only front brakes stopping power without assistance. It could be a software issue, or just a design fault or anything. I don’t know but I know it always been there and not only on my car but all from this era. 
Modern cars uses rear brakes as much as front ones and tend to wear them out faster. This is another reason to believe when the car hit a pothole , disables regen and rear brakes and leave you only with front brakes and make you feel unsafe. 

[ann100]

been having brake issues since the first month of purchase on my 2006 Corolla...as did yesterday.  Taking it to the dealership over and over was useless when first bought...Mechanics currently seem to be chasing their tales trying to locate the cause..runs fine then out of the blue no brakes at all.  Good luck with your newer model

[TonyHSD]

11 hours ago, ann100 said:

been having brake issues since the first month of purchase on my 2006 Corolla...as did yesterday.  Taking it to the dealership over and over was useless when first bought...Mechanics currently seem to be chasing their tales trying to locate the cause..runs fine then out of the blue no brakes at all.  Good luck with your newer model

What Corolla is that, 2023 model? 
 

[FROSTYBALLS]

3 minutes ago, TonyHSD said:

What Corolla is that, 2023 model? 

The member said it was a 2006 Corolla .....