Alternator fixable?

[socratez]

Hi, I got the Battery warning light on. Battery is fairly new (Sept'21) and been tested OK and recharged. Alternator does not seem to provide good voltage (~13.2V with engine on), so I think it is the culprit.

I did the basic multimeter tests, i.e., checked voltages and ground to eliminate possible wiring/contact issues and everything seems in order and within expected ranges. One thing I did not check thoroughly was the fuse: ALT seems to be fused by the large white-boxed fuse, which I cannot remove (any ideas how?)

I wonder if the alternator is serviceable, as many have suggested in other threads here. The original alternator is the Denso 104210-2181 (Toyota 27060-0T051). I could not locate brushes or repair kits for this model. Any idea why? I read somewhere that some alternators require their brushes soldered on, so maybe too much of a hassle? I'd like to give it a go before writing the alternator off (and rather not spend the £200-£300 if I could avoid it).

Many thanks for any guidance.

[avetoy]

Would this be any helpful? 

https://toyota.epc-data.com/avensis/zrt272w/185349/engine/1903/

 

If you ask the brushes from Mr. T, they probably say no at first...

That happened to me, but I demanded a second opinion and then the brushes were found. It was diesel T27, but could it be different with petrol models?

[socratez]

Many thanks for the lead.

I note this diagram is referring to frame ZRT272, i.e., larger engines 3ZR-XXX, while I'm on a 2010 model (2ZR-FAE). Can I assume alternators are same/compatible? (27060 on mine vs. 27020 in the link above?)

[avetoy]

2 minutes ago, socratez said:

Can I assume alternators are same/compatible?

I can´t see why not? Does not make sense to use  so many different alternators...

[APS]

The brush holder appears to be the same: 27370-31220 (at least on the models I looked at)

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/173354897367

 

 

[Gerg]

Assuming all ideas are appreciated, then here's an unlikely one...

As much for my own interest, at what time did 'smart' alternators become commonplace?

A mate's Suzuki Swift (2016 1.2 petrol) had a flat Battery recently.  When checking the charge voltages an hour or so subsequently, using a cigarette-socket voltmeter, the charge rates were very low when the car was static, even though I'd anticipated low alternator output, because of a 'predicted' smart alternator.

As soon as the car was moving, even at walking speed, and especially on the overrun, the voltages were back to what you would traditionally expect.  My mate was gob-smacked at the readings.  (A new Battery sorted that one, and I confirmed with a load test that the old Battery was worn out.)

How many miles has the car done?  It's an age since I've looked inside an alternator, and mileage isn't always a clue as to how quick brushes wear, I'd guess, but I'd think 150,000 miles was reasonable to expect from a pair of brushes in normal use?

[socratez]

13 minutes ago, Gerg said:

 

As soon as the car was moving, even at walking speed, and especially on the overrun, the voltages were back to what you would traditionally expect.  My mate was gob-smacked at the readings.  (A new battery sorted that one, and I confirmed with a load test that the old battery was worn out.)

 

Not an expert myself, but I'd say alternators work best at higher revs, hence all voltage tests should be done at 1,500-2,000 rpms.

 

16 minutes ago, Gerg said:

How many miles has the car done?  It's an age since I've looked inside an alternator, and mileage isn't always a clue as to how quick brushes wear, I'd guess, but I'd think 150,000 miles was reasonable to expect from a pair of brushes in normal use?

I'm at 75k. ~100k miles is a ballpark figure for their expected life, however I wouldn't be surprised if mine has worn the brushes out (2 drivers doing frequent short trips per day, school drop offs, local shopping, etc.)

 

Many thanks @avetoy and @APS, your comments led me to this, which seems compatible:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/273752731286

[Roy124]

Ritze, do you really want to do it yourself? 

Years ago I had an alternator failed and found a pair of engineers in a workshop with the wonderful name of Short Circuit. 

They fitted a refurbished one that worked fine. When they weren't fitting alternators to cars they were refurbishing ones they had exchanged.  Good business plan. 

Why don't you try and get a refurbished one, it will have a guarantee. 

[socratez]

Thanks @Roy124, it's a cost issue at this stage :)

I'm hoping it will end up being cheaper to obtain the £12 brush cup first and have a go at refurbishing it myself. I believe I've ruled out the rectifier already as the diode measurements seem correct.

The alternator in my Avensis is very accessible, so I thought I'd try my fat hands on it. You're right, I've also spotted several online shops offering refurbished ones, at around £100-£130. I guess I should add labour to this and the hassle of getting the car to a local garage, etc. There are also non-DENSO OEMs starting at £150. That would be my next stop if my own repair is not successful.

[flash22]

A quick look on the epc shows a newer part No. 27060-37051

usually it's the reg and brushes that go, but you need to inspect the comm for wear

 

If budget is an issue, get a used one

[Mooly]

8 hours ago, Gerg said:

As much for my own interest, at what time did 'smart' alternators become commonplace?

A mate's Suzuki Swift (2016 1.2 petrol) had a flat battery recently.  When checking the charge voltages an hour or so subsequently, using a cigarette-socket voltmeter, the charge rates were very low when the car was static, even though I'd anticipated low alternator output, because of a 'predicted' smart alternator.

I have no idea but would guess around the mid 2000's onwards. 

You might find this interesting.

https://www.toyotaownersclub.com/forums/topic/186724-stop-start/?do=findComment&comment=1492865

 

[2009joe]

i changed my brushes in my vw group car was a real easy job to do . plus i did the same to my starter motor as well when it was going out that was a real easy job also i saved alot of money doing it myself also compared to what a shop here was going to charge me 

[socratez]

A final update on this:

I removed and opened the alternator. Found one diode contact had been detached. This contradicts my earlier finding that the rectifier was OK, as my diode testing while the altr was still in the car seemed OK.

I am guessing the diode contact failed because I set the A/C to full blast during the early mornings a couple of weeks ago to defrost the car while the temp outside was -4. This, plus other accessories (lights, bluetooth) would have put high demand on the alternator.

New rectifier ordered in, soldered and kit back in operation. Total cost ~£30 + the expense of own time. But the satisfaction is immense :)

Thanks everyone for the hints.

[2009joe]

5 hours ago, socratez said:

A final update on this:

I removed and opened the alternator. Found one diode contact had been detached. This contradicts my earlier finding that the rectifier was OK, as my diode testing while the altr was still in the car seemed OK.

I am guessing the diode contact failed because I set the A/C to full blast during the early mornings a couple of weeks ago to defrost the car while the temp outside was -4. This, plus other accessories (lights, bluetooth) would have put high demand on the alternator.

New rectifier ordered in, soldered and kit back in operation. Total cost ~£30 + the expense of own time. But the satisfaction is immense :)

Thanks everyone for the hints.

what you mean rectifier was that the brushes you put in new ones and soldered a new dioed in also. plus was the brushes to buy £30  i cant see my brushes to buy online ive looked up my 2014 data sheet on the altintator and the part number of my brushes to which nothing came up 

[socratez]

14 hours ago, 2009joe said:

what you mean rectifier was that the brushes you put in new ones and soldered a new dioed in also. plus was the brushes to buy £30  i cant see my brushes to buy online ive looked up my 2014 data sheet on the altintator and the part number of my brushes to which nothing came up 

@2009joe no, I thought it would be the brushes as someone else suggested above, and bought this cup (£11.50, which fits perfectly, but didn't use it in the end):

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/273752730060

But it wasn't the brushes. As the diodes were blown I bought a new rectifier which I soldered myself. Here is the supplier

https://as-pl.com/en/p/ARC6042

many eBayers selling the part online, search for ARC6042...

[2009joe]

12 hours ago, socratez said:

@2009joe no, I thought it would be the brushes as someone else suggested above, and bought this cup (£11.50, which fits perfectly, but didn't use it in the end):

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/273752730060

But it wasn't the brushes. As the diodes were blown I bought a new rectifier which I soldered myself. Here is the supplier

https://as-pl.com/en/p/ARC6042

many eBayers selling the part online, search for ARC6042...

class how you know what rectifier you needed as im not sure what one i need if mine ever gives out i might buy a part like this and brushes just to have incase as these give bother and well i changed my last ones 

[Derek.w]

If you unlucky and need a diode some have a code/type number printed on them and the circuit board may also have a part number printed on it.

[2009joe]

16 minutes ago, Derek.w said:

If you unlucky and need a diode some have a code/type number printed on them and the circuit board may also have a part number printed on it.

did you have a real hard time getting it off as i think with my 2014 2.od4d the alternator is behind the bottom part of my engine 😞

[APS]

On 2/9/2023 at 1:34 PM, socratez said:

Total cost ~£30 + the expense of own time. But the satisfaction is immense 🙂

Thanks everyone for the hints.

That satisfaction is in fact priceless. Nicely done! 

And many thanks for taking the time to follow up.

[Jim-p]

On 2/10/2023 at 10:20 PM, 2009joe said:

did you have a real hard time getting it off as i think with my 2014 2.od4d the alternator is behind the bottom part of my engine 😞

I had to get mine done at 100k km. Paid 120e to get the original rebuilt and fitted by an auto electrician. Yes, I think a drive shaft or something has to move to get at it, so it's awkward. You'd need a lift by right. I was happy with 120e as Mr T was quoting circa 500e for a refurbished fitted.

[Seb_90]

Hi all,

I am planning to rebuild my alternator and replace the REGULATOR SUB-ASSY GENERATOR W/BRUSH (27702-0D010) as it is usually the first part to go and I have an Europe trip coming up.

My original alternator is Bosch 14V 90A (27060-0D140-A) however I can't find that regulator for this particular model. Has anyone had any luck rebuilding this model?

[2009joe]

1 hour ago, Seb_90 said:

Hi all,

I am planning to rebuild my alternator and replace the REGULATOR SUB-ASSY GENERATOR W/BRUSH (27702-0D010) as it is usually the first part to go and I have an Europe trip coming up.

My original alternator is Bosch 14V 90A (27060-0D140-A) however I can't find that regulator for this particular model. Has anyone had any luck rebuilding this model?

by chance would this guy have any parts for it i know he dose parts to rebuld these cars starter motors 

 

http://www.repairkitsuk.com/kits-for-sale/

Carl Dawes
RepairkitsUK
Office - 01543 226222
Mobile - 07500 197742
www.repairkitsuk.com
www.startermotorkits.com

[Seb_90]

22 hours ago, 2009joe said:

by chance would this guy have any parts for it i know he dose parts to rebuld these cars starter motors 

 

http://www.repairkitsuk.com/kits-for-sale/

Carl Dawes
RepairkitsUK
Office - 01543 226222
Mobile - 07500 197742
www.repairkitsuk.com
www.startermotorkits.com

I couldn't see anything about the alternator.

 

I did more research and found the right parts for my alternator:

F 00M 145 873 - BOSCH ALTERNATOR REGULATOR

NTN 6303 - LLU 17x47x14mm Rubber Sealed Deep Groove Ball Bearing

SKF 6003-2RSH - Radial Deep Groove Ball Bearing

 

Just need to figure it out if to do it yourself or pay someone as I've never replaced any bearing before.

[Seb_90]

I am thinking to buy a refurbished alternator from DENSO but i've heard they could be problems when downgrading from Bosch. Has anyone had an experience with that?