A different review.

[Roy124]

9 hours ago, Rhymes with Paris said:

Guinea pigs are a bit dodgy tbh, I have known a few, and a lot of them have borderline personality disorder, edging towards psychopathy.

At best they can chew a lot of fibrous material, and at worst they can rip your throat out, best handled with thick leather work gloves, and a healthy respect for rodent based mental health problems.

Hamsters too.  Younger daughter had two.  Didn't realise they are loners.  One day the thin athletic one had ripped the throat out of the fat lazy one. 

Both were buried with due ceremony. 

[Roy124]

Brother in Law has a Kuga PHEV; loves it. He will probably get something else next year as he changes cars frequently and is not wedded to one make.  His previous was Hyundai and. Mercedes before that. 

One thing that really appeals is a pop out door edge protector.  Remember when push fit ones with reflectors were all the rage?  They gathered dirt, scratched the paint, and led to discolouration.  They did more for the other car than for yours. 

[RobertR]

2 hours ago, Yugguy1970 said:

The Ford mild hybrids are fine they're just not mature enough yet so you really feel when the electric assistance comes on or off.  That said I've not driven any other mild hybrids so maybe they are all like that.

Ford borrows some hybrid tech from toyota....so no sure about the how mature is the system. Maybe it's some kind of previous generation or something...or maybe ford engineers do a firmware, that is not as good as toyota's.

[Yugguy1970]

1 hour ago, Roy124 said:

Brother in Law has a Kuga PHEV; loves it. He will probably get something else next year as he changes cars frequently and is not wedded to one make.  His previous was Hyundai and. Mercedes before that. 

One thing that really appeals is a pop out door edge protector.  Remember when push fit ones with reflectors were all the rage?  They gathered dirt, scratched the paint, and led to discolouration.  They did more for the other car than for yours. 

I had these on the 2019 Focus, great idea, but half the time they didn't retract.  Ford have some great ideas and the cars drive nice but their build quality is simply not as good as Toyota's.  On my Focus the centre aircon unit had a big raised edge where it wasn't fitted correctly against the dashboard.  The door seal protectors are still not riveted in, they just use double-sided tape.   At 6 months old my car had drooping seals same as my 2004 Focus had.  Both our 2020 Fiesta and 2019 Focus had to have leaking rear shocks replaced in the first 6 months too.

[TonyHSD]

Toyota hybrid technology simplifies the ice cars in general where all others hybrids make the ice car tech more complex, more expensive to maintain and with greater risk of potential failures. To all manufacturers seems it was easy to switch to full evs than copy Toyota technology and implement it into their products. Renault Nissan hybrids are the closest to Toyota currently but they use gears instead of power split device., their hybrids has the engine running most of the time and it’s a generator not the actual propeller., similar application is in Honda. I was after Hyundai  ioniq hybrid as my gf has an electric version and I like the car a lot, however once I took a drive in hybrid one and I am not interested anymore, plus the fact that the car has 6 gears gearbox with dct that cost over £3K to replace and its a wearable part decision was easily made, stay with Toyota. 👍

[YarisHybrid2016]

Exactly why I won't even look at another make of car.

"Mild hybrid" is a total cop-out. Some cars just stick electric motors on the rear wheels and leave the rest as conventional.

The Mitsubishi PHEV has a motor tacked onto the side of the gearbox with a seperate clutch, which seems to be the most common arrangement (my wife looked at the Renault Captur hybrid which also has this arrangement; after finding this out I persuaded her to move to the dark side... 👽 ).

[Cyker]

Yeah I don't consider mild hybrids to be hybrids any more than stop-start equipped cars.

Ford do have some great stuff; They've always had weirdly nice handling cars, and the heated windscreens are something I wish Toyota had as they make cleaning that early morning ice off your windscreen sooooooo much easier! They're just nice places to be in, and for what you get the cars are generally well priced.

Their main achilles heel has always been reliability and consistency - Ford (And Vauxhall) have always been one of the cheapest cars to repair because so many minor bits of them go wrong there are pattern parts all over the place because of the demand! Toyotas don't go wrong, but when they do it's often hard to get cheap parts as there isn't enough demand, and the parts are often far inferior to the Toyota parts, whereas with Ford some aftermarket parts are better than the originals  (At least in the past, not sure these days, but it's a bit moot since they seem to be pulling out of the market  )

Toyota are generally the least innovate manufacturer - Their modus operandi is continual evolution and improvement, which is why they tend to have the reputation for boring but reliable. They will come up with something new now and then, but then will iterate the heck out of it for years, while other manufactures are always trying out new things but not sticking with them for long enough to make them really good or 'value engineering' them to the point they don't work as originally intended.

The french companies have traditionally been the worst for this - They have so many awesome ideas that if they would only refine would be great, but it'll be on one car and then you'll never see it again. I sometimes think that if someone gathered up all the nutty ideas they've had over the years, fixed them so they worked properly, and put them in a car, it would be the best car in the world!  

 

[Max_Headroom]

1 hour ago, Cyker said:

Their main achilles heel has always been reliability and consistency - Ford (And Vauxhall) have always been one of the cheapest cars to repair because so many minor bits of them go wrong there are pattern parts all over the place because of the demand! Toyotas don't go wrong, but when they do it's often hard to get cheap parts as there isn't enough demand, and the parts are often far inferior to the Toyota parts, whereas with Ford some aftermarket parts are better than the originals

 

Ford and Vauxhall  have been using belt in oil for a while its going to end in tears for many when these cars have done a high mileage, i hope Toyota never follow this trend.

 

[Derek.w]

Citrone have at least one engine running belt in oil & it was failing well before the time/milage for changing a timing belt but I have heard no more after a improved belt was introduced.

[Cyker]

Someone else talked about this in another thread with French engines - Before that I didn't even know it was a thing!!

I don't get it, it's literally all the downsides of a chain and all the downsides of a belt - What are the advantages?!

I can only assume it's some emissions thing as all terrible life-shortening new car tech (EGR, DPF, GPF, DMF etc.) has been spurred by emissions.

At least Ford users won't have to worry about them for long seeing as Ford seem to be exiting the ICE market...

Thankfully I can't see Toyota going down that route - They're all about reliability and you can't beat the reliability of a chain (Except maybe with gear cams, but the only modern car I know of that uses gear-driven cams is that insane Gordon Murray T50 fan-car!  ). TBH I'm still shocked we haven't moved to a better system like pneumatic or magnetic valve actuation and are still using belt and chain driven camshafts! But with 2030 coming, not much point in spending R&D money to innovate there now...

 

[Puglet]

Agree, when we were looking at Peugeot 108, Aygo and C1 for my sister few years ago, my only insistence was it had to have the 1.0 Toyota engine, the 1.2 puretech was just too new for me, the exterior styling and colour was up to her. All this wet belt just sounded to much added complication and so it proved and also we had the 1.0 Toyota engine in our 107 for over 10 years which was trouble free, easy to work on and plenty of powerful enough and that's why we got the 107 in the first place cos toyotta engine, never had much faith in small french petrol engines!

Ironically they fitted the 1.2 engine to the posher 108 and C1 models as some sort of desirable must have and charged extra for it, so thankfully happy to save some money and get cheaper more proven engined model!

[anchorman]

What’s this mild hybrid bashing?   It’s a superb way of improving efficiency and it works.  It isn’t meant to drive the car like ours but it does a lot to improve ice efficiency.   

[Max_Headroom]

1 hour ago, Cyker said:

I don't get it, it's literally all the downsides of a chain and all the downsides of a belt - What are the advantages?!

I can only assume it's some emissions thing as all terrible life-shortening new car tech (EGR, DPF, GPF, DMF etc.) has been spurred by emissions.

 

Why are belts in oil used?

One decisive advantage of the BIO compared to chain drives is their 30% lower friction losses – and this is also noticeable in the fuel consumption and CO2 emissions of the vehicle. BIOs are made of rubber, so when they contact the metal, they produce a lot less noise than a rattling chain drive. However, one issue can really harm all drive mechanisms that run on oil: impurities in the oil and engine. 

[Cyker]

Well I guess that is an advantage vs chain drive.... but you know what also has a similar advantage? A normal belt!!! One that isn't in oil!!

In fact I'd wager the belt in oil has a higher friction than a normal belt due to the extra drag from the oil (Oil has a much higher viscosity than air!!)

All the advantages in that quote are the advantages of a normal dry belt vs a chain! Quieter, less mass/inertia, 'springy' so can absorb small shocks without being damaged etc.

 

1 hour ago, anchorman said:

What’s this mild hybrid bashing?   It’s a superb way of improving efficiency and it works.  It isn’t meant to drive the car like ours but it does a lot to improve ice efficiency.   

I wouldn't go that far... it's just a cheap half-assed way to bring CO2 levels down slightly on paper with minimal R&D but doesn't really improve efficiency all that much. Toyota has normal ICE engines that have the same efficiency ratings as other manufacturers mild hybrids!!

I mean, if that's all they want to do then fair enough, but what gets my goat is how they try and intimate that they're almost as good as a 'real' hybrid, when in reality they aren't even in the same league! Maybe it's because I have the Mk4 and it's made me a hybrid snob (I totally am now...), but it feels insulting that mild hybrids are allowed to even have the word Hybrid on them when what they have is basically a slightly beefed up starter motor!

 

[Hibird]

Some of the best and most exciting cars I have owned have been from Ford and my personal experience was very positive to be honest they were great !

So here I am on only my second Toyota Hybrid and so far it's all good, it's different and is definitlely a smoother more relaxed way of driving with outstanding fuel economy. Other people here are more qualified to cover all the advantages of the technology and were a great help when looking into buying one.

I almost went for a Fiesta ST4 before going with a Yaris but am very comfortable with my current choice which have probably shaped my thoughts for the future.

Best car ever was my Honda SU2000 why oh why did I let it go, I guess we all have regrets

[Yugguy1970]

I am not against mild hybrid tech, I just found it clunky in the Fords I drove.

Although it does crack me up when you get some hypercar that still has a 600bhp 4.0V8 doing 10mpg, but they stick an Airfix motor on the back of it and go "hey it's a hybrid".

[Hibird]

I have a friend who currently has a mild hybrid puma his only niggle is he claims it never gets close to published fuel consumption figures. I do not know how much his driving style may be a factor.

Both my Toyota Hybrids have met/exceeded published figures so well done Toyota 👍

[davidif]

4 hours ago, Hibird said:

Some of the best and most exciting cars I have owned have been from Ford and my personal experience was very positive to be honest they were great !

So here I am on only my second Toyota Hybrid and so far it's all good, it's different and is definitlely a smoother more relaxed way of driving with outstanding fuel economy. Other people here are more qualified to cover all the advantages of the technology and were a great help when looking into buying one.

I almost went for a Fiesta ST4 before going with a Yaris but am very comfortable with my current choice which have probably shaped my thoughts for the future.

Best car ever was my Honda SU2000 why oh why did I let it go, I guess we all have regrets

Mike, I have certainly 'enjoyed' several fast fords with excellent driving characteristics although to me somewhat mediocre fit and finish.

Be interesting to hear your thoughts on the S2000 though as I had one for a shortish period and found the steering inert. Certainly worse than the NC MX5 that followed.

 

[Saxmaniac]

This YouTube channel has interesting content from an engineering point of view. The bloce is somewhat wacky but you get to see details of how various makes are built. This video is one of many good reasons to avoid Hyundai hybrid, this is about the supposedly wonderful idea of the integrated 12v Battery

 

[Hibird]

I had the S2000 at I time when I was changing cars continuously and looking back I don't think I really appreciated it for what is was that being a bit special. I only had it for a short time also and let it go for a good price, it was a very easy car to sell. Still see them around and through my rose tinted glasses look back with a smile

[Hibird]

27 minutes ago, Saxmaniac said:

This YouTube channel has interesting content from an engineering point of view. The bloce is somewhat wacky but you get to see details of how various makes are built. This video is one of many good reasons to avoid Hyundai hybrid, this is about the supposedly wonderful idea of the integrated 12v battery

 

Great post Geoff very interesting and for me a great presentation

[TonyHSD]

Stop start systems and Mild hybrids saves minimal in fuel or pollution but adds complexity and extra spending on parts. The 12v Battery alone it’s double price and they do goes flat too. The 48v system made by German oem company it’s pretty much the same in all makes cars also not much beneficial too. Hybrids that uses belts, friction clutches, separate starter motors and been driven by belts and alternators etc aren’t any good imo. 
Those latest Renault and Nissan are way more interesting but they have almost constantly running ice which aren’t particularly small and efficient, again added weight and complexity kills any benefit gains to the car owners. They are only good on paper for environmental reasons and the real benefit goes towards the manufacturer not the consumer. People realise that and now waiting times for Toyota hybrids close to 12 months and Toyota hybrids has become one of the more popular cars amongst the ice one and all that makes sense. 

[Roy124]

3 hours ago, Hibird said:

I have a friend who currently has a mild hybrid puma his only niggle is he claims it never gets close to published fuel consumption figures. I do not know how much his driving style may be a factor.

Both my Toyota Hybrids have met/exceeded published figures so well done Toyota 👍

Last year I had a Corolla 1.8.  A woman in our club had a newer version.  I rarely dropped below 60mpg.  She never got close.

On Monday she said she did not use any of the features such as lane assist, cruise control, adaptive control etc.  I drove with her once and her style was to slow down when approaching slower traffic, accelerate, overtake and drop back to lane 1. Had she simply moved to lane 2 she would have got passed without changing engine speed.

Better had she realised that a 2-3 mph difference in speeds would have made a negligible difference in the time to the next junction 4 miles on.

How many times do we see cars overtaking at 70, pulling in and breaking hard at an exit only to finish up immediately in front of you?  

[Cyker]

I must admit I have been guilty of that a few times recently due to poor anticipation and Surprise! lane closures... 

(I'm normally quite a good driver I swear!! )

11 hours ago, Hibird said:

Some of the best and most exciting cars I have owned have been from Ford and my personal experience was very positive to be honest they were great !

So here I am on only my second Toyota Hybrid and so far it's all good, it's different and is definitlely a smoother more relaxed way of driving with outstanding fuel economy. Other people here are more qualified to cover all the advantages of the technology and were a great help when looking into buying one.

I almost went for a Fiesta ST4 before going with a Yaris but am very comfortable with my current choice which have probably shaped my thoughts for the future.

Best car ever was my Honda SU2000 why oh why did I let it go, I guess we all have regrets

Yeah hindsight is 20/20 and all that! Fun little cars like the MX5, S2000, MR2 etc. are worth a small fortune these days such is the demand!!

Fiesta ST is a fun car to drive, better handling for sure and fun to take on a hoon, but the nice thing about the Mk4 is you can hoon about and still get stupid MPGs  

I've never had a car where I'm hauling donkey up the M1 at 70mph and watched the mpg go *UP*!!!  The trick is consistency tho' - If you can hold 70mph the mpg just gets stupid, but if you keep slowing down and then have to accelerate back up to 70mph quickly again that consumes a lot of energy (Although the car will happily do it).

I try to get up to 70mph while staying within the Eco+ band if I'm trying to keep the high mpgs - Takes ages unless you get a gravity assist  but unlike my old diesel (Which seemed to prefer faster acceleration/more load for better efficiency) it helps getting a 'high score' noticeably.

On long journeys I prefer to just follow a lorry with the DRCC and auto-steer and let the car do most of the work tho'  

[Roy124]

What might be better too is cruise at 62 so just above the trucks.  They tend to slow on hills, just when Toyota recommend a 5mph drop, then accelerate on a down slope while the car is running on Battery or regenerating. 

Resume 62 on the next section.