Deperate now - engine no power

[spacedmonkeys]

Verso T180 D-Cat, 2009, 2AD-FHV engine

What started off with a new EGR valve has now morphed in to a major problem with my car and I honestly don't know where to go now.

It began with the car smoking alot and a complete lack of power up to 3000 rpm.

EGR valve was changed, couple of days later car went to limp mode, P0400 error TRC and VSC lights on.

Cleared codes and it came out of limp mode but lots of grey/blue smoke. Ran ok apart from this. Then randomly went in to limp mode again.

Took car to Toyota, all they did was diagnose EGR valve and say the one fitted was not working with the car, get it changed to an official one. Did no further diagnostics which annoyed me.

Replaced EGR valve with a higher spec Denso version. Error went away. Still occasional smoke and engine chugging.

A few days later, car back in limp mode! This time errors would not clear and was stuck in limp mode. Disconnected Battery and reset. Managed to get the car to the dealer we bought it from. Out of warranty but they kindly agreed to take a look.

So then the air intake manifold was stripped down acid cleaned and carbon removed. Hoever they say there is a problem, the car is lacking power when steering wheel is straight, but when the steering wheel is turned, the engine power comes back!

Put back together for us and we take the the car away. It is behaving as they say, turn the wheel, plenty of power, stering wheel straight, struggles to pull in anything above 2nd gear. Engine managemnt light i on and the TRC+VSC are on.

I check the errors with Techstream and can see P0069 and C1201. Thinking possibly the MAP sensor got damaged during the engine tear down, I replace this. Has no effect whatsoever.

Current state is car is pretty much undriveable, P0069 error code (Manifold absolute pressure - baromtric pressure correlation), along with a new one (took the car around the block today with Techstream running) P1251 - Step Motor for Turbocharger Control Circuit Intermittent.

Spoke to Toyota and they've said they would take a look at car but obviously its £100 an hour just to look at the thing. Really trying to avoid this.

Car itself has only done 77000 miles, everything else about the car is pretty much mint, bodywork etc so really don't want to have to scrap the thing either but this is keeping me awake at night now.

Any suggestions appreciated.

 

 

[Stivino]

As you've already paid them to diagnose the fault, I don't think you should be charged again for further fault finding as it's clear they charged you for doing something they didn't do.

They also charged you for the supplying and fitting of a part that wasn't needed.

[flash22]

Smoke is unburnt fuel, it's a classic Turbo issue, this can cause over boost issues and/or starves the engine for air, another issue is the Valve that sits on the intake pipe by the Battery

 

[spacedmonkeys]

20 minutes ago, flash22 said:

Smoke is unburnt fuel, it's a classic Turbo issue, the VNT vanes in the turbo get stuck and can burn out the motor, this causes over boost issues and/or starves the engine for air, it's time for a turbo

Happy enough to go that way but how would this relate to the weird steering issue? No power when staight ahead, seems to have plenty of power when turning the wheel off center!? (I can drive like this but likely to get stopped by police for suspected drunk driving!)

[flash22]

Can you move the VNT actuator by hand, the code is a bit misleading as it's a vacuum based system

edit. The verso is slightly different to what i thought, there are a set of valve that control the EGR and the VNT

[spacedmonkeys]

20 minutes ago, flash22 said:

Can you move the VNT actuator by hand, the code is a bit misleading as it's a vacuum based system

edit. The verso is slightly different to what i thought, there are a set of valve that control the EGR and the VNT

I wouldn't know where to even look for that 🙂

Could all of this be a blockage in one of the tubes somewhere

[flash22]

on the turbo on the right as you look at it is a mushroom/lollipop with a single pipe coming off it that is the VNT actuator

There are 2 valves on a plate, one is a switching valve for the EGR and a regulating valve for the VNT one or both of these could be an issue

 

Taking everything into consideration and the weird symptom of turning the steering wheel

Breaking this down

all codes point to the same vacuum system

by turning the steering wheel you get engine power back - the Verso has EPS and draws 30+ amps, the car should increase rpm under load

As it's a diesel to generate vacuum it uses a cam driven vacuum Pump (rh of the head), if this is not producing the correct vacuum the vac system will act strange (brakes may feel off) increasing rpm will make the pump produce more vacuum - test the pump with a vacuum gauge

Battery and alternator issue - get these tested, low voltage/poor engine ground can cause all sorts of problems - full load the system, Blower on full, a/c on, lights on and rear defrost on and see if it makes a difference

 

 

[Devon Aygo]

On 3/8/2023 at 2:44 PM, spacedmonkeys said:

Verso T180 D-Cat, 2009, 2AD-FHV engine

What started off with a new EGR valve has now morphed in to a major problem with my car and I honestly don't know where to go now.

It began with the car smoking alot and a complete lack of power up to 3000 rpm.

EGR valve was changed, couple of days later car went to limp mode, P0400 error TRC and VSC lights on.

Cleared codes and it came out of limp mode but lots of grey/blue smoke. Ran ok apart from this. Then randomly went in to limp mode again.

Took car to Toyota, all they did was diagnose EGR valve and say the one fitted was not working with the car, get it changed to an official one. Did no further diagnostics which annoyed me.

Replaced EGR valve with a higher spec Denso version. Error went away. Still occasional smoke and engine chugging.

A few days later, car back in limp mode! This time errors would not clear and was stuck in limp mode. Disconnected battery and reset. Managed to get the car to the dealer we bought it from. Out of warranty but they kindly agreed to take a look.

So then the air intake manifold was stripped down acid cleaned and carbon removed. Hoever they say there is a problem, the car is lacking power when steering wheel is straight, but when the steering wheel is turned, the engine power comes back!

Put back together for us and we take the the car away. It is behaving as they say, turn the wheel, plenty of power, stering wheel straight, struggles to pull in anything above 2nd gear. Engine managemnt light i on and the TRC+VSC are on.

I check the errors with Techstream and can see P0069 and C1201. Thinking possibly the MAP sensor got damaged during the engine tear down, I replace this. Has no effect whatsoever.

Current state is car is pretty much undriveable, P0069 error code (Manifold absolute pressure - baromtric pressure correlation), along with a new one (took the car around the block today with Techstream running) P1251 - Step Motor for Turbocharger Control Circuit Intermittent.

Spoke to Toyota and they've said they would take a look at car but obviously its £100 an hour just to look at the thing. Really trying to avoid this.

Car itself has only done 77000 miles, everything else about the car is pretty much mint, bodywork etc so really don't want to have to scrap the thing either but this is keeping me awake at night now.

Any suggestions appreciated.

 

 

I have seen the P0069 twice before where steering had a clear effect and it was so simple the Turbo pressure sensor and PAS unit have leads with identical shape plugs coming from the same harness and it is easy to plug them in back to wrong way around

[Devon Aygo]

On 3/8/2023 at 5:29 PM, flash22 said:

on the turbo on the right as you look at it is a mushroom/lollipop with a single pipe coming off it that is the VNT actuator

There are 2 valves on a plate, one is a switching valve for the EGR and a regulating valve for the VNT one or both of these could be an issue

 

Taking everything into consideration and the weird symptom of turning the steering wheel

Breaking this down

all codes point to the same vacuum system

by turning the steering wheel you get engine power back - the Verso has EPS and draws 30+ amps, the car should increase rpm under load

As it's a diesel to generate vacuum it uses a cam driven vacuum Pump (rh of the head), if this is not producing the correct vacuum the vac system will act strange (brakes may feel off) increasing rpm will make the pump produce more vacuum - test the pump with a vacuum gauge

Battery and alternator issue - get these tested, low voltage/poor engine ground can cause all sorts of problems - full load the system, Blower on full, a/c on, lights on and rear defrost on and see if it makes a difference

 

 

I suspect OP has a late 2009 Corolla Verso not a 2009> Verso as the later Verso was never called a T180 and the earlier Corolla Verso had traditional hydraulic PAS 

 

[spacedmonkeys]

7 hours ago, Devon Aygo said:

I have seen the P0069 twice before where steering had a clear effect and it was so simple the Turbo pressure sensor and PAS unit have leads with identical shape plugs coming from the same harness and it is easy to plug them in back to wrong way around

I am going to try this, I am hoping you are right.... it could have been done when the mechanic had the air intake manifold off for clearing out the carbon... fingers crossed!!!

Also the car is uk registered 09, so that means it was bought from the dealership March 2009. It definitely has the T180 Badge on the back, and D-CAT on the engine cover.

We had a 2006 D4D Verso prior to this and it never let us down once, but the more I read about this D-CAT engine the more I want to get rid of it!

[spacedmonkeys]

8 hours ago, Devon Aygo said:

I have seen the P0069 twice before where steering had a clear effect and it was so simple the Turbo pressure sensor and PAS unit have leads with identical shape plugs coming from the same harness and it is easy to plug them in back to wrong way around

On your photo, is this showing the correct pairings? I have just braved the snow and taken a look, mine is black connector going to the MAP sensor and the white connector going to the bottom sensor... I swapped them round and the car definitely seemed to rev better, but I need to wait for a break in work so I can go clear the error codes and take it for a drive.

[spacedmonkeys]

Right so I swapped the cables round, car is now not showing P0069 and clearing the errors gave m back plenty of revs -  however as soon as pulling away, car drops in to limp mode, I saw two errors:

P0234 (new one, not seen this before) but this cleared and didnt come back

P1251 intermittent (recurring error now)

I can't see any lollipop or mushroom that flash22 descibes or the valves, might be looking in wrong place.

These errors seeming to indicate turbo fail or problem I guess, at least the weird steering issue may be gone!

[flash22]

That's a strange one, i can see how that could happen tho - i live and learn

You could try to pull the pipe off the vnt actuator and cap the pipe off

 

Original pic come from here https://motoresalcala.com/motor-2ad-fhv-toyota-corolla-verso-2-2d-d4d-177-cv/

Now we can focus on the issue, and it narrows it down to either the Regulating valve or the VNT getting physically stuck inside the turbo

[spacedmonkeys]

ok thank you for all the help .. My engine looks like the one that Devon Aygo posted. I am an IT man, not mechanic ... I can use Techstream, and I could change the EGR valve and MAP sensor, simple jobs to unscrew and plug in, things like that... but getting into anything more I think I am going to need to get this thing to a mechanic again.

However obviously the better armed with knowledge I am, I can tell them where to focus their efforts.

Some more detail, just took it a drive around the block. Clear error codes, engine revs fine, up to 4000+ rpm. I drove 100 metres and the error lights are on and straight in to limp mode. Grey-blue smoke from exhaust.  Should be ok to drive it to a garage at least!

What I have noticed and this may not be relevant at all, when starting up, and possiby coming from behind the dash where the turbo is, so could be coming from the turbo? I can hear what sounds like stone or grit rattling in the heater system...

[flash22]

That is a 2AD-FHV the FTV is the same layout

PM me your vin to clarify what you have

 

[flash22]

According to the Vin it was built 01/2008 and has an early 2AD-FHV

[spacedmonkeys]

9 minutes ago, flash22 said:

According to the Vin it was built 01/2008 and has an early 2AD-FHV

probably should have had a rebuild or new engine then that wasn't done? 😖

[flash22]

https://media.toyota.co.uk/double-diesel-debut-for-toyota-corolla-verso/

[spacedmonkeys]

so what's the verdict ring round a few local garages see if anyone confident to take this on? at least I can point them in the direction of the turbo and related bits, rather than confuse matters with the steering issue.

[flash22]

yes, if you are not up to checking things yourself

[Devon Aygo]

There is a TSB for P1251 issue which would include your T180:

EG-0018T-0809-EN

Technical Service Bulletin 28/08/2009

Subject: AD-engine: Turbocharger overboost

Models: AVENSIS, COROLLA, AURIS, COROLLA VERSO, RAV 4

Model codes: ADT250, ADT251, ADE150, ADE157, AUR10, ALA30

DESCRIPTION OF PHENOMENON Some customers may experience a lack of power between 2500 – 3000 rpm. They may also notice a power drop in 2nd and 3rd gear while accelerating. The phenomenon can coincide with DTC P1251 with engine check and VSC warning light on.

PRODUCTION CHANGE The turbo production process has been changed and new engine software has been implemented.

Corolla Verso was out of production at launch of this bulletin

REPAIR PROCEDURE Replace the turbocharger sub-assy, according to the repair manual, and update the engine ECU with the software version R/C 11 or a later version.

 

Also here is the Toyota diag process:

DTC    P0234    Turbocharger / Supercharger Overboost Condition

DTC    P0299    Turbocharger / Supercharger Underboost

DTC    P1251    Turbocharger / Supercharger Overboost Condition (Too High)

 

for Preparation Click here

 

DESCRIPTION

 

DTC No.	DTC Detection Condition	Trouble Area
P0234 P0299 P1251	When the condition that the turbocharger pressure exceeds the standard value for 0.5 seconds or more (1 trip detection logic)	E-VRV for turbocharger control Open or short in VRV circuit Turbocharger Vacuum hose EGR valve ECM
	Actual turbocharger pressure is deviated 20 kPa (150 mmHg, 5.9 in.Hg) or more from the simulated target pressure for 60 seconds (1 trip detection logic)

WIRING DIAGRAM

INSPECTION PROCEDURE

 

NOTICE:

 

After replacing the ECM, the new ECM needs registration (Click here) and initialization (Click here).

 

1.CHECK OTHER DTC OUTPUT (IN ADDITION TO DTC P0234, P0299 AND/OR P1251)

1. Connect the intelligent tester to the DLC3.

2. Turn the engine switch ON (IG) and turn the intelligent tester ON.

3. Enter the following menus: "Powertrain / Engine / DTC".

4. Read DTCs.
    

    

   Result:

    

   Display (DTC output)	Proceed to
   P0234, P0299 and/or P1251	A
   P0234, P0299 and/or P1251 and other DTCs	B

    

    

 

B	GO TO DTC CHART

A

2.CHECK CONNECTION OF VACUUM HOSES

 

HINT:

 

Check the vacuum hoses of turbocharger system connections.

 

 

NG	REPAIR OR REPLACE VACUUM HOSES

OK

3.CHECK VACUUM (TURBOCHARGER - E-VRV FOR TURBOCHARGER CONTROL)

1. Using a three-way connector, connect a vacuum gauge to the hose between the E-VRV and turbocharger.

2. Warm up the engine coolant temperature to above 75°C (167°F).

3. Check the vacuum at the engine speed of 900 rpm.
    

    

   Result:

    

   Vacuum	Proceed to
   0 kPa (0 mmHg, 0 in.Hg) to 50 kPa (375 mmHg, 14.8 in.Hg)	A
   Above 50 kPa (375 mmHg, 14.8 in.Hg)	B

    

    

 

B	Go to step 8

A

4.CHECK ECM TERMINAL VOLTAGE (VN TERMINAL)

 

1. Inspect using the oscilloscope.

2. During idling, check the waveform between the specified terminals of the E6 and E7 ECM connectors.

    

   OK:

   Tester Connection	Specified Condition
   VN (E7-10) - E1 (E6-7)	Correct waveform is as shown

    

    

 

OK	REPLACE ECM

NG

5.CHECK E-VRV FOR TURBOCHARGER CONTROL (E-VRV OPERATION)

1. Check the E-VRV operation (Click here).

 

NG	REPLACE E-VRV FOR TURBOCHARGER CONTROL

OK

6.CHECK E-VRV FOR TURBOCHARGER CONTROL (E-VRV RESISTANCE)

1. Measure the E-VRV resistance (Click here).

    

   Standard resistance:

   11.1 to 12.5 Ω

    

    

 

NG	REPLACE E-VRV FOR TURBOCHARGER CONTROL

OK

7.CHECK HARNESS AND CONNECTOR (E-VRV FOR TURBOCHARGER CONTROL - ECM)

 

1. Disconnect the V1 VRV connector.

2. Disconnect the E7 ECM connector.

3. Check the resistance between the wire harness side connectors.

    

   Standard resistance (Check for open):

   Tester Connection	Specified Condition
   VN (E7-10) - VRV (V1-2)	Below 1 Ω
   E2 (E7-28) - VRV (V1-1)	Below 1 Ω

    

    

   Standard resistance (Check for short):

   Tester Connection	Specified Condition
   VN (E7-10) or VRV (V1-2) - Body ground	10 kΩ or higher

    

    

4. Reconnect the VRV connector.

5. Reconnect the ECM connector.

 

NG	REPAIR OR REPLACE HARNESS OR CONNECTOR

OK

8.INSPECT TURBOCHARGER SUB-ASSEMBLY

1. Check the turbocharging pressure (Click here).

    

   Standard:

   48 to 53 kPa (0.49 to 0.54 kgf/cm², 6.9 to 7.7 psi)

    

    

 

NG	REPLACE TURBOCHARGER SUB-ASSEMBLY

OK

9.INSPECT EGR VALVE ASSEMBLY

 

1. Disconnect the E10 EGR valve connector.

2. Measure the resistance between the terminals of the EGR valve.

    

   Standard resistance:

   Tester Connection	Condition	Specified Condition
   1 - 5	20°C (68°F)	6.5 to 7.5 Ω

    

    

3. Reconnect the EGR valve connector.

 

NG	REPLACE EGR VALVE ASSEMBLY

OK

10.CHECK MANIFOLD ABSOLUTE PRESSURE SENSOR

 

1. Turn the engine switch ON (IG).

2. Measure the voltage between the terminals of the E6 and E7 ECM connectors.

    

   Standard voltage:

   Tester Connection	Condition	Specified Condition
   PIM (E6-28) - E2 (E7-28)	Applied negative pressure of 40 kPa (300 mmHg, 11.8 in.Hg)	0.3 to 0.9 V
   PIM (E6-28) - E2 (E7-28)	Same as atmospheric pressure	0.8 to 1.4 V
   PIM (E6-28) - E2 (E7-28)	Applied positive pressure of 69 kPa (518 mmHg, 20.4 in.Hg)	1.6 to 2.2 V

    

    

   HINT:

    

   Even if the voltage output from the manifold absolute sensor is within the standard level, there may be a problem with the sensor due to deterioration because of age.

    

    

 

NG	REPLACE MANIFOLD ABSOLUTE PRESSURE SENSOR

OK
REPLACE ECM

[Cyker]

Blimey, thanks for taking the time to post that Devon; Is there someone we can write to to get you a raise for all this extra work you put in??

Dealers need more people like you that are so willing to help even after nodoubt having to deal with all sorts of idiots at work!  

[spacedmonkeys]

Hello, so after wasting time with a garage who had the car for three weeks and did nothing to it (didn't have the time), and an auto electrician who said it "might be" the E-VRV (regulating valve for the VNT) or "might be" the turbo (at least we narrowed it down but for the money, I was expcting him to actually eletrically test the valve but hey, lesson learned)......

Anyway took it to someone else that was recommended, who finally diagnose two problems:

1. Yes indeed as per suggestions above the E-VRV was faulty, replaced with new

2. the MAP sensor that I had purchased (Denso) was throwing out non-sensical values and also confusing the ECU

Got the car back today and running nicely, slight hesistation pulling away (but it's always done that) and there was a bit of smoke until the engine had heated up properly.... will take it for a long drive later to hopefully clear out any remaining crap.

So, many thanks indeed to Devon Aygo and flash22 for all your assistance with this, resolving the P0069 error and pointing me in the right direction with the E-VRV!

[flash22]

Ah glad you got it sorted - so i was right about the valve, VNT can be a pain specially when up in miles, well at least it's not the 2WW BMW engine