First (and last) time Toyota Owners ...

[Anthony G]

I apologise in advance for the length of this post, but feel the necessary detail may be of interest to a number of other unfortunate Toyota owners or prospective ones.

Are you sitting comfortably ...... (?)

We recently bought a nearly new (1,400 mile) Yaris Hybrid from FRF Toyota (Carmarthen), recommended to us for the exceptionally low mileage (for an 18 month old car). We bought a Toyota because of the perceived (but sadly false) quality & reliability. I choose to run older cars, but my wife wanted a much newer car, to have the comfort of a warranty. Toyota's extended warranty (to 10 years or 100,000 miles) if serviced annually at a dealer seemed too good to be true (... and it obviously is!)

At around 8,500 miles, the rear brakes began to stick on, meaning the car has had to be "dragged" off the drive for a few yards, until the wheels would finally turn (with a violent bang). I was mortified to see that the rear discs were heavily scored, and with a noticeable "lip" on the outer edge. They looked more as if they had done 80,000 miles, not 8,000. As the car had only done around 8,500 miles, I didn't even look at the front discs, believing the rears to be the result of binding calipers/ handbrake. This, despite having recently had a 30,000 mile service (at less than 6,000 miles).

We booked the car in to be checked at FRF Carmarthen. I was shocked to receive a phone call saying that all four discs were heavily scored and needing replacement (along with all pads, obviously), at a cost of around £600. When I discussed the fact that the car had only covered around 8,500 miles, I was fobbed off with all sorts of excuses about driving style and lack of use. The car has only ever stood (once) for a week. Normally, she is driven at least 2-3 times a week, and regularly on a 35 mile round trip. We were patronisingly told that the low mileage was the likely reason for the abnormal wear (rather ironic, coming from the dealer who sold us the car, gushingly promoting its very low mileage ...) I pointed out that the discs were perfect when we bought the car, so it was use (rather than lack of it) that had materialised the problem. This was met with a phrase that became annoyingly frequent in our discussions with the dealer, along the lines of "Well, I don't know about (/can't comment on) that ..."

If Toyota are so keen to seek defence in the regularity of use of a vehicle, directing blame at low(er) mileage users, then why is the type/ frequency of use not raised when customers are being sold a vehicle which may (or may not) be appropriate to them, their needs or lifestyle? If the item being recommended/ sold was (for example) a financial product, a similar matter would almost certainly be deemed to be a case of mis-selling. While this position may appear obtuse, since this experience, I have carried out a little research on Toyota, the Yaris and related brake issues, particularly in respect of hybrid cars. There are a significant number of readily available posts within the Toyota Owners Club internet forum(s) discussing similar issues of accelerated/ abnormal brake disc wear, caliper seizure, etc. (One thread even discusses buying a set of nylon wheel covers, to protect the discs from rain when parked. I had to check the date of posting, but it wasn’t 01/04.) Such apparently common issues reinforce in my mind that I no longer wish to own a Toyota, let alone a hybrid.

I pointed out to the dealer my understanding that both calipers and discs (the latter, rather surprisingly) were covered under the extended warranty, to be told that discs weren't (despite it being apparent in black and white on Toyota's own published extended warranty documentation). I made it very clear that the disc wear (and the dealer's fobbing off) was totally unacceptable, and that I would be taking this further, to Toyota UK and, if necessary, the motor industry ombudsman. The dealer then undertook to relay the matter to Toyota UK for clarification. (It is very surprising and extremely disappointing to have a manager of a Toyota dealership confess that he is not fully aware of the content of the extended warranty they are so proud to promote!)

Very disappointingly (but, sadly, not surprisingly), the message came back that Toyota UK (allegedly) were refusing to carry out any of the work under the extended warranty, as brake discs were only covered for the first 18 months of the car's life (...so why are they contained within an extended warranty document?)

We are rather mystified at the comment regarding this purported 18 months cut-off. Our understanding is that the manufacturer’s original warranty (which is not relevant in this case) is 3 years. We have been unable to find such a reference in any warranty document we have access to. Additionally, it is our understanding that the dealer’s service manager was not entirely au fait with the warranty conditions, having to refer to Toyota UK for clarification. If dealer staff are unable to access or understand warranty provisions, then what hope do mere customers have? Is it maybe that there are a range of warranty documents, with secret, closely-guarded or simply unpublished small-print, only some of which is allowed to filter down to the dealer, and possibly beyond? (I am not normally one for conspiracy theories, but I doubt the transparency evident here.)

The current position would appear that we are expected to face replacing brakes, at a cost of around £600 every 12-18 months. At that rate, the cost benefits of running a newer, hybrid Toyota would be more than offset by the need to prematurely replace brakes. This car is currently costing more to run than my 132,000+ mile, 23 year old Peugeot 306. Is this progress, Mr Toyoda? (and yes, that is correctly spelled.)

When I suggested that this effectively means the components are sub-standard/ unfit for intended use, this was again met with the well practised phrase "Well, I don't know about (/can't comment on) that ..."

When it became increasingly obvious to the dealership that I was far from happy at being patronised and fobbed off, I was advised that they were discounting the bill to the tune of £50. They did not have the audacity to refer to the reduction as a “goodwill” gesture. I would argue that such a contribution is an acknowledgement of liability ….

Interestingly, a few people on the Toyota Owners Club forum have had similar problems, more than one having had brakes replaced FOC by Toyota "with no quibble", in as little as 4,000 miles. One person says; "I am convinced that Toyota are supplying new cars with inferior parts on the brakes. No quibble exchange and no reason given indicates to me that they know all about this problem."(....!!!)

In nearly 40 years of car ownership (am I really that old ...?!), over various periods of high and low mileage, in all sorts of conditions, I cannot recall ever having to replace brake discs in less than 40,000 miles (and probably substantially more).

My wife, who has little interest in cars, and even less in the workings of them, did an internet search on the expected life-span of brake discs. She found the consensus to be around 50,000 miles. If this is the broadly perceived wisdom, why are we being fobbed off by Toyota that around 8,500 miles is an acceptable expectancy?

When I visited the dealer to book the car in for the brake problem to be investigated, the lady at the service desk consulted her computer and informed me (to my surprise) that scoring of the brake discs had been noted a number of months earlier. When I later mentioned this comment to my wife, she was equally confused. We assumed that this had been an advisory on the MOT carried out at the dealership. However, when subsequently looking at the MOT test details online, no such advisory was apparent.

Jumping forward; when we collected the car after the brakes had been examined, the basis of the comment became apparent, to the concern of us both. My wife had looked at previous paperwork given to us by the dealer, and no such comment on the state of the brakes was evident. However, along with the “Visual Safety Report” (VSR) generated in respect of the brake inspection we had requested, we were also handed an equivalent document, dated 5 months previously, which contained two amber “Advisory” notes of “Discs scored”, in respect of both front and rear brakes. Neither of us had seen this document before (nor were we aware that the dealer produced such a report, or we would have expected to have received one). What was given to my wife at that time [the car’s 30k Intermediate service (carried out at 5,578miles)] were two documents;

a Service check list, which identified that the cabin air filter required attention, but no comment regarding brake pads or discs, other than to indicate that they had been checked,

a Toyota Hybrid Health Check pass certificate.

When we stated to the lady at the Service desk that we had not seen the previous Visual Safety Report containing reference to the discs having been scored, she was insistent that it would have been included in the pack handed to my wife when she collected the car after its service. My wife opened the relevant pack, which she happened to have brought with her, and no such document was included. It is obvious that the Visual Safety Report had simply not been printed and included. Frustratingly (and rather concerningly), the two pertinent documents disagree. Whereas the VSR mentions the scored discs, no such indication/ alert is given in the Service checklist. Had we been made aware of the brake wear at that time, remedial action could have been taken and further deterioration (and potential expense) addressed. Also of interest when we examined the newly-presented VSR later, is a repeated comment “ Call 12/01/23” which we assume is a prompt for the dealer to call my wife at that date (3 months after the service), to follow up regarding remedial action alerts. If this assumption is correct, then no such call (which would also have alerted us to the abnormal disc wear) was ever received.

My wife is absolutely adamant that she did not receive this earlier VSR. Had she received a report alerting any safety-related items (ie, not a cabin filter…) she would have questioned the dealership further and discussed with me before even driving the vehicle. It is obvious that there are failures in this dealer’s systems that have allowed these human errors to have directly affected us, resulting in a substantial, and potentially avoidable, cost. What is also annoying, is that we have paid for this “service” (in more than one sense of the word).

I have asked the dealer to confirm in writing the verbal response I have had from them and (purportedly) supported by their liaison with Toyota UK. I am now in receipt of a written response, which is currently the subject of ongoing debate with the dealer. I have made it abundantly clear that their statement will be used in discussion with the Ombudsman, Trading Standards and/ or Court, as appropriate.

It is little wonder, given the above, that Toyota has a rating of only 2.2 out of 5 on Trustpilot, 61% of reviewers giving only a one-star rating. It would be interesting to see how many of those reviewers would have given a zero-star rating, if such an option existed. Had I looked at these reviews before going with my perception that Toyota is a manufacturer of quality vehicles, with a matching reputation for reliability and customer service, we would never have stepped over the dealer’s threshold.

Since owning the car, my wife has been asked about it by a number of family, friends and colleagues, particularly those thinking of buying a self-charging hybrid. Until this incident, she has been happy to recommend Toyota, the Yaris, and the hybrid variant, in particular. Needless to say, we have fundamentally changed our opinion, and are making those interested parties aware of our extreme dissatisfaction over recent events.

By comparison, my wife also has a 2013 Hyundai i20, which she has also owned since nearly new (also at 1,400 miles & 18 months old, ironically). She has had to change to an automatic, as back and hip problems make it very difficult for her to drive a manual car more than a few miles. We kept the Hyundai as she has been a brilliant little car, hardly missing a beat in 8 years & nearly 70,000 miles of ownership. (The various reasons for changing to Toyota are too long a story, even for me..!)

In summary (yes, you are nearing the end ...);

We are appalled at the poor quality of key components (brakes!!) fitted to this car, the worthless extended warranty proudly promoted by Toyota UK, and the patronising, dismissive and arrogant attitude of the dealer and manufacturer. We have had the misfortune of believing the Toyota hype, but will never touch the brand again. We are cancelling the monthly Service Plan payments with immediate effect. The car will have the brakes replaced with quality (ie, non-Toyota OEM items) by a local independent garage we use for all our other cars. It will then be sold before any further inherent/ latent faults develop (for Toyota to worm out of accepting any responsibility for), and replaced [probably by another Hyundai ... or (yet) another 20+ year old Peugeot 306 …]

In the words of The Who; we "won't get fooled again"....

[FROSTYBALLS]

A 2019 Toyota, as per your profile, will still be covered by the five year/100,000 mile new car warranty rather than an extended warranty.

As with the majority of new car warranties, brake discs only carry a limited warranty - often six months - regardless of vehicle manufacturer as they are considered a wear and tear items like Wiper Blades, etc, etc. Most warranties, whether new car or extended, only cover manufacturing faults rather than wear and tear.

As with any warranty, whether it is a new car warranty or an extended warranty, third party or manufacturer, it is best to familiarise oneself with what the warranty actually covers in terms of components, etc.

43 minutes ago, Anthony G said:

despite having recently had a 30,000 mile service (at less than 6,000 miles).

Toyota service intervals are the same as Hyundai - 12 months or 10,000 miles, whichever occurs first (you should be aware of this having owned both). 

We also own cars from both marques.

So as your Yaris has only done 8,500 miles, it should be obvious services would be due on the time basis (every 12 months) rather than the mileage basis.

[Mojo1010]

Obviously it's upsetting you quite a lot with this issue and understandably. So take it up with trading standards and ombudsman as you intended and see what they say. 

All car manufacturers can have some faults with certain parts, none are fault proof. My 2016 Yaris is coming up to 7 years old, 50K miles on original brakes and disks. Encounter zero problem with almost 5 years of ownership. I don't use Toyota for service, independent only. So yes you should expect the same on your car. 

[anchorman]

Brakes are my subject.  I was in R&D for a major manufacture for 17 years but you won’t like my reply so I’ll back off for now.  If you continue doing very low miles you won’t like your next car either.  I wish you all the best.  You might get a better gesture from TGB but don’t be too surprised if you don’t.  

[TonyHSD]

Bad dealer experience. Nothing wrong with car perhaps or the parts. Yes all hybrids brakes are prone to rust and require more attention and more often brake service, a service that not even one Toyota official dealer offers to their customers. They wait until brake shot rusted beyond salvage and then point the car needs a new brakes which ironically not covered under warranty as consumables. Toyota car manufacturer has no fault at all but Toyota dealers have and perhaps Toyota up office. I personally myself have been writing at least few different posts about brakes and issues, even last week I had a drama with dragging front brake and burning smell from the brakes as a result of rust and stuck piston. All in all I am sorry for your poor experience mostly with the dealer. Toyota Yaris still one of the best small cars but yes indeed require more often use or more often brakes and Battery attention. 

[Derek.w]

I am suggesting this without seeing the disc grooves or its lip.

Try a independent garage just to have the lip on the disk ground off and new pads fitted.

You can only do this once as next time disc will de to thin and fail its mot if ground back a second time at some point.

My car just covered 7000 miles in 2.5 years with no brake issues.

[Eddie G]

More miles driven and more use of the brakes needed? my Mark 4 Yaris is 2 years old and at just under 14,000 miles, zero problems with the discs or pads so far.

[Max_Headroom]

I have a 2019 non hybrid at 20,000 miles with no problem with the brakes are they the same? 

[Eddiefh]

If you have to take it for a run to clean or use the brakes to keep them from sticking it’s A little like all mothers who were sold dpf cars for school drop off then have to go on motorway to clean dpf  , I’d be getting a local trusted garage to replace your brakes as it would be cheaper 

[Mojo1010]

Your average annual mileage is very low about <2500 miles. Having a hybrid is probably not worth it given the higher premium and what has happened, and comment from a brakes expert member. Probably best to get a non hybrid auto, though may also need to be driven a bit more to prevent this problem. 

[Yugguy1970]

Fair enough.  We love our Yaris and Rav.  Not blind to their faults but they are reliable.

[flash22]

Discs were more than likely scored what's not uncommon, and doubt they would need changing, brakes are a wear and tear item, low miles does increase the wear as you are constantly clearing a rusted surface

tbh it's a problem with the franchised dealer, like most dealers they will upsell and up charge

I feel you have blown an issue out of proportion by reading too much into it, also if this is your first hybrid, you have to change your driving style to suit - hybrid is not for everyone

 

the question is, why didn't you get a second opinion

3 hours ago, Mojo1010 said:

Your average annual mileage is very low about <2500 miles. Having a hybrid is probably not worth it given the higher premium and what has happened, and comment from a brakes expert member. Probably best to get a non hybrid auto, though may also need to be driven a bit more to prevent this problem. 

I have done low miles in auto and hybrid, the hybrid is far superior around town giving over twice the MPG - with a standard auto it will be heavy on brakes

[anchorman]

There’s a number of responses on exactly the right lines. You can design something along expected parameters but when you change the parameters you can’t expect necessarily to meet the original requirements.  There’s nothing special about Toyota discs and pads.  Toyota don’t make either, I can guarantee that, they buy them in from suppliers that produce parts for other vehicle manufacturers.  There’s nothing spectacularly different about the way the brakes are packaged on a Toyota - they live inside an alloy wheel and a plastic or plastic based wheel arch.  Brakes discs are ordinary grey cast iron with a small modification of alloys to resist cracking and aid refinement and brake pads are a recognised mix of materials with some form of fibre matrix which until you get to high performance cars like Porsche or similar is steel.  Steel and grey cast iron are of course ferrous and will rapidly corrode when subjected to moisture.  The notion that this is exclusive to Toyota is absolutely incorrect, it’s common across all brands that are on sale at a price comparable to the Toyota range.  You can change things to move outside the norm of say a distribution of 8 to 12 thousand miles but we get into the realms of the 12v Battery issue.  Run it outside the design parameters and you get problems.   To then go on and declare to the manufacturer and many satisfied customers that the product is flawed because Toyota won’t take responsibility isn’t going to provoke panic or dissatisfaction which is exactly what the op is intending. This is just bitterness through a lack of understanding and as with the 12v Battery, the only way Toyota can cater for paying such claims or changing the design to accommodate extremities and my response to paying more to do so is bggr off.  Because I border the problems of low Battery use, I cater for that by owning a smart charger and carrying a jump pack, I don’t make it Toyota’s or everyone that owns one’s problem.   It’s is a simple fact that all friction materials and discs enjoy work and all will not react well to not standing unless you remove the catalyst which is moisture.  You can stand them for very long periods in a moisture free environment without problems.  It’s an entitled culture we live in and folk are quick to protest but if I were Toyota I would flatly refuse this claim and I hope any none fact evidenced legal claim fails.  That would also cost future owners.  If you want a car to average 2500 miles a year it can be done but it will have problems or cost the average owner - why should it.  I told you that you wouldn’t like it.  

[TonyHSD]

4 hours ago, Max_Headroom said:

I have a 2019 non hybrid at 20,000 miles with no problem with the brakes are they the same? 

Brakes components like discs and pads might be similar or the same.
The brake pump on hybrids is electronic and how the brakes functions are the major differences. When you leave both cars unused they will rust equally. 
When you start driving though there will be a huge difference.  
Non hybrid cars will use the brakes much more because each slow down and complete stop will be done with the brake discs and pads only adding friction and heat where on the hybrid Toyota’s the actual brakes will only work at the very last moment just before you make the complete stop and in many cases depending on how and where the car been used these minimal brake use will not be enough to clean the brake discs surfaces and to add enough heat to evaporate the water and moisture on the brake components. 

This is why vw uses drum brakes on their id series cars. 

 

[Yugguy1970]

Actually looking at the OP, if there was an issue with sticking calipers, brake hold, or something else binding the brakes on, that caused damage to the brake discs that was beyond regular wear and tear, I would expect the warranty to cover the disks.

The problem would be proving that the issue was a defect in the components rather than just how the car is used.

[anchorman]

1 hour ago, TonyHSD said:

Brakes components like discs and pads might be similar or the same.
The brake pump on hybrids is electronic and how the brakes functions are the major differences. When you leave both cars unused they will rust equally. 
When you start driving though there will be a huge difference.  
Non hybrid cars will use the brakes much more because each slow down and complete stop will be done with the brake discs and pads only adding friction and heat where on the hybrid Toyota’s the actual brakes will only work at the very last moment just before you make the complete stop and in many cases depending on how and where the car been used these minimal brake use will not be enough to clean the brake discs surfaces and to add enough heat to evaporate the water and moisture on the brake components. 

This is why vw uses drum brakes on their id series cars. 

 

Mostly true Tony but other than in the B mode, the brakes are blended throughout a stop.  VW’s spin on using drum brakes on the rear is actually not brilliant because they still have discs on the front.  The advantage of a rear drum brake is a cheap parking brake if truth be known.

 

https://www.volkswagen.co.uk/en/electric-and-hybrid/sustainability/brake-energy-recuperation.html

1 hour ago, Yugguy1970 said:

Actually looking at the OP, if there was an issue with sticking calipers, brake hold, or something else binding the brakes on, that caused damage to the brake discs that was beyond regular wear and tear, I would expect the warranty to cover the disks.

The problem would be proving that the issue was a defect in the components rather than just how the car is used.

If that were the case Guy, they should still be sticking even if the pads and discs were renewed.  Then you’d have to decide which was “normal” wear and which was caused by the fault.  This where gestures come in but even in that case we - everybody else pays for abnormal use in the price of our next car and I would prefer Toyota rejects it.  The dealer can make a gesture if they feel the customer is worthy of it.

[paul9]

I wonder if it would be a good thing for manufacturers to go back to drum brakes for hybrids and electrics? Maybe they would be better at low usage levels, being enclosed.

Sounds like the OP's dealer could have done a lot better in handling the problem.

 

[Mojo1010]

4 hours ago, flash22 said:

Discs were more than likely scored what's not uncommon, and doubt they would need changing, brakes are a wear and tear item, low miles does increase the wear as you are constantly clearing a rusted surface

tbh it's a problem with the franchised dealer, like most dealers they will upsell and up charge

I feel you have blown an issue out of proportion by reading too much into it, also if this is your first hybrid, you have to change your driving style to suit - hybrid is not for everyone

 

the question is, why didn't you get a second opinion

I have done low miles in auto and hybrid, the hybrid is far superior around town giving over twice the MPG - with a standard auto it will be heavy on brakes

The recent Aygo auto has good mpg (2018)

 

[Bper]

14 hours ago, anchorman said:

Brakes are my subject.  I was in R&D for a major manufacture for 17 years but you won’t like my reply so I’ll back off for now.  If you continue doing very low miles you won’t like your next car either.  I wish you all the best.  You might get a better gesture from TGB but don’t be too surprised if you don’t.  

Hi Don,

I would be interested in your experience with breaks and the effects of low milage. 

[Yugguy1970]

30 minutes ago, paul9 said:

I wonder if it would be a good thing for manufacturers to go back to drum brakes for hybrids and electrics? Maybe they would be better at low usage levels, being enclosed.

Sounds like the OP's dealer could have done a lot better in handling the problem.

 

Drums just don't look modern enough, especially for EVs.

[ICF]

Brake discs only and  not pads are clearly included in the warranty and there is no mention of a 18 month time period.

https://www.toyota.co.uk/content/dam/toyota/nmsc/united-kingdom/owners/warranty/toyota-warranty/toyota-warranty-ts-and-cs-june-2022.pdf

[Roy124]

3 hours ago, Yugguy1970 said:

The problem would be proving that the issue was a defect in the components rather than just how the car is used.

@ICF, I think this is the issue. 

[TonyHSD]

Hopefully no drum brakes come back and even vw stop using them. Drum brakes and shoes replacement or cleaning it’s a much more labour intensive process than discs and pads , they also rust and when they do omg, they are even bigger trouble. What can eventually  help is alloy wheels with closed design like on vw e-Golf for example and a different materials used in the discs, ceramic or similar to prevent rust from the weather. Or perhaps a software settings to allow the car computer disengage regenerative braking from time to time to allow the brakes to clean and warm up themselves.  
In my Toyota hybrid experience the brakes are the most common issues that I had to deal with and most often to service on top of the regular oil and filter change. 

[Yugguy1970]

The Yaris has just hit 25 production years and 10 million sales.

[Roy124]

44 minutes ago, TonyHSD said:

Drum brakes and shoes replacement or cleaning it’s a much more labour intensive process than discs and pads , they also rust and when they do omg, they are even bigger trouble.

I had my first SAAB 99.  It had a novel brake system with dual hydraulics and discs all round and cable handbrake operating on rear drum brakes. 

Each hydraulic system operate on 3 wheels but should both hydraulic systems failed you still had the rear handbrake brakes. 

As the handbrake was never normally used when the car was in motion they suffered from rust. 

I had several 99s after the first but don't recall if they changed the system.