Adding anti thief to a Rav4 hybrid 2023

[Javad]

I just got a Rav4 Hybrid 2023, i would like to know if anybody knows which fuse inside the car can be removed without enabling check engine light and disabling the immobilier and car security system and at the same time thief can not reprogram it via OBD or run away with the my car.

i intend to an extra enti-thief electronic RFID module that can connect this circuit only and only RFID is near the car other wise make the life of thief as hell. 

i tried a few fuse and i found AMG2 is good but i think it disable the horn and security system too. 

so i need a fuse or wire that if i take off the fuse or cut the wire

- doesn't turn on check engine light

- doesn't disable security system

- programing a key or turning the car ON via any means (OBD, ...) is impossible 
 

thanks for your help 

[Strangely Brown]

If it were that simple I suspect that either Toyota or an industrious third-party would already have done it.

[Mojo1010]

Steering wheel lock is the visible deterrent, it's pain for a modern vehicle, though it's a line of defense. Find ways of blocking the left front arch. 

[Javad]

I think it's simple, we have to just find the right wire.

The thief run with toyota less than 5 mins this means it's simple.

I called toyota dealership to get wire schematics but they don't share it.

If i got wire drawing I might can find the right wire to avoid ignite the car even with fob key

[FROSTYBALLS]

12 minutes ago, Javad said:

I called toyota dealership to get wire schematics but they don't share it.

How do the dealership know what you're going to do with the info? Steal some Rav4's?

[Javad]

3 hours ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

How do the dealership know what you're going to do with the info? Steal some Rav4's?

That's a very valid point.

I got my rav4 from them and also they know me very well.

Still they told me we don't share anymore cause people touch the car and bring the faulty car for us to do the free fix as part of warranty.

[Strangely Brown]

15 hours ago, Javad said:

I think it's simple, we have to just find the right wire.

The thief run with toyota less than 5 mins this means it's simple.

I called toyota dealership to get wire schematics but they don't share it.

If i got wire drawing I might can find the right wire to avoid ignite the car even with fob key

Are you familiar with CANBUS? There is no longer a "right wire" to find or a fuse to pull. The reason the thief can take the car in under 5 minutes is because they manage to gain access to the CAN and then tell the car that a valid key is present. The car then allows access just as if the owner was there with the key.

The attack itself may be physically simple but technically it is anything but and that means it is very difficult to prevent. Seriously, if it were that easy then I am absolutely certain that Toyota or someone else would have done it and we would not be here talking about it.

Meanwhile deterrent is by far your best bet.

[displaced]

Maybe better adding an extra relay (default open) in series with an existing relay.

Then you can have a secret mechanism to close the relay when you're ready.

[Javad]

Thank you

This is a great idea, but I need to know which existing relay can avoid turn the car on without disabling the car security system and doesn't turn on the engine light if i forgot to turn the switch on prior to ingition on.

 

[Hybrid21]

You need to ensure that you don't invalidate the warranty guys by messing about with the electrics. 😃

[nlee]

If you are intent on doing this, wouldn't it be simpler to look at intervening in any of the interlocks that prevent the car going into "Ready" mode. For example, on the PHEV the car will not go into "Ready" if the charging flap isn't shut properly. There must be a myriad of other checks the car does.

Be mindful though of the damage caused by attempted theft. I saw a post on a Facebook group yesterday where a owner had suffered a seconded attempted theft which had caused significant damage without them being able to take the vehicle. As others have said, a visible deterrent may be better considered so the would be thieves move along.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1312815262474024/permalink/1637814776640736/

 

[Rav4ster]

Various protection options are discussed here

 

[YarisHybrid2016]

What about a big bar through the wheels and locked? Now they need angle-grinders.

[Javad]

I have already used a big bar on wheels which based on local policeman works well as it will take more time for thief to cut the bar.

Still I would like to add a secret anti starter switch.

Thanks

[Strangely Brown]

1 hour ago, Javad said:

I have already used a big bar on wheels which based on local policeman works well as it will take more time for thief to cut the bar.

Still I would like to add a secret anti starter switch.

Thanks

In that case all you have to is figure out where to add it, where it would actually work, and without invalidating the warranty.

[SO8]

I asked the sales girl today if the dealership sold extra immobilisers or trackers, etc ... no was the answer.  I then asked if I could fit one.  She is going to ask but the opinion was 'no' on the basis it interferes with the wiring and 'could' cause issues.   I had this problem with BMW too.

The other issue with immobilisers etc on a hybrid is how they might well interfere with the workings of the hybrid system so I don't want to fiddle !  I certainly don't want to ruin a 10 year warranty !!  I will have GAP when my Rav4 is ready in a week or two ... and will park the n/s against my fence so they have to smash through that before getting to the area they want !  That and a big yellow steering wheel lock I am pretty sure will make them walk by.  CCTV too, though that just shows them doing it.    

I don't want them to try as the damage they cause is the issue ... 

The sales girl was very aware of the theft weakness issue so I am sure Toyota will want to plug the hole somehow and hopefully as my Rav is a 2023 the CAN system is different anyway and this can be retrofitted / updates carried out to the software on all the others easily to at least delay this stupidity.

[tfc]

57 minutes ago, SO8 said:

I asked the sales girl today if the dealership sold extra immobilisers or trackers, etc ... no was the answer.  I then asked if I could fit one.  She is going to ask but the opinion was 'no' on the basis it interferes with the wiring and 'could' cause issues.   I had this problem with BMW too.

The other issue with immobilisers etc on a hybrid is how they might well interfere with the workings of the hybrid system so I don't want to fiddle !  I certainly don't want to ruin a 10 year warranty !!  I will have GAP when my Rav4 is ready in a week or two ... and will park the n/s against my fence so they have to smash through that before getting to the area they want !  That and a big yellow steering wheel lock I am pretty sure will make them walk by.  CCTV too, though that just shows them doing it.    

I don't want them to try as the damage they cause is the issue ... 

The sales girl was very aware of the theft weakness issue so I am sure Toyota will want to plug the hole somehow and hopefully as my Rav is a 2023 the CAN system is different anyway and this can be retrofitted / updates carried out to the software on all the others easily to at least delay this stupidity.

John speak to Toyota UK and see what they have to say, I spoke to them and said it was OK to fit a immobilise as long as it didn't  cause a problem, but best get it straight from  the horses mouth and get it in writing. 

[Javad]

Thanks for your thought,

Most of the time, The problem is when you go out and you leave the car some where for a few hours.

Meantime buy an OBD lock, to add extra hard time to thief.

[Strangely Brown]

5 hours ago, Javad said:

Thanks for your thought,

Most of the time, The problem is when you go out and you leave the car some where for a few hours.

Meantime buy an OBD lock, to add extra hard time to thief.

Why? The attack is not through the OBD port and they would have to open the car to get at it anyway, thereby triggering the alarm.

The reason they go through the wheel arch to the headlamp is because it gives access to the CAN wiring without triggering any alarm switches (boot, doors, tailgate, glass) and they can do what they need from there.

I use the StopLock when I park overnight at home and also anywhere while out that is at all secluded. If I park in a public place where there are a lot of people about then I don't bother. It's a trade off between security and convenience and, for now at least, I think I have found the level of risk that I am prepared to carry.

[PCM]

I've just seen this on another forum...

https://www.keylessdefender.org/instalationkeyless/ 

[kucyk]

13 minutes ago, PCM said:

I've just seen this on another forum...

https://www.keylessdefender.org/instalationkeyless/ 

That's not needed in never fobs, you can't perform a relay attack against them as they go into deep sleep mode after 4 minutes of last movement

[Yugguy1970]

1 hour ago, Strangely Brown said:

Why? The attack is not through the OBD port and they would have to open the car to get at it anyway, thereby triggering the alarm.

The reason they go through the wheel arch to the headlamp is because it gives access to the CAN wiring without triggering any alarm switches (boot, doors, tailgate, glass) and they can do what they need from there.

I use the StopLock when I park overnight at home and also anywhere while out that is at all secluded. If I park in a public place where there are a lot of people about then I don't bother. It's a trade off between security and convenience and, for now at least, I think I have found the level of risk that I am prepared to carry.

Exactly.  Putting all the wiring up in the engine bay would mean the scrotes would have to break in and trigger an alarm.  Right now all they need to do is pull a bit of plastic trim off.  This is REALLY bad design from Toyota, there's no advantage or need for it to be in the wheel arch.

[SO8]

Anyone thought of using one of these … perhaps on the front near side wheel to show a thief don’t bother ?  
 

This and a stop lock pro elite or the like look like they won’t take more than seconds to put on but the cost is a lot less than say Ghost 2 and it is visible + no warranty issues (though my dealer said for arguments sake fitting a hard wired tracker will not void warranty) 

[Roy124]

IMHO John's suggestion has more merit than an alarm or tracker. 

Unless your insurer insists on a tracker, do you really want the car back? 

As for an alarm, who actually reacts?  They go off in car parks all the time. 

When I fitted a home alarm system the area manager recommended a 'curtain' alarm.  It sounds before a thief breaks a window or forces entry. The various wheel locks have the same function of deterrent before a break in. 

[SO8]

On 4/16/2023 at 8:25 AM, SO8 said:

Anyone thought of using one of these … perhaps on the front near side wheel to show a thief don’t bother ?  
 

This and a stop lock pro elite or the like look like they won’t take more than seconds to put on but the cost is a lot less than say Ghost 2 and it is visible + no warranty issues (though my dealer said for arguments sake fitting a hard wired tracker will not void warranty) 

Ok, so I have ordered one of these ... well the one for a 4x4 ... £110 from Safe.co.uk.  It arrives tomorrow.  All I need now is my PHEV to go with it !  That still awaits a V5 from DVLA to enable to the dealer to release it to me.

I will update once I have the clamp ... and the car to try it on !!