Excessive body roll in the Yaris Mk3.

[turtle15]

I have a Yaris Mk3, 2015 (facelift) and with 175/65 R15 tires (Michelin Energy Saver Plus front and Continental Premium Contact 5 rear). I use 36 psi front and 35 psi rear.

I think it has a very large (almost ridiculous) body roll. In fact, I am embarrassed when I travel with a passenger in the front - even at moderate speeds, the poor passenger wobbles a lot at every turn 🤪.

Strangely enough, the car has a very good grip considering the size of the tires and the excessive body roll.

My "benchmark" is a 2010 Auris (facelift) with 205/55 R16 tires that I drive a lot. Compared to the Yaris it seems to have no body roll at all. Super flat in the corners and much more composed on uneven surfaces (much more comfortable).

My question is, if I put the 195/50 R16 tires on the Yaris, will it look like the Auris or is the Yaris' problem mostly to do with its suspension and I can't do anything about it (I don't want to mess with the suspension)?

What is your opinion on all this? Does anyone have a comparison of a Yaris with a 15 rim (175) and a 16 rim (195)?

It seems that the Yaris Mk4 is MUCH better as far as body roll is concerned, but I don't want to switch cars.

[Roger Johnson]

The tyre size mainly affects grip and not body roll. If it really annoys you, I would suggest talking to a performance specialist who will be able to advise you on alternative shocks and or uprated anti roll bar. I wouldn’t go down the route of replacing wheels and tyres at this stage. 
 

Prosport Performance in Salisbury might be a starting point.

[PCM]

Or get the suspension checked?

[TonyHSD]

First thing suspension check as noted. Worn shocks, bushes, or stabiliser bar bushes can cause excess body roll in turns. 
When all checked and OK, then you can think about tyres, wider tyres themselves will not change drastically the body roll by much if anything at all but the difference on tyre track can do and can help a bit. Best to check these two websites what you can change and stay within the manufacturer specs. https://www.wheel-size.com
https://www.willtheyfit.com, 

In some cases change in tyres brand and model can change the car handling completely. 
Important not to mess up with suspension as this can make the ride very hard and uncomfortable and remember that these cars mk3 are known for been with body roll. Perhaps if you buy a better tyres not eco but touring type if available at your original sizes you may feel a bit of improvement. 
And again the centre of gravity plays the most important role in car body roll.
I don’t have comparison between Yaris 15” and 16” , but I do have on Auris 2010 facelift I went from 17” 215 tyres down to 16” 205 and handling did not changed at all, only comfort and road noise are way better 👍

[Bernard Foy]

I drive my wife’s 2015 Yaris 1lt on the odd occasion and didn’t notice any significant body roll on cornering. I would suggest that your tyre pressures are a bit on the high end, by 3psi all round, whether that is a contributing factor or not others more knowledgeable may chime in.

[Cyker]

I'm not sure what constitutes excessive body roll here, as no Yaris has ever been praised for its flat high speed cornering, but the Mk1 and Mk2, the diesels especially, are famed for being quite wallowy!

They tried to fix it in the Mk3 by stiffening up the suspension, instead of doing it properly like they did in the Mk4, so it should be less wallowy than those but have a much harder ride.

As other have suggested, before you start changing rims and tyres and such, I reckon you should get your suspension looked at.

It's more likely your ARB droplinks or some bushes have had it and need replacing, esp. if there are clunking sounds, or maybe even the ARB has come loose from its mounts and isn't doing anything - This has happened to me before and you really notice how much worse the car rolls when going round corners!!

[turtle15]

The suspension has already been checked, and in addition, the car only has 40000 miles. The body roll doesn't bother me much when I ride alone, but with passengers I am embarrassed (plus it is not comfortable for them).

And yes, I think in the "original" Mk3 (2011/2012) they made the suspension stiffer, but in the 2014/2015 facelift they made it softer. To compensate for the softer springs and dampers, they added rebound springs inside the front shock absorbers and the rear torsion beam was stiffer. In fact, I think the difference between the facelifted Mk3 and the Mk2 is much more significant than between the original Mk3 and the Mk2.

Since I don't want to mess with the suspension, I can only learn to live with the Yaris' body roll. As for the tires, when my father changed the tires on the Auris from 195/65 R15 to 205/55 R16 he says he noticed a massive improvement in the body roll. I can't say anything because I never drove the Auris with the 15 rim. This is the reason why I asked if putting the 16 rim on the Yaris might help.

What about the Yaris competition, how is the Yaris Mk3 compared to the then Polo and Clio in the handling department? Much worse?

 

[TonyHSD]

13 minutes ago, turtle15 said:

The suspension has already been checked, and in addition, the car only has 40000 miles. The body roll doesn't bother me much when I ride alone, but with passengers I am embarrassed (plus it is not comfortable for them).

And yes, I think in the "original" Mk3 (2011/2012) they made the suspension stiffer, but in the 2014/2015 facelift they made it softer. To compensate for the softer springs and dampers, they added rebound springs inside the front shock absorbers and the rear torsion beam was stiffer. In fact, I think the difference between the facelifted Mk3 and the Mk2 is much more significant than between the original Mk3 and the Mk2.

Since I don't want to mess with the suspension, I can only learn to live with the Yaris' body roll. As for the tires, when my father changed the tires on the Auris from 195/65 R15 to 205/55 R16 he says he noticed a massive improvement in the body roll. I can't say anything because I never drove the Auris with the 15 rim. This is the reason why I asked if putting the 16 rim on the Yaris might help.

What about the Yaris competition, how is the Yaris Mk3 compared to the then Polo and Clio in the handling department? Much worse?

 

Polo is very good, probably the best small car of all. Handling, sound proofing, comfort, it gives you that large car feeling. I believe it is the better car from both. Toyota shines with its hybrid system the most and reliability of many of its components but lack some refinement and comfort and some driving characteristics. 

[Cyker]

53 minutes ago, turtle15 said:

The suspension has already been checked, and in addition, the car only has 40000 miles. The body roll doesn't bother me much when I ride alone, but with passengers I am embarrassed (plus it is not comfortable for them).

And yes, I think in the "original" Mk3 (2011/2012) they made the suspension stiffer, but in the 2014/2015 facelift they made it softer. To compensate for the softer springs and dampers, they added rebound springs inside the front shock absorbers and the rear torsion beam was stiffer. In fact, I think the difference between the facelifted Mk3 and the Mk2 is much more significant than between the original Mk3 and the Mk2.

Since I don't want to mess with the suspension, I can only learn to live with the Yaris' body roll. As for the tires, when my father changed the tires on the Auris from 195/65 R15 to 205/55 R16 he says he noticed a massive improvement in the body roll. I can't say anything because I never drove the Auris with the 15 rim. This is the reason why I asked if putting the 16 rim on the Yaris might help.

What about the Yaris competition, how is the Yaris Mk3 compared to the then Polo and Clio in the handling department? Much worse?

 

Oh thanks, I didn't know they changed the suspension back to make it softer in later revisions! I'd only heard the grumbling about the harder ride in initial reviews, but they must have taken that on-board!

It's tricky to recommend anything as I might drive it and think it's normal - High profile tyres can be a bit wallowier when the car is loaded, which can be compensated for with higher pressures to stop them compressing as much under load. Bigger, wider rims may help I suppose but usually it's the suspension that has the biggest effect.

My ricer mate suggests fitting a front strut brace and front and rear Whiteline ARBs  

[Mojo1010]

I have the MK3 with that size tyres to begin with.....they are horrid even turning corners at slow speed alone in the car! The tyres are too narrow, could not believe how horrid it was when I bought the car without a test drive. But I knew when looked at the tyre size that it will be trouble on corners. Also know something can be done about it.

So I got rid of it with the treads that can go on for another year. Put 185/60/15 on and it improved quite a bit, 195/60/15 would be better but the rims cannot really take it well as the tyres will look under inflated. If you put the 195/50/16 then it will definitely solved the body roll problem further. The easiest and cheapest option are the 185mm. City and local driving will be okay, medium distance so so, long distance need to work hard on the corners still. 

That is also one of the reasons I needed to get a hybrid car with wider tyres. So my next one is Yaris design MK4 with 195/55/16, major improvement in the car and 10mm wider than my car. When that is done will be putting 205/55/16, that's when I will be fully satisfied with the tyre profile. 

[flash22]

it must be that extra bit of weight in the hybrid, but it doesn't roll that much, i had a 6 month old Micra 2013/14 as a hire car, that thing would change lanes on you if pushed, that thing was all over the shop

play with the tire pressures, conti's are soft as cheese, the energy savers are meh, they are an eco tire for sure, for the cost - get a matching set of something half decent all around

[Mojo1010]

3 hours ago, Bernard Foy said:

I drive my wife’s 2015 Yaris 1lt on the odd occasion and didn’t notice any significant body roll on cornering. I would suggest that your tyre pressures are a bit on the high end, by 3psi all round, whether that is a contributing factor or not others more knowledgeable may chime in.

The problem is the extra weight of the hybrid engine at the front with narrow tyres which isn't suitable for it (lower trims). Toyota learnt from that with the MK4 starting at 195mm and stiffer chassis. 

[Cyker]

That's a bit funny, as eco tyres are normally known for having stiffer sidewalls for the lower rolling resistance so I didn't think they'd be that soft.

I do think the tyre pressures are a bit on the low side for the heavier cars - I know with my Mk1, the standard pressures were the same for the petrol and diesel versions, despite the diesel being significantly heavier at the front.

IIRC I raised them by 5 psi so fronts stopped bulging so much, and it made the car handle much better and also evened out the tyre wear (The shoulders were wearing a lot before)

I've found the Mk4 fine even on the 185 15"s, but I don't know how much of that is the traction/stability control masking things, as I have noticed the car will torque-vector the car with the brakes if it gets a bit leery on a curve!  

[Max_Headroom]

3 hours ago, Bernard Foy said:

I drive my wife’s 2015 Yaris 1lt on the odd occasion and didn’t notice any significant body roll on cornering. 

I agree with all the members above body roll is not  an issue mine certainly doesn't roll any more than my Corsa SXI did and they are well known for having stiff suspension,  get the suspension looked at something isn't right.

[flash22]

The 1L is light so may not be as planted as the 1.33/1.5

[turtle15]

1 hour ago, Cyker said:

Oh thanks, I didn't know they changed the suspension back to make it softer in later revisions! I'd only heard the grumbling about the harder ride in initial reviews, but they must have taken that on-board!

In addition they strengthened the chassis significantly (not just with new welding points). The 2014 facelift was pretty much a new generation. Actually I wonder if when Toyota says that the Mk4 is X percent stiffer than the previous generation are they referring to the original Mk3 (which I would call Mk2.5) or the facelift. If they are referring to the Mk3 facelift they are giant numbers. And I think in the last facelift (2017) they modified the suspension again but this time I think it was only for the hybrid engine and there were no chassis interventions (just springs and dampers).

 

3 hours ago, Bernard Foy said:

I drive my wife’s 2015 Yaris 1lt on the odd occasion and didn’t notice any significant body roll on cornering. I would suggest that your tyre pressures are a bit on the high end, by 3psi all round, whether that is a contributing factor or not others more knowledgeable may chime in.

Mine is also the 1.0.

1 hour ago, Mojo1010 said:

I have the MK3 with that size tyres to begin with.....they are horrid even turning corners at slow speed alone in the car! The tyres are too narrow, could not believe how horrid it was when I bought the car without a test drive. But I knew when looked at the tyre size that it will be trouble on corners. Also know something can be done about it.

So I got rid of it with the treads that can go on for another year. Put 185/60/15 on and it improved quite a bit, 195/60/15 would be better but the rims cannot really take it well as the tyres will look under inflated. If you put the 195/50/16 then it will definitely solved the body roll problem further. The easiest and cheapest option are the 185mm. City and local driving will be okay, medium distance so so, long distance need to work hard on the corners still. 

That is also one of the reasons I needed to get a hybrid car with wider tyres. So my next one is Yaris design MK4 with 195/55/16, major improvement in the car and 10mm wider than my car. When that is done will be putting 205/55/16, that's when I will be fully satisfied with the tyre profile. 

It's funny that I also bought the Yaris without taking a test drive first. Honestly, if I did, I don't know if I would buy another car; reliability is the most important thing to me. When you say "horrid", do you mean the grip, the body adornment, or everything? As I said, the grip is very good for me. In fact I think that if the Yaris had the same tires as the Auris it would even be better than it in this aspect, but the damn body roll...

29 minutes ago, Cyker said:

That's a bit funny, as eco tyres are normally known for having stiffer sidewalls for the lower rolling resistance so I didn't think they'd be that soft.

I think it is just the opposite: eco-friendly tires have softer sidewalls to reduce losses related to resistance to flexing. 

[turtle15]

20 minutes ago, Max_Headroom said:

I agree with all the members above body roll is not  an issue mine certainly doesn't roll any more than my Corsa SXI did and they are well known for having stiff suspension,  get the suspension looked at something isn't right.

195/50 R16?

[Max_Headroom]

25 minutes ago, turtle15 said:

195/50 R16?

I have never changed them so don't know the size,  the site below gave me -   195/55 R16

https://www.oponeo.co.uk/registration-number

 

[Mojo1010]

Cornering is horrid. Your car is the 1.0L imagine mine which is the hybrid, even worse. Wider tyres helps with grip when cornering and less body roll if the sidewall isn't too high. 

2 hours ago, Max_Headroom said:

I have never changed them so used  the site below which gave me -   195/55 R16

https://www.oponeo.co.uk/registration-number

Your tyre isn't 175mm that is reason body roll isn't noticed. 

[Max_Headroom]

1 hour ago, Mojo1010 said:

Cornering is horrid. Your car is the 1.0L imagine mine which is the hybrid, even worse. Wider tyres helps with grip when cornering and less body roll if the sidewall isn't too high. 

Your tyre isn't 175mm that is reason body roll isn't noticed. 

I may be wrong but surely its the side wall height that would cause body roll not the width which would alter grip.

Edit to add - 

Quote

Better Cornering: Body roll is directly associated with the stiffness of the suspension but tyres also play an important role here. Higher sidewalls induce more flex, due to which the car may roll more during high speed cornering. On the other hand, low-profile tyres have lesser but stronger sidewalls thus minimizing body roll to give you better stability around a tight corner.

https://www.cartoq.com/effects-of-upsizing-tyres/#:~:text=Higher sidewalls induce more flex,stability around a tight corner.

[Mojo1010]

Sidewall height is just one part of it. Once I went 20mm wider on a fiesta while keeping the sidewall similar, the improvements were major, grip and cornering were so much more secure with less body roll. 

If you now put the OP tyre profile on your car then u will find out first hand experience the body roll. 

[FROSTYBALLS]

The 2014 facelift was reasonably extensive, but certainly not a new generation - see attachments for the 2014 and 2017 facelifts.

The improvements to the 1.0 engine were as per the second generation pre-facelift Aygo (2014-2018).

The 1.5 petrol engine introduced in 2017, was a development of the 1.33.

The New 2014 Toyota Yaris - Media.Toyota.co.uk.pdf New 2017 Toyota Yaris - Media.Toyota.co.uk.pdf

[Max_Headroom]

1 hour ago, Mojo1010 said:

Sidewall height is just one part of it. Once I went 20mm wider on a fiesta while keeping the sidewall similar, the improvements were major, grip and cornering were so much more secure with less body roll. 

I cannot seem to find much info to back this up the majority of results come back similar to this -  

Quote

With everything else equal, a higher profile tire flexes more than a lower profile tire; thus, more body roll. That's why they go by percentage of tire width when specifying sidewall profile instead of going by height of sidewall. 

 

[Cyker]

1 hour ago, turtle15 said:

I think it is just the opposite: eco-friendly tires have softer sidewalls to reduce losses related to resistance to flexing. 

Eh, that doesn't make sense to me - The squishier a tyre, the higher the rolling resistance, as that deformation soaks up energy, so they make them harder and less squishy to reduce rolling resistance.

This is provable just with tyre pressures - Run a tyre at 20psi and see how it rolls, then inflate it to 40psi and see how it rolls - The 40psi one will roll much better, and is partly why I err to higher pressures.

 

I must say this thread is very interesting as this is the first time I've heard so many Mk3 owners complain about bodyroll! It was a well known characteristic of the Mk1 and Mk2, especially the heavier diesels, but I'd not seen any Mk3 owners mention it before!

 

[turtle15]

1 hour ago, Max_Headroom said:

I have never changed them so don't know the size,  the site below gave me -   195/55 R16

https://www.oponeo.co.uk/registration-number

If it is the Mk3 it must be 195/50 R16 (not 55). The Mk4 is the 195/55 R16.

And yes, if I were to replace the tires it would be because of the sidewall (lower). The tire width (at least theoretically) does not affect the body roll.

1 hour ago, Mojo1010 said:

Sidewall height is just one part of it. Once I went 20mm wider on a fiesta while keeping the sidewall similar, the improvements were major, grip and cornering were so much more secure with less body roll. 

If you now put the OP tyre profile on your car then u will find out first hand experience the body roll. 

Isn't Fiesta the king of handling 😂?

As far as the Polo is concerned, here is a video showing the two side by side in the moose test (starting at 9 minutes): https://youtu.be/6KhSuheJd0A

From the video (if anything), I would even say that the Polo has more body roll.