Weight or cost cutting?

[cruiserOAP]

There's some discussion on various forums about the 12V batteries in Yaris Crosses going flat, and AA breakdown staff have apparently told owners that call outs to flat batteries on these vehicles are not uncommon. It has been suggested that Toyota has needed to pare the weight down, and doesn't offer spare wheels, for example, to keep the weight below a certain figure. Does anyone know anything about this? Is there a target weight, and why? Is the 12V Battery too small for weight cutting reasons?

[Roy124]

Mike, we go round this buoy once a week (or more). 

A higher capacity Battery would increase the time before it goes flat but if usage is very low and you are in Ready mode for only a few minutes a day (or less) you will eventually have a flat Battery. 

I had a Battery change and the garage upgraded it from 35 AHr to 42 AHr.  I still managed to get it flat from non-use over 8 days. 

That said, my MY21 Yaris Cross seems to lose charge much more slowly than the MY19 Corolla. 

The Yaris might have a lower parasitic drain or they might have improved the electronics. 

[FROSTYBALLS]

It isn't just Yaris Crosses that may have an issue with the 12v batteries.

Other Toyota models and hybrids from other manufacturers can be similarly affected.

The issues are often down to lack of use, etc, etc.

As regards weight saving, whether this is spare wheels, glass, paint, etc, this is done to save manufacturing costs, reduce fuel consumption, and to reduce emissions when the car is tested prior to being permitted to be sold.

A prime example are models (not specifically Toyota) where a space saver spare wheel is provided for those models without a panoramic roof, but not for those with a panoramic roof. The extra weight of the panoramic roof and a space saver spare could push the emissions into a higher band.

None of this prevents owners from fitting a spare wheel when they have the car.

[MarkBUK]

The problem is common to many makes and models of car. The underlying cause is that while 12v batteries haven't become much bigger over time, the current drawn on them has. Volumetric/parametric alarms, keyless entry, wi-fi/4G data connection all mean that a static car runs down the Battery. Ideally manufacturers would fit much larger-capacity batteries to modern cars, but few if any seem to bother.

[Max_Headroom]

"Mike, we go round this buoy once a week (or more)"

It has to be one of the topics with the most threads here.

The bottom line is if you are only going to drive very short distances a couple of times a week don't buy the hybrid or you will eventually have the dreaded no start issue, you can get round this by using a solar panel charger or a smart Battery charger to keep the Battery topped up but do you really want to mess about with chargers  every time you plan not to drive it for several days?

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

As regards weight saving, whether this is spare wheels, glass, paint, etc, this is done to save manufacturing costs, reduce fuel consumption, and to reduce emissions when the car is tested prior to being permitted to be sold.

And I suspect we all know how those figures are "fiddled". It's ridiculous what is done on the altar of emissions etc. by reducing weight and other stuff to get those figures down. Then an owner, if they so wish, has to fork out for those suspiciously available extras to bring the vehicle up to a standard they desire - e.g. a full size spare or even the small temporary to replace either nothing or an inflation kit. That then brings the vehicle mass up to that it would have been when the omission of bits took place.

[FROSTYBALLS]

10 minutes ago, olonas said:

It's ridiculous what is done on the altar of emissions etc.

All part of the rich tapestry of life ...

[anchorman]

I’m quite happy to criticise Toyota for fit and finish but not for this Battery thing.   The Battery is fit for the majority of users and cutting down on weight is all part of the global emissions and carbon footprint targets.  If Toyota are guilty of anything, they might work with dealers to devise a questionnaire to quickly determine if the buyer is likely to get problems.  If an elderly person comes in with a very low mileage trade in, alarm bells should ring and they shouldn’t be discouraged from buying a hybrid but just like a new cooker, they might need some tuition.  I’m not stereotyping elderly people before anyone protests.  It must be very frustrating if you’ve shelled out for a new car and it doesn’t start but in this case, it’s just understanding a bit about how it works.  It’s no less unreasonable to know how to carry and use a jump pack than it is to carry and use the gear to plug an electric in.  Sooner or later they’re going to have to get used to it.  

[Roy124]

28 minutes ago, anchorman said:

If an elderly person comes in with a very low mileage trade in, alarm bells should ring and they shouldn’t be discouraged from buying a hybrid but

 

If a person comes in....... 

In the 50s our chemist drove his Sunbeam Rapier to work every day and changed it every year. I bet he only had a 1,000 miles on it. 

The school run RAV might only do 50-100 miles a week with a couple of longer runs in a year. 

 

In hard economic terms, to avoid public transport, use a taxi. 

 

PS, this elderly person is doing 1 000 per month and would love to have low use Battery problems 😁

[Cyker]

36 minutes ago, anchorman said:

I’m quite happy to criticise Toyota for fit and finish but not for this battery thing.   The battery is fit for the majority of users and cutting down on weight is all part of the global emissions and carbon footprint targets.  

That did make me chuckle as I'm the opposite! I've come to expect the slightly iffy fit and finish (Comes from being a former Mk2 Yaris owner with its 1cm panel gaps I guess  ), but I really feel the hybrid's 12v batteries should be able to survive at least as long as, say, the Aygo's!

I don't know if it is the Battery size or higher parasitic draw, but it's not like this is a new problem that they haven't had time to think up a better solution for. Although owners can mitigate the problem by using the car more, Toyota definitely shouldn't get a pass on it IMHO.

To be fair, it does seem mostly confined to the Yaris and Yaris Cross so far, as I don't think we've seen many Corolla owners that have had it, and aside from Nick's RAV4, which turned out to be due to the dealer accidentally downgrading his ECU firmware to one with a known 12v problem, I can't think of any model that this is as common an issue with. (Which I also haven't had yet, but then I actually use the car regularly   )

Maybe we'll see a firmware update that further reduces parasitic draw or introduces a super low-power mode, or they'll do a Yaris vs Aygo clutch style fix and start fitting Corolla batteries  

[cruiserOAP]

4 hours ago, Roy124 said:

Mike, we go round this buoy once a week (or more). 

A higher capacity battery would increase the time before it goes flat but if usage is very low and you are in Ready mode for only a few minutes a day (or less) you will eventually have a flat battery. 

I had a battery change and the garage upgraded it from 35 AHr to 42 AHr.  I still managed to get it flat from non-use over 8 days. 

That said, my MY21 Yaris Cross seems to lose charge much more slowly than the MY19 Corolla. 

The Yaris might have a lower parasitic drain or they might have improved the electronics. 

I'm puzzled by Toyota's 'low use' excuse. None of my cars over the last 50 years has ever gone flat after long term parking, except for two cases of duff alternators. My 7 year old Seat's Battery is down to 75% capacity but started on the button after two weeks layup.

I think some cars may have a current drain problem somewhere in the electronics and dealers are blaming owners instead of identifying the problem. New cars that won't start after a couple of days parked up? Not acceptable. Cars are expected to function properly in normal use, and if they do not, they are not fit for purpose. It's not difficult to check for a current drain while a car is switched off, and I will do this if my new Yaris Cross develops this problem, and  reject the car if necessary.

[TonyHSD]

45 minutes ago, cruiserOAP said:

I'm puzzled by Toyota's 'low use' excuse. None of my cars over the last 50 years has ever gone flat after long term parking, except for two cases of duff alternators. My 7 year old Seat's battery is down to 75% capacity but started on the button after two weeks layup.

I think some cars may have a current drain problem somewhere in the electronics and dealers are blaming owners instead of identifying the problem. New cars that won't start after a couple of days parked up? Not acceptable. Cars are expected to function properly in normal use, and if they do not, they are not fit for purpose. It's not difficult to check for a current drain while a car is switched off, and I will do this if my new Yaris Cross develops this problem, and  reject the car if necessary.

Usually after so many reads and writes we have come to a conclusion that in some cases the 12v Battery problem is more of a inheritance thing  than anything else. There are procedures that dealers should do while they poses the cars , store them and move between forecourts. There are also PD checks and procedures which seems neglected these days. In those cases the new owner has a brand new car with already depleted Battery on day one of its new car delivery/collection. Add the minimal or lack of use afterwords and here we have the problem that many has come to shortly after entering into ownership. Then the dealer will obviously denied any responsibility and likely refuse to exchange the Battery under warranty. If you push and been lucky you may have a new battery. My suggestion and what I would have done is fully change the battery immediately after have my new car in my drive, pretty much like you have a new phone out of the box, plug it in , charged full and then enjoy. 👌

[Roy124]

2 hours ago, Cyker said:

, it does seem mostly confined to the Yaris and Yaris Cross so far, as I don't think we've seen many Corolla owners that have had it,

Oh! 

3 flats and one of those after Battery change on my MY19 Corolla and no hint of a problem on my MY21 YC. 

It was lock down that did it for my Corolla although one failure was after a Battery change.  The Yaris has done 8k in 8 months

 

[Cyker]

Oh okay maybe I'm not entirely correct then...  

 

[Roy124]

1 hour ago, cruiserOAP said:

think some cars may have a current drain problem somewhere in the electronics

We're pretty sure this is the problem.  My YC shows, a steady drain for up to a day and a half, thereafter the drains less than 0.01v.

[Max_Headroom]

1 hour ago, Roy124 said:

We're pretty sure this is the problem.  My YC shows, a steady drain for up to a day and a half, thereafter the drains less than 0.01v.

Back in the day  you turned the ignition off and everything on the car turned off (didn't even have a clock in those days) these days many systems still run when you turn the ignition off so you are going to get a certain amount of drain on the 12v Battery, the fact you say it stops after a day and a half proves this.

[dannyboy413]

1 minute ago, Max_Headroom said:

so you are going to get a certain amount of drain on the 12v battery, the fact you say it stops after a day and a half proves this.

Just out of interest, has anyone found out just what is causing the drain?

[Cyker]

11 minutes ago, Max_Headroom said:

Back in the day  you turned the ignition off and everything on the car turned off (didn't even have a clock in those days) these days many systems still run when you turn the ignition off so you are going to get a certain amount of drain on the 12v battery, the fact you say it stops after a day and a half proves this.

Indeed; Part of it is all the radio gear - We learned from the Auris the keyless entry system can consume huge amounts of power if it's running at full alertness continuously.

Another one is 'cloud services' - In order to let people use an app to control the car while it's 'off', far more of its systems need to be on, awake and drawing power which all adds to the problem.

The 12v batteries in some fully equipped BMW SUVs rival the ones you'd put in an articulated lorry!! And you need a mechanic to 'code' a new Battery to the car or it won't work properly!

[Mojo1010]

It would be a good idea for Toyota to put a bigger 12v Battery into new Yaris/X - 42-45ahr. 35ahr some people are having problems with low usage or inheritance of a poor state. Cost would be small. 

Some members will know my car is 2016 MK3 on original Battery. Were away for 9 & 8 days sept and Oct last year, came back no issue starting. Car doesn't get use everyday, though it does get good usage timewise when it is in use. 4 hrs usage yesterday visiting Wakehurst Botanic gardens in Sussex. 

[anchorman]

You can drive it for 24 hours solid but if you sit with the ignition on (not in ready) you’ll flatten the 12v Battery in the same time as topping it up in ready mode.  It’s time, not miles.  

[FROSTYBALLS]

Our petrol I20 displays a Battery warning within a couple of minutes if the engine is turned off, and the multimedia unit/sat nav is still on - so it isn't just hybrids that may have issues with the 12v Battery.

[Cyker]

48 minutes ago, Mojo1010 said:

It would be a good idea for Toyota to put a bigger 12v battery into new Yaris/X - 42-45ahr. 35ahr some people are having problems with low usage or inheritance of a poor state. Cost would be small. 

Some members will know my car is 2016 MK3 on original battery. Were away for 9 & 8 days sept and Oct last year, came back no issue starting. Car doesn't get use everyday, though it does get good usage timewise when it is in use. 4 hrs usage yesterday visiting Wakehurst Botanic gardens in Sussex. 

I'm coming round to that line of thought too, especially as we've discovered they're just normal wet cells and not AGM batteries in the new Yaris. It feels like just having that extra bit of margin would reduce the number of people posting about it significantly  

 

[Derek.w]

I replaced my 35Ah Battery with a 45Ah Battery just charge it once a month now.

Since changing the Battery I have coverd 565 miles in 2.5 Months.

[Max_Headroom]

Is that in ready mode or with a charger? 

[RickyC]

I don't think that the real issue is 35 Ah vs 45 Ah used by similar category traditional cars of other manufacturers.

I think that is due to the lower Battery recharge current.  Probably in Toyota cars it takes too much time to totally recharge the Battery so with a low usage is more easy that Battery goes flat, considering that there's a constant battery drain due to some boards that must be always on. 

Probably if they change the charging circuit to supply more current to battery the issue could be minimized.