Air conditioning issues

[M Chowdhury]

Toyota auris hybrid 63 plate.  Gas was filled for the air conditioning but still not working.  Any idea why? 

[AisinW]

What is the reason you touch the AC system on any Toyota hybrid?  They are all very durable until someone contaminate the system and grenade the scroll compressor.  The compressor is not ordinary car compressor, it works at 115V and need special oil non conductive ND11 instead of typical PAG oil in 12V system.  

We always need to vacuum the whole system for couple hours, and refill the refrigerant Pure 134Aat exact weight specs (in grams).  Someone must have dedicated hoses, connectors, valves, and gauges only for hybrid or EV car. They cannot be mixed with regular cars. 

The contaminations will cause high voltage leaks and destroy the compressor, usually you will get check engine light.   Too much refrigerant will not cool the sytem, heating instead and too low will not cool properly.  

 

[AisinW]

We cannot buy 134A refrigerant and anything in the market for private buyer is BS and Toxic to the AC system.  Only genuine 134A refrigerant will work well for Auris and older Toyota hybrid.  Newer Toyota use 1234yf refrigerant and they are not backward compatible.  

All 5 Toyotas I ever had in the past 20 years never need any service in their AC. All of them running fine beyond 200k miles/10 years.  I had evaporator and condenser failures but after 230k+ miles in hot florida weather. 

[Stivino]

2 hours ago, AisinW said:

Newer Toyota use 1234yf refrigerant and they are not backward compatible.  

It's impossible to use it, the fittings are not compatible.

[Cyker]

4 hours ago, AisinW said:

We cannot buy 134A refrigerant and anything in the market for private buyer is BS and Toxic to the AC system.  Only genuine 134A refrigerant will work well for Auris and older Toyota hybrid.  Newer Toyota use 1234yf refrigerant and they are not backward compatible.  

Really?? They sell it in Halfords here! I was using it to top up my Mk2's AC before I realized that it was more serious...

 

[FROSTYBALLS]

16 minutes ago, Cyker said:

We cannot buy 134A refrigerant and anything in the market for private buyer

Also Amazon, eBay, etc, etc sell it ......

[Auris James]

5 hours ago, M Chowdhury said:

Toyota auris hybrid 63 plate.  Gas was filled for the air conditioning but still not working.  Any idea why? 

Not the right amount of gas. Clutch not adjusted. Pressure switch faulty. Huge leak? My 2015 Auris hybrid needed a new AC condenser as leaking on bottom right behind front grille. Replaced under warranty at 30,000 miles, 6 months after buying from main dealer approved used.

Really need a proper AC specialist to take a look. Or possibly main dealer if price OK.

James

[TonyHSD]

Auris hybrid ac compressor as mentioned is electric and works from the high voltage system. If the system is contaminated it will not stop immediately but only if there is a leak into the compressor windings. If this is the case here then a new compressor will be needed. Best to scan the car for trouble codes as if it’s a compressor fault this will have stored a code. Then physical checks for leaks. AC specialist or dealer.
My system been most likely contaminated back in 2016 when I first recharge it, early days and not many places had a special machines with separate hoses , they only swapped the oil , but anyway still works fine. 👌

[AisinW]

11 hours ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

Also Amazon, eBay, etc, etc sell it ......

Ah you are right https://www.coolingpost.com/uk-news/uncertified-persons-can-buy-f-gas/

I am jealous.  it is not legal in most European country. It is legal too in USA except California. 

[AisinW]

20 minutes ago, TonyHSD said:

Auris hybrid ac compressor as mentioned is electric and works from the high voltage system. If the system is contaminated it will not stop immediately but only if there is a leak into the compressor windings. If this is the case here then a new compressor will be needed. Best to scan the car for trouble codes as if it’s a compressor fault this will have stored a code. Then physical checks for leaks. AC specialist or dealer.
My system been most likely contaminated back in 2016 when I first recharge it, early days and not many places had a special machines with separate hoses , they only swapped the oil , but anyway still works fine. 👌

Yes, if someone made a mistake putting other than ND11 and PURE 134A, they can just stop the car, pull the whole refrigerant out with vacuum pump.  Probably 3-4 hours vacuum it.  Close it, and bring it to Toyota dealership and ask for refilling the 134A or any shop who knows how to work with hybrid.  It needs uncontaminated hoses and hardwares. 

If we are in UK that we can buy 134A legally. Than just buy:

1. facuum pump $100

2. 4 hoses with gauges $40

3. 2 cans of 134A  ( we need about 1.5 cans) do not overfill it. 

4. ND11 oil (only if we open the lines or any seals) like working with condenser or evaporator. 

AC works is actually very relaxing job. It is time consuming but relatively easy. Just take your time opening, trims and part, one by one. Not so much force and yanking like suspension jobs. 

In practice, we should never top up anything on our AC system made by DENSO. The seals are really good unlike other brands.  The best practice is always, vacuum and refill it at the exact amount. Otherwise, our AC will not work effeciently.  Prius has glass bubble that we can estimate a bit how much more needed to refill after the boiling gas stop.  but I did not find the glass on Auris.

[paul9]

https://www.halfords.com/motoring/engine-oils-and-fluids/air-con/ac-pro-auto-air-conditioning-recharge---gas-r134a-264627.html

https://www.halfords.com/motoring/engine-oils-and-fluids/air-con/ac-pro-r-1234yf-air-con-recharge-212110.html

I believe these both contain PAG oil, UV dye and leak sealant, so not good for the high voltage systems.

[AisinW]

Yes, We must find the one that said PURE 134A.  I used to buy it for $4 a can in Walmart or Samsclub.  The one with oil, seals reconditioner,  and dye is dangerous on Hybrid. 

The dye for hybrid system is very special, they are diluted in ND11 oil, not PAG oil. 

The danger is from the PAG oil and probably the seals reconditioner that are not tollerant to high voltage system.  The dielectricity is too low, they are ionized at high enough Electric fields

[Stivino]

On 6/13/2023 at 8:18 AM, AisinW said:

Yes, if someone made a mistake putting other than ND11 and PURE 134A, they can just stop the car, pull the whole refrigerant out with vacuum pump.  Probably 3-4 hours vacuum it.  Close it, and bring it to Toyota dealership and ask for refilling the 134A or any shop who knows how to work with hybrid.  It needs uncontaminated hoses and hardwares. 

If we are in UK that we can buy 134A legally. Than just buy:

1. facuum pump $100

2. 4 hoses with gauges $40

3. 2 cans of 134A  ( we need about 1.5 cans) do not overfill it. 

4. ND11 oil (only if we open the lines or any seals) like working with condenser or evaporator. 

AC works is actually very relaxing job. It is time consuming but relatively easy. Just take your time opening, trims and part, one by one. Not so much force and yanking like suspension jobs. 

In practice, we should never top up anything on our AC system made by DENSO. The seals are really good unlike other brands.  The best practice is always, vacuum and refill it at the exact amount. Otherwise, our AC will not work effeciently.  Prius has glass bubble that we can estimate a bit how much more needed to refill after the boiling gas stop.  but I did not find the glass on Auris.

It's impossible to put the wrong gas in, the fittings are not compatible.

[AisinW]

2 hours ago, Stivino said:

It's impossible to put the wrong gas in, the fittings are not compatible.

It is not a wrong gas dude.  It is still the same exact 134A fitting.  Both hybrid and regular cars have exactly the same low and high pressure fitting.  It will fit without issues. the problem is the purity of the gas. Most 134A refill can we find came with add on such as seal reconditioner, stop leak,  dye, etc. that are often is not compatible with the hybrid high voltage compressor.  Those chemical are usually diluted in PAG oil. PAG oil is the lubricant in regular 12V compressor and is not compatible with HV compressor that need ND11 oil family.   

So, as long as we use PURE 134A without any additional stuffs, we are fine. 

This one is dangerous  https://www.halfords.com/motoring/engine-oils-and-fluids/air-con/a%2Fc-pro-r-134a-super-seal-air-con-stop-leak-537934.html

But this one is fine https://www.walmart.com/ip/Super-Tech-R134a-Refrigerant/738597927 and https://www.halfords.com/motoring/engine-oils-and-fluids/air-con/ac-pro-auto-air-conditioning-recharge---gas-r134a-264627.html   

[Stivino]

I believe that from January 2018, manufacturers had to move over to R1234yf gas.  Cars after that date have different fittings to cars using R132a.

[FROSTYBALLS]

R1234yf became compulsory for new cars sold within the EU from January 2017, although some manufacturers started using it beforehand (e.g. our June 2015 registered I20 used the newer gas).

[AisinW]

Yes, we move to R1234yf on all newer cars these days.  However the usage of different type of lubricant (PAG or ND11 family)  in R1234yf systems are still compatibility issues.    Only use pure refrigerant without oil if we just want to evacuate/vacuum and refill the exact factory amount. Also the equipments (gauge and hoses must not be mixed with normal cars.  That's why specialist hybrid and BEV AC service is indeed a specialist, not random mechanics understand that. 

[Cyker]

2 hours ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

R1234yf became compulsory for new cars sold within the EU from January 2017, although some manufacturers started using it beforehand (e.g. our June 2015 registered I20 used the newer gas).

I didn't realize that, I thought they just banned 134! If 1234's compulsory now, that explains why I'm not seeing any more cars using CO2...! I was wondering about that - I was hoping that would become more popular since no company has a monopoly on it like 1234

 

 

[AisinW]

We used R12 long ago pre 1990s and replaced by 134A for few decades.  It is very stable and works well. I believe Auris, Avensis, and Yaris before 2019 still use 134A.  1234yf is mainly produced by Dupont and Honeywell factory in China and USA. A kind of Monopoly that the patent is still hold on unlike older 134A. 

It is still Flourine base refrigerant but has less effect to our global warming. As bad as CO2 instead of 1000x CO2. However, it can degrade.  In atmosphere 1234yf degrades in 11 days compared to 134A 13 years. 1234yf is also flamable under hot temp and can release HF (extremely deadly gas).

Fortunately, 1234yf last long ebough before we need to evacuate and refill. Probably every 7-10 years instead of 10+ years in most 134A as long as it is still cold. What I know PHEV RAV4 Toyota needs this service every 5 years. 

It make me feel less guilty working on our own AC system.  There is no strong reason to mandate recycling 1234yf for DIY er because it warm our earth just as bad as CO2. Recycling refrigerant tank is the most expensive equipment for any mechanics. 

As per today, only 90% uses 1234yf. In developing countries the usage of 134A is still dominant. Both 134A and 1234yf are safe to our ozon unlike R12. 

@Cyker don't worry too much about 134A usages. It is still a good save refrigerant to our Ozon. It can effects global warming more but it is still nothing. We produce trillions trillions time more CO2 naturally than any leakage of 134A.  There is possibility that we will use mix of 134A and 1234yf to make it completely not flamable. 

Many decades more we will still can service 134A unlike how R12 was banned and died off.

[TonyHSD]

The risk of contamination on the hybrid AC compressor is always there if the machine has been used for standard belt drive AC compressors.
However not necessarily you will have your ac compressor damage or stop working. The risk is only present if the seals fail and gas and oil mixture enters the windings and it will make the AC compressor case conducted with 140V and a serious risk of an electric shock if you touch it, while working on the car and the car is ON and AC is ON.
 

[PCM]

On 6/12/2023 at 3:30 PM, M Chowdhury said:

Toyota auris hybrid 63 plate.  Gas was filled for the air conditioning but still not working.  Any idea why? 

Did you manage to resolve your AC issue? 

[Fostel]

On 6/13/2023 at 8:05 AM, TonyHSD said:

Auris hybrid ac compressor as mentioned is electric and works from the high voltage system. If the system is contaminated it will not stop immediately but only if there is a leak into the compressor windings. If this is the case here then a new compressor will be needed. Best to scan the car for trouble codes as if it’s a compressor fault this will have stored a code. Then physical checks for leaks. AC specialist or dealer.
My system been most likely contaminated back in 2016 when I first recharge it, early days and not many places had a special machines with separate hoses , they only swapped the oil , but anyway still works fine. 👌

The previous owner did the same. Charged AC in Halfords. I called a mobile specialist a few years later as he was aware of the ND11 oil for hybrids but still, I am not 100% sure if he did it properly using a 'clean' machine. He added UV as I wasn't aware at the time that this is not a good idea if the system work and does not leak.

A few years later the AC still works but I must say it is noisy. When the temp outside is high and the AC is on I can hear audible coil/motor wine when outside the car/ or with the bonnet open.

Is this normal? How does yours sound? Is my one dying?

[TonyHSD]

16 minutes ago, Fostel said:

The previous owner did the same. Charged AC in Halfords. I called a mobile specialist a few years later as he was aware of the ND11 oil for hybrids but still, I am not 100% sure if he did it properly using a 'clean' machine. He added UV as I wasn't aware at the time that this is not a good idea if the system work and does not leak.

A few years later the AC still works but I must say it is noisy. When the temp outside is high and the AC is on I can hear audible coil/motor wine when outside the car/ or with the bonnet open.

Is this normal? How does yours sound? Is my one dying?

Hi, yes it is normal when is very hot and sunny.
The higher load the compressor works the more noise will make.  However if it makes noise all the time it may also mean it is low on gas and will require re gas again. I had done mine twice  in the same garage on the same machine but never had any issues so far. The machine is used for both standard ac and electric ac, they only change the oil can and also add some UV. 

[Fostel]

21 minutes ago, TonyHSD said:

Hi, yes it is normal when is very hot and sunny.
The higher load the compressor works the more noise will make.  However if it makes noise all the time it may also mean it is low on gas and will require re gas again. I had done mine twice  in the same garage on the same machine but never had any issues so far. The machine is used for both standard ac and electric ac, they only change the oil can and also add some UV. 

Found the paperwork.

[TonyHSD]

6 minutes ago, Fostel said:

Found the paperwork.

Looks all ok. If the ac cools down well when it’s hot then you have nothing to worry about the usual noise, unless it’s all the time and it’s very loud. 👌