Motor rattling while driving

[Vins213]

Hello there,

when I pass from ICE to EV while driving, I clearly listen motor rattling when it turns off, like a loosen bolt...what can I check? The mec says that everything is ok

 

thanks

[anchorman]

1 hour ago, Vins213 said:

Hello there,

when I pass from ICE to EV while driving, I clearly listen motor rattling when it turns off, like a loosen bolt...what can I check? The mec says that everything is ok

 

thanks

Get somebody to cycle the heater while you’ve got the bonnet up.  You should be able to coax the engine to start and stop while you listen.  

[Vins213]

4 minutes ago, anchorman said:

Get somebody to cycle the heater while you’ve got the bonnet up.  You should be able to coax the engine to start and stop while you listen.  

already tested. the rattle sound is only when I'm driving (20-30-40kph, no matter)
when I'm driving down a hill, there is no rattle between ice on and off

I'm going to do a video on the next ride

[TonyHSD]

What is the mileage? 
Rattling on shut off can indicate blocked egr, poor quality petrol, worn out damper clutch or combination of all above. 

[Vins213]

2 minutes ago, TonyHSD said:

What is the mileage? 
Rattling on shut off can indicate blocked egr, poor quality petrol, worn out damper clutch or combination of all above. 

now: 83.000km

last service: 77.000km

last additive fuel (Bardhal): 79.700km

always in ENI or IP station with the highes petrol quality

[Vins213]

25 minutes ago, TonyHSD said:

worn out damper clutch

didn't know about that

https://priuschat.com/threads/clutch-damper-failure-engine-cutting-out.207761/

well, fortunately I don't have that terrible sound and vibrations, if I start ICE, when it shuts off it is normal with no problems...the problem comes when I'm driving up a hill or flat road doing the pulse&glide...no problems going down a hill

 

it seems like the problem gets out when the car is in torque

[TonyHSD]

The mileage is a bit too low to have a worn out clutch.
It will be better to record the rattling and share.  
Sometimes these cars get rattling from exhaust system, broken exhaust brackets and or broken heat shields., or anything else loose in the engine bay or under the car. You can do some visual checks first.
Basically the start the clutch knocking it doesn’t have to be broken, but anything that may upset the smooth engine running can load the clutch springs and make it produce a knocking sound, most common reasons are misfire as a result of bad air or fuel, or coolant or extra fuel entry into cylinders.
One tip to try is to fill up with regular petrol, don’t add any fuel additives.
See how the engine is running after that. I noticed on few occasions the engine is shutting off at higher rpm and cause some knocking noises as you have experienced. I have no explanation why but happens more often when running higher octane petrol. 

[Vins213]

8 minutes ago, TonyHSD said:

The mileage is a bit too low to have a worn out clutch.
It will be better to record the rattling and share.  
Sometimes these cars get rattling from exhaust system, broken exhaust brackets and or broken heat shields., or anything else loose in the engine bay or under the car. You can do some visual checks first.
Basically the start the clutch knocking it doesn’t have to be broken, but anything that may upset the smooth engine running can load the clutch springs and make it produce a knocking sound, most common reasons are misfire as a result of bad air or fuel, or coolant or extra fuel entry into cylinders.
One tip to try is to fill up with regular petrol, don’t add any fuel additives.
See how the engine is running after that. I noticed on few occasions the engine is shutting off at higher rpm and cause some knocking noises as you have experienced. I have no explanation why but happens more often when running higher octane petrol. 

thanks tony

I put the additive about every 10k km, and I noticed that the first full tank after putting the additive, the engine is smoother...I will try to make the video asap and do visual checks...

one important thing is that the noise is only with the car in traction (or p&g), not going downhill or warming up

[TonyHSD]

2 hours ago, Vins213 said:

thanks tony

I put the additive about every 10k km, and I noticed that the first full tank after putting the additive, the engine is smoother...I will try to make the video asap and do visual checks...

one important thing is that the noise is only with the car in traction (or p&g), not going downhill or warming up

You are welcome. 
Yes, this is when the engine shuts off and you can hear the knocking noise. The noise is very likely from the clutch plate springs that had been fully loaded for some reason. If the engine shuts off at higher rpm in certain conditions can make these noises. My car is old and high mileage 246000 and sometimes I can hear these noises when engine shuts off normally either when in motion or stationary. Perhaps it’s a normal occurrence. 

[Vins213]

3 hours ago, TonyHSD said:

You are welcome. 
Yes, this is when the engine shuts off and you can hear the knocking noise. The noise is very likely from the clutch plate springs that had been fully loaded for some reason. If the engine shuts off at higher rpm in certain conditions can make these noises. My car is old and high mileage 246000 and sometimes I can hear these noises when engine shuts off normally either when in motion or stationary. Perhaps it’s a normal occurrence. 

This is the video, S1 and you can listen clearly when the ICE shuts down...in traction the rattle is much more louder and also I feel it on the steering wheel 

[Vins213]

[TonyHSD]

Hi, 

this is the typical noise all Toyota hybrids does when the engine shuts off, it’s normal. 
However when in motion if the noise have continued a bit longer after and it’s louder is a sign of engine running rough for some reason. Poor fuel quality, oil inside intake manifold, blocked egr system, dirty fuel injectors etc. 

What basically happens is the clutch does its job and springs got fully loaded. 
There is no need to do anything. If you like you can change the petrol station and preferably fill up lower octane petrol and no additives and see how the engine is running. 

[Vins213]

13 minutes ago, TonyHSD said:

Hi, 

this is the typical noise all Toyota hybrids does when the engine shuts off, it’s normal. 
However when in motion if the noise have continued a bit longer after and it’s louder is a sign of engine running rough for some reason. Poor fuel quality, oil inside intake manifold, blocked egr system, dirty fuel injectors etc. 

What basically happens is the clutch does its job and springs got fully loaded. 
There is no need to do anything. If you like you can change the petrol station and preferably fill up lower octane petrol and no additives and see how the engine is running. 

thanks!

I noticed a few elements: when I turn on/off the heater, there is no rattle or noise. When I'm in D and I rev the engine with the brake pushed, there is no rattle or noise. When the EV Battery is totally charged, S1 has no rattle or noise.

I'll try to change petrol station, the sound comes from this way (EV Battery fully charged, no rattle or noise)

[TonyHSD]

23 minutes ago, Vins213 said:

thanks!

I noticed a few elements: when I turn on/off the heater, there is no rattle or noise. When I'm in D and I rev the engine with the brake pushed, there is no rattle or noise. When the EV battery is totally charged, S1 has no rattle or noise.

I'll try to change petrol station, the sound comes from this way (EV battery fully charged, no rattle or noise)

Yeap, it’s all good. Battery charged means less load to the engine and so easily shuts off. Your engine sounds actually very good 👍 

[Vins213]

Just now, TonyHSD said:

Yeap, it’s all good. Battery charged means less load to the engine and so easily shuts off. Your engine sounds actually very good 👍 

thanks Tony, I feel better after your words!

let's try another petrol station, anyway I'll try to make a video when the rattle is much more intense, like a transmission box ready to be changed 🤣

[TonyHSD]

One tip how to test for egr related rattling: 

Drive at quiet place slowly and discharge the hybrid Battery so engine can kick in to recharge. The engine will run at higher rpm and a bit rough, that’s normal. Now while you are driving  the car slowly at around 5mph accelerate moderately to around 15mph and release accelerator sharply like you are approaching a speed hump and at this moment the engine will change its  rpm and if you have a blocked egr system will produce nasty loud knocking noises. The noise will be like on this video. This Is when you need to clean the egr for sure or you are risking breaking the clutch springs and causing more trouble. 

 

[Vins213]

omg what a terrible sound....I'll try it, thanks! 🤞

[Vins213]

9 hours ago, TonyHSD said:

One tip how to test for egr related rattling: 

Drive at quiet place slowly and discharge the hybrid battery so engine can kick in to recharge. The engine will run at higher rpm and a bit rough, that’s normal. Now while you are driving  the car slowly at around 5mph accelerate moderately to around 15mph and release accelerator sharply like you are approaching a speed hump and at this moment the engine will change its  rpm and if you have a blocked egr system will produce nasty loud knocking noises. The noise will be like on this video. This Is when you need to clean the egr for sure or you are risking breaking the clutch springs and causing more trouble.

With this test the engine is smooth, I confirm that the rattling is ONLY when the car is on torque and I release the accelerator 

[TonyHSD]

15 hours ago, Vins213 said:

With this test the engine is smooth, I confirm that the rattling is ONLY when the car is on torque and I release the accelerator 

Nothing to worry about then. You engine is good and sounds healthy. 👍

[Vins213]

On 7/15/2023 at 9:47 AM, TonyHSD said:

What basically happens is the clutch does its job and springs got fully loaded. 

Hi, I have a question for you Tony..I have always thought that HSD doesn't have a clutch..I have seen the video posted, but how does the clutch work exactly? It's not like a clutch from a manual car I guess 

[TonyHSD]

39 minutes ago, Vins213 said:

Hi, I have a question for you Tony..I have always thought that HSD doesn't have a clutch..I have seen the video posted, but how does the clutch work exactly? It's not like a clutch from a manual car I guess 

Hi, 

this is a damper assembly to dampen the torque from the engine to the power split device and to prevent any possible damage to transmission shaft or crankshaft in an event of large torque difference.
If anything like that happens and the torque difference exceeds the clutch assembly load capacity the friction plate will slip and will prevent damage.
In any other time the damper assembly acts like dual mass flywheel and dampens the on and off of the engine and smoothen up the transition between ev and petrol.
This assembly usually lasts the lifetime of the car unless faulty, broken springs, or being contaminated with oil or water. 👍
 

[Vins213]

9 hours ago, TonyHSD said:

Hi, 

this is a damper assembly to dampen the torque from the engine to the power split device and to prevent any possible damage to transmission shaft or crankshaft in an event of large torque difference.
If anything like that happens and the torque difference exceeds the clutch assembly load capacity the friction plate will slip and will prevent damage.
In any other time the damper assembly acts like dual mass flywheel and dampens the on and off of the engine and smoothen up the transition between ev and petrol.
This assembly usually lasts the lifetime of the car unless faulty, broken springs, or being contaminated with oil or water. 👍
 

Thanks! very interesting

so there is no problems with pulley or other things, I have done another test...when I'm driving up a hill and lift the pedal quickly (from 1700-1800rpm or higher to 0), there is the rattle and noise...when I lift the pedal gently, there is no rattle or noise (the noise that makes is like a motorbike engaging a gear)

[TonyHSD]

18 minutes ago, Vins213 said:

Thanks! very interesting

so there is no problems with pulley or other things, I have done another test...when I'm driving up a hill and lift the pedal quickly (from 1700-1800rpm or higher to 0), there is the rattle and noise...when I lift the pedal gently, there is no rattle or noise (the noise that makes is like a motorbike engaging a gear)

No pulleys inside the transmission. Actually these are the best transmission ever made in any car. They have no gears, just planetary gear sets , it’s like two separate differentials combined together, one for the power sources to split the torque and one differential for the wheels to drive the car. 
You can watch this video to see what’s inside and how it works. This guy also has videos of  newer models , you can find and watch these too to see how the system has evolved through the generations. 

 

[Vins213]

how beautiful is mechanical engineering! (I'm a civil LOL)

does my dumb test match with the springs fully loaded?

 

thanks again, Tony 🖤

[JCT-DK]

Are you able to record the rattle it makes when driving uphill?