Poor performance on the 1.33L ''oil burner'. Is it game over

[Mooly]

Regulars will know of my 1.33L Auris and its taste for oil (over 10 litres added last year) and also probably remember the shocking state of the plugs from earlier in the year:

https://www.toyotaownersclub.com/forums/topic/213508-lumpy-running-133l-when-maintaining-a-constant-lower-speed/?do=findComment&comment=1709387

The performance has been very lacklustre for a long time and I'm reminded lately just how poor every time I drive our 20+yr 1.4L Corolla saloon.

Well things have got a whole lot worse the last few days... while steady speed is OK as soon as the accelerator pedal is pushed there is now quite a rough roar from seemingly the exhaust and nothing much happens acceleration wise. I was on the motorway doing 60ish and couldn't move over safely to the middle lane, dropping down to fourth and I honestly thought something was going to give and I'd be on the hard shoulder. Ease back on the accelerator and all was calm again. When you push the pedal you can feel it almost reign back on power rather than pick up. Same sort of effect coming off the gas from that state, it hesitates a few times. 

I would say currently that acceleration in third from say 30mph is far less than in 5th in the Corolla. There is a moderate hill on a main road nearby (only perhaps 250 metre in length, not height) and foot to the floor doing 30mph in 3rd and its only managed about 32mph at the top. The Corolla would be doing more like 60mph at the top and it can and does easily pull away in 5th on this incline.

My suspicion is that the cat may be blocked/melted/clogged from the earlier plug episode and obvious detonation. Idle is fine, economy seems OK (normal) and if I rev it in neutral it spins up to the red line cleanly and quietly. It is under load where it all goes pear shaped.

Booked in for next week for investigation (not at Toyota).

[flash22]

If its burnt that much oil, the rings are screwed and the bores are glazed to *&^*^, it will be way down on compression, not getting on top of the issue has wrecked that engine at a minimum it needs the bottom end rebuilt IF it can be saved

 

The end is nigh

It's going to drop all its compression, seize up and/or throw a rod

[Mooly]

Hmmm... that doesn't sound good... 

If that ends up being the outcome then I certainly wouldn't spend or even contemplate a rebuild. I know apart from this it is in terrific condition but even so... I just can't see me going down that route. I believe I've read in the bulletins somewhere that the only recommended repair for the oil consumption according to Toyota was new short motor.

Thanks for your thoughts though.   

[flash22]

A short block is an easier solution for a main dealer, Piston, Rings and Rods and de-glaze the bore (best practice is to bore and hone to the next oversize)

As you are aware the carbon seizes the oil control ring this lead to oil passing the rings that can cause the up ring to go sharp on the edged (think knife edge) this can wear the bore and the oil passing can slip the bore, smoothing out the cross hatch hone

[Mooly]

I dread to think how much carbon might be in there. I'll just have to wait and see what the outcome is. Its a shame if it ends this way though.

I had been able to 'improve' the oil consumption moderately significantly these last few weeks by deliberately not using engine breaking (edit... appropriate choice of word LOL I mean braking) and coasting instead, something I remember my driving instructor all those years ago pulling me up on. 

(I had a new short motor fitted to a brand new 'F' reg 1.3 (or 1.4) Astra back in the late 80's. That was a company car and it smoked badly from day one. Oil consumption twice as bad as the Auris is now. Garage did a leak through test and said one of the bores was oval and not round. It just went straight through they said. To be fair it was really good after repair although the block had not been lacquered or painted and first time in the rain and the whole lump turned to rust, not that it had any effect and the cars were on an 11 month lease cycle in any case. Sold on as under 1yr old)

[AisinW]

Toyota burning oil is mainly caused by extended oil change interval. Ideally for problematic oil burning engine, 5k miles/6 months interval if we drive mainly in city. 

The head valve guides rarely leak but the piston rings are often caked up with carbon on certain engines. 

You should check with scope how bad the cylinder wall and valves are before doing any repairs. 

So, if you have another car, start doing  5-8k miles/8 months oil change interval unless you use certified Longlife oil 506/507 or 508/509 that is more stable than standard Toyota API SN oil. Or get Vauxhaul original Dexos 1 Gen3 Oil. 

There is no point saving 4L oil every year but unfter 5-6 years you start dumping oil 10L every year because of lack oil change. Oil burning is the culprit of all problems in Prius3 and Auris 2010-2014. It leads to clogged EGR valve, intake manifold, head gasket, and catalytic converter.  Some 2.5L Toyota also suffer from oil burning. 

[TonyHSD]

There couldn’t be one more thing after all of the oil that has been burned the catalytic converter might be blocked to the point that can’t let exhaust out and cause lack of power. 
I feel for you as we all know your Auris is one of if not the best one and best preserved from that era.
Given the current car prices and availability new or old I think it would be worth it spending few grands and replace the engine or rebuild, whatever is the better option. 

[Mooly]

Thanks Tony. I'll hopefully know early next week what the state of play is. I honestly still think it is a blocked exhaust (everything fits symptom wise) and that it should be 'fixable' which at least allows a bit of wiggle room to think what to do next.

I'm sure the hotter plugs Toyota now supply plus E10 petrol haven't helped. My usage also tends to be 'long and fast', motorway and A roads rather than pootling around town. We'll see. I should hopefully know early next week.

4 hours ago, AisinW said:

Toyota burning oil is mainly caused by extended oil change interval. Ideally for problematic oil burning engine, 5k miles/6 months interval if we drive mainly in city. 

Thanks 🙂 To be honest short run low milage town driving is the one thing it doesn't really get. From new it has had what should be perfect operating use, long runs at moderate speeds where it is all fully up to temperature. 

All this oil burning is quite well documented for this engine.

[Mooly]

Found it...

This is quite interesting:

 

[TonyHSD]

2 hours ago, Mooly said:

Found it...

This is quite interesting:

 

Lol, this video and it’s creator are real treasure 👌 

I am thinking you may have a very similar issues with your car. Good diagnostics like on the video are must do first steps. 
Good luck 

[Mooly]

1 hour ago, TonyHSD said:

Good luck 

Thanks.

It was interesting to see in the video how it was the rear of the cat that was damaged/disintegrated in that video, I would never have thought that tbh.

[AisinW]

@Mooly I am sorry to hear that. So, it is just a bad design like early  2ZZ 1.8L engine with too small and too few oil return hole and low tension piston rings.   We need to account the cost of catalytic converter replacement, the whole engine overhaul, etc. The best solution is replace the whole short block if the head is still good and Toyota indeed revised the cylinder and rings.  Otherwise, time to move on.  

It is a kind of plague that come and go about Toyota burning oil engines. 1998-2002 1.8 2ZZ,  pre-2006 1.6 L,   1.3 L ,  2007-2010 2.4 L, 2010-2014 2ZR.  All of those are caused by low tension piston rings design.  Some 2.5L also develop oil consumption if the owner do extended oil change interval 1y/10k miles.  However, the V6 2GR-FE or 2GR-FXE are kind of imune to oil consumption. 

[Mooly]

8 hours ago, AisinW said:

Otherwise, time to move on.  

Thanks for your thoughts. I think we might be approaching the point of moving on all things considered. Cost has to be considered in terms of how long a fix like a new exhaust etc is likely to last before the same happens again. If it would go another 20 or 30k then it is worth spending £1k or so. It would also be saleable.

  

 

[TonyHSD]

Honestly, if £1000 and new exhaust make the car drive as good as before and last you for another 30k miles could be worth the expense. Used cars these days are garbage even those which are only few years old, not to think about older cars. The times you can buy a reasonably good and cheap car £1000-£3000 are over, now even £5000 won’t buy you much. 
https://www.mister-auto.co.uk/exhaust-system/?page=3

[YarisHybrid2016]

Why would long motorway runs be bad for it?

[Mooly]

50 minutes ago, TonyHSD said:

Honestly, if £1000 and new exhaust make the car drive as good as before and last you for another 30k miles could be worth the expense.

Worth the expense and gives me wiggle room to decide what to do and what to replace with. Its size Tony that is the issue as it garaged. Hyundai Bayon has caught my eye more than once. 

I've even set out sizes. The Carina II Carina E and original Audi A4 all fit in the garage. Added the Cortina for comparison of how big (wide) things have got.

 

51 minutes ago, TonyHSD said:

not to think about older cars.

Well I've still got the ancient 1.4L Corolla Saloon. This one, you'll remember:

https://www.toyotaownersclub.com/forums/topic/211547-a-new-year-and-mot-time-for-the-20-gulp-year-old-corolla/#comment-1685811

In fact its done a few decent long runs this last week. Both times up to the northern lake district and then off the beaten track. Lots and lots of motorway... flying machine, the performance is incredible for what it is. ULEZ compliant to apparently LOL.

12 minutes ago, YarisHybrid2016 said:

Why would long motorway runs be bad for it?

Well they shouldn't be by all conventional thinking but they do generate high exhaust temperatures. It has had by conventional wisdom the most charmed and perfect life as far as engine life should be concerned while the Corolla has had what is the absolute worst. Short infrequent runs, often not up to temperature and often not used for days or even a week or two at a time. A few years ago and it did only 500 miles in a year. Oil consumption is zero and its had one Battery way back in 2012 plus discs and pads and also one front brake calliper around 6 years ago. That's it, no other mechanical parts in over 20 years.  

[YarisHybrid2016]

A shame.

[Mooly]

Yup, that's about the sum of it. 

[TonyHSD]

Honestly, try a hybrid Toyota and you won’t think of anything else.
These are the best cars that runs on petrol. So smooth, so quiet and performance is respectful. If a new Corolla hatchback doesn’t fit in, the new Yaris or Yaris cross will be the perfect replacement and these are even more efficient than a Prius. 👌
 

[Mooly]

4 hours ago, TonyHSD said:

If a new Corolla hatchback doesn’t fit in,

Well... it will fit but its tight. The opening (door pillars) are offset to to the left in practice and so I am normally tight to the left wall and with room on the right.

That brilliant website called:

AUTOMOBILE DIMENSIONS

Has a parking simulator (top right on the options) and this shows the Auris and Corolla. The actual garage width is a fraction more than the options I selected (nearest figures below actual).

 

 

We'll see. Diagnosis first on the Auris.

[AisinW]

1 hour ago, Mooly said:

Well... it will fit but its tight. The opening (door pillars) are offset to to the left in practice and so I am normally tight to the left wall and with room on the right.

That brilliant website called:

AUTOMOBILE DIMENSIONS

Has a parking simulator (top right on the options) and this shows the Auris and Corolla. The actual garage width is a fraction more than the options I selected (nearest figures below actual).

 

 

We'll see. Diagnosis first on the Auris.

It reminds me of a new Giant houses complex that offer way too  small size garage for today standard.  I am not sure what the investor/contractor think offering houses with very narrow and low garage.  People should think that at least Lexus RX or VW Transporter can fit.  I prefer a garage that can fit 2020 Toyota Sienna Hybrid Minivan.  

This Housing agents drop the price more than 30% in 2 years because no one want to buy it from pretty simple reason. The garage are too small and inconvinient for €0.8 M,  3 bedrooms houses.

Back to car, you should try a Hybrid Auris if the budget allows. I suggest production time post Nov 2014, or facelift model if you want oil consumption free car. It has very low maintenance (practically only oil change+ filters  cleaning)

[Mooly]

Hardly anyone seems to use garages these days but you are right, new build houses often have ridiculously small offerings.

I'm waiting for the verdict on the Auris, its been looked at now... but I accept its time with me is now very limited and there is no way its going to last that much longer with this fundamental oil burning issue. One step at a time at the moment. I have the Corolla to fall back on and that is OK MOT wise until early next year. 

For looks (and I can hear everyone saying "Well good luck with that one") and I think the Citroen C4 looks good. I've spoken to owners with newish Citroens and they say they have been excellent with no issues. I think I also have to get out of the mindset of buying and hanging on to a car for so long, particularly now as the technology is so fast moving.

  

 

 

 

[TonyHSD]

Newer Citroens and French cars in general not only some of them look good but they drives good too and gives that premium German car feeling, they are smooth, quiet and refined. However here is all good and from then it’s all bad. If you are planning to buy via any company schemes , any financing and keep for only 3 years or so yes some of them can be a good choice especially if bought at a good price/ deal, but of you pay your own money and plans are to keep longer there are no better cars than Toyota hybrids. If you haven’t tried yet one, you should really. 
Just book chose a model that fits your garage and book a test drive. Tell the dealer rep you need to drive more like 20 min or more, try town drives and then motorway, try in traffic jams, just different situations and see if you like it. Some people does not like them but some does indeed.
I don’t want to push or try to force my opinion on you or anyone else reading my bs, but honestly Toyota Hybrids drives very nice and last long with minimal maintenance and money spent., what more we can ask for. I wish we were close by and I can give you to test drive my car to see if you like it. If for any personal reason other than garage size you don’t want a hybrid then this C4 you had share is a good car indeed.  👍

[AisinW]

In general, Citroen, PSA uses many Toyota technology. Especielly the 8 speed automatic transmission and the hybrid systems. In exchange, Toyota have diesel van/cars from PSA.   Personally, I will never go back from hybrid to conventional gasoline engines or diesel (with expensive DPF and aftertreatment systems).  The power delivery on 2023 Corolla are even better on the 1.8L and 2.0L model.  It feels more EV like because of the MG2 is stronger now.  The main benefit is the high resale value and make any Hybrid Toyota effectively the ceapest car to own.  We have 15 years hybrid Battery warranty option after 5th years standard Hybrid system warranty is over. 

Maintenance is cheap too, just oil changes and cabin and Battery filter cleaning yearly. Other fluid (coolant and ATF) is recommended to be replaced after 10 years/100k miles  and 15 years/150k miles for the inverter and transmission.  PSA has some hybrid too but only offered for SUV and heavy cars. 

Always keep in mind, Cheap or Expensive = Buying Price - Resale Price + Maintenance + Repairs.    I think 3-5 years old with 70-140k miles HSD are considered to be the best values at this moment. It does not plummet after 10 years like most BEV. Many people thought Chinese BEV are great value but actually those are the most expensive cars in the market with has no resale value. 

[Mooly]

4 hours ago, TonyHSD said:

Newer Citroens and French cars in general not only some of them look good but they drives good too and gives that premium German car feeling, they are smooth, quiet and refined.

Thanks Tony. I've experienced premium German 'reliability' in the past with two Audi's. I vowed never again to buy another German car ever. The ride quality and 'apparent' build quality was great but the real world build quality and design was appalling 🙂 

4 hours ago, TonyHSD said:

keep for only 3 years or so yes some of them can be a good choice especially if bought at a good price/ deal, but of you pay your own money and plans are to keep longer there are no better cars than Toyota hybrids.

I'm sure I wouldn't look at keeping any new car for anywhere near as long as I have in the past. 

 

2 hours ago, AisinW said:

In general, Citroen, PSA uses many Toyota technology. Especielly the 8 speed automatic transmission and the hybrid systems.

I didn't know that, interesting...

 

2 hours ago, AisinW said:

Personally, I will never go back from hybrid to conventional gasoline engines or diesel (with expensive DPF and aftertreatment systems). 

Funny you mention that...

So latest update on the Auris is that they have done a lot tests, unbelievably it passed an emissions test straight off with a perfect score (first thing they wanted to check). Exhaust system has been dismantled and some kind of smoke machine used to check throughput... and somewhere there is a blockage. No signs of damage or overheating from what was visible looking at the cat but it is blocked.

They called the front section the 'manicat, a phrase I'd never heard before and presumably the one straight off the manifold and that seems to be where the restriction is. Apparently one of the techs said there was nothing to loose by sticking it on some machine they use on problem diesel vehicles. It literally washes the cat. A load of crud came out and it seems to be free flowing after that... and that is where we are up to. They did say it is something they use on Diesels and it is cat safe. There was nothing to lose.

We'll discuss it more tomorrow when they test it further. As they said, if...and it is an if??? it's now OK then its a considerably cheaper fix at this point. A new 'manicat' was quoted at around £470 for an original and about £300 ish for an aftermarket. They felt genuine probably best but to see what tomorrow brings.