Khan Can

[Bper]

Britons fear that London could become the world’s first car-free city after Mayor Sadiq Khans’s ULEZ crackdown.

According to a recent survey by bike subscription service Swapfiets Britons think London will beat the likes of China, Europe, and Saudi Arabia to become the first city without cars passing through it.

 

 

[Big_D]

I want to call him a certain word, but it would be !Removed!

 

[Big_D]

1 hour ago, Haliotis said:

it seems that many drivers have no pride in their driving skills,

Nowadays, new drivers are taught to pass their test, rather than to "Drive". This can be clearly seen in the manner of their driving.

[Cyker]

It's not all their fault; They're taught to drive in a way that would work in an idealized fairy world, but most of them cotton on quite quickly after passing their test that trying to drive like that in the real world will just get them honked at and put in danger, so they have to essentially relearn what works and what doesn't by themselves (And possibly with friend or parental input!).

Even my instructor's parting words to me were something like, Congratulations on passing the test, now you can *really* learn how to drive!

That said the good instructors prepare them better, so they can get a head start on things like developing the 'psychic prediction powers' as I like to call them.

You can usually spot some poor sod from out of town who's passed their test in the countryside and have only just come into London for the first time, and are used to big safe gaps in traffic to emerge into and now has to quickly up their game in judging distance and speed of oncoming vehicles and their ability to accelerate their car from a standstill to get into a much smaller gap in traffic or be stuck at the junction forever!

Even I'm still the Friend Taxi because most of my mates who live outside London refuse to drive here because they've seen all the  I have to deal with  

[Guest]

14 hours ago, AndyN01 said:

I'm very happy to debate speed and skill.

I totally agree that the current standard is clearly lacking and there should be much higher driver skill but as everyone has "passed their test" (yes I realise some/many haven't) everyone is already "up to the current standard." So, is that standard failing "us" and do we need a new standard?

In any case as this is a thread about then ULEZ perhaps it should have one of its own?

 

I didn't divert this thread into this topic, I just replied to the ongoing discussion where someone had mentioned 'speed doesn't kill' and had a bit of an eye roll.

13 hours ago, Cyker said:

Definitely not as simple as that - I'd argue it requires far more skill to drive through the highly congested suicidal pedestrian/cyclist/scooter-ridden London roads I regularly do at 20mph, than it does to drive at 70mph on the motorway.

It's so easy to drive at 70mph on the motorway even 1st generation car AI's can do it, but put them in my London roads and I bet they'd be in an accident almost immediately.

So obviously it's not that clear cut;

It's all situational - This is why I've been saying all along, you can't just change the speed limit on a road by sticking signs up; The road has to be DESIGNED for that speed, then the majority of drivers will naturally speed up or slow down to how that road is designed.

I agree, of course what I said was just responding to that one guy who kept saying 'speed doesn't kill' and him saying that with the right skill/training it's perfectly safe. My point was just that most of us on the road aren't even up to the basic standard of following the rules, let alone raising speed limits tomorrow and just presuming it'll be fine 🙂  

Speed isn't the only thing that would take skill, I totally agree with you in that being on a motorway going 70 or maybe even above wouldn't take too much skill. I am guessing the other guy was hinting at speed limits everywhere being raised, so on country roads or in urban 30 zones, I would equally say that it's downright dangerous to increase speed. After all, even the most qualified driver in the world can't anticipate someone opening a door, or a child running out to catch a ball from between two cars.  

Of course urban congested start/stop roads with a lot going on constantly takes skill and experience too. And a lot of patience. 

I agree, it's not clear cut at all.  My response was just to that other point of 'speed doesn't kill' as I found that a bit bizarre for someone to say as whilst it might technically be true, it's akin to other arguments I'd call a bit silly, such as 'guns don't kill', you know? 

 

[AndyN01]

3 hours ago, SB1500 said:

I didn't divert this thread into this topic, I just replied to the ongoing discussion where someone had mentioned 'speed doesn't kill' and had a bit of an eye roll.

I agree, of course what I said was just responding to that one guy who kept saying 'speed doesn't kill' and him saying that with the right skill/training it's perfectly safe.

Please quote where I said that with the right skill/training it's perfectly safe......

My point was just that most of us on the road aren't even up to the basic standard of following the rules, let alone raising speed limits tomorrow and just presuming it'll be fine 🙂  

Speed isn't the only thing that would take skill, I totally agree with you in that being on a motorway going 70 or maybe even above wouldn't take too much skill. I am guessing the other guy was hinting at speed limits everywhere being raised....

Where did I hint that speed limits should be raised??

so on country roads or in urban 30 zones, I would equally say that it's downright dangerous to increase speed. After all, even the most qualified driver in the world can't anticipate someone opening a door, or a child running out to catch a ball from between two cars.

Have in good read of "Roadcraft" that anticipation is exactly the things that every driver should anticipate. 

Of course urban congested start/stop roads with a lot going on constantly takes skill and experience too. And a lot of patience.

I agree, it's not clear cut at all.  My response was just to that other point of 'speed doesn't kill' as I found that a bit bizarre for someone to say as whilst it might technically be true, it's akin to other arguments I'd call a bit silly, such as 'guns don't kill', you know? 

Please tell me at what speed the speed IN ITSELF kills or how a gun, left sitting in a cupboard, kills.

 

Please see my additions to the quoted text (in bold italic).

I'm afraid that I don't think I've got the point across.

It's about the "message" that speed kills which is shown to be false every time someone goes over the "speed limit" and therefore makes the message "cry wolf" which leads to it (and many more) signs/signals/information being ignored with potentially disastrous consequences.

I look forward to your reply.

Andy

 

 

 

 

[Yugguy1970]

Even with a fully trained rally or race driver behind the wheel, in the best car in the world, doing 60mph through a town centre isn't a good idea.

A couple of weeks ago I was in my daughter's Yaris, going down Alwyn Road at 330pm, school kids everywhere.  A youth (bury them at 7 and dig up at 35) decided 30mph wasn't fast enough, floored it past me and carried on accelerating.  When he came to the BLIND bend further down the back end went out and very skilfully he managed to get it back.  Mind you he nearly hit a van on the other side, and if a child had been crossing he'd have killed them.  So, he may have been skilled enough to get round that corner but he was still going too fast.

When we go back to Wales, Anglesey which I'm sure we will in the future, in the towns I'll stick the limiter on 20 and bimble.

[AndyN01]

2 hours ago, Yugguy1970 said:

Even with a fully trained rally or race driver behind the wheel, in the best car in the world, doing 60mph through a town centre isn't a good idea.

 

I'm being deliberately provocative here and playing Devils advocate....

Ever been to the Monaco GP? Or Melbourne? Or Circuit Gilles-Villeneuve?

Or the "race" in Birmingham a few decades ago?

Or any other "street" circuit where public roads are closed off for racing?

I'm sure you see my point.

But.... look at the amount of safety measures and lack of vehicle numbers and lack of pedestrians etc. etc.  that are put in place to allow racing speeds that are not there for the public using the same piece of tarmac. So the appropriate speeds are hugely different because the number of hazards is different as is the level of skill.

Andy.

PS If you could ask the driver who controlled the slide what do you think their answer would be to the question of their speed?

[Cyker]

I'd say the driver in question is the definition of the sort of bad drivers the authorities should be targeting and retraining and/or removing!

Driving is a privilege and licences should revoked from people who repeatedly abuse said privilege, until they prove they're sensible and mentally mature enough to deserve it.

In my ideal fantasy world, you could set a 60mph speed limit through a town and it wouldn't be a problem, because every driver would be sane and sensible enough to NOT drive 60mph through it. Of course this is never going to work in the real world, but that level of driver skill/awareness/word-i-cant-think-of is what we should be aiming at achieving, instead of what we're doing now, which is turning everyone into mindless obedient zombies.

To be fair, I don't know if this is a symptom or a cause - I feel people in general have been getting stupider over the years and common sense is definitely no longer common, but are all these sorts of changes the cause, or a reaction to try and save society from their increasing idiocy...?

 

[Yugguy1970]

I don't think the driver of the car in question cared about anything but himself and his own gratification.  

I just wish I had been in my Rav with the Dashcam.

[Rhymes with Paris]

Well, the kids round here dart out between parked cars on the road,on foot and on electric scooters, trikes etc.

The parents seem to think this is ok, and the responsibility is for drivers to keep the kids safe, rather than supervise and look after them properly.

It's hazardous to say the least,of course no one sane wishes to have a collision with them,or anything else.

No speed limit is safe in these circumstances, just common sense.

I have to go at 10 mph or less approaching my house to give me chance to stop if this happens, while some are speed testing their banging, popping,mo'ahs to see if they can get to 60 mph in the short cul-de-sac.

So stupidity is the danger, IMHO.

 

[ISL]

12 hours ago, Cyker said:

To be fair, I don't know if this is a symptom or a cause - I feel people in general have been getting stupider over the years and common sense is definitely no longer common, but are all these sorts of changes the cause, or a reaction to try and save society from their increasing idiocy...?

 

[Yugguy1970]

Well if Chris Rea is going to the Welsh coast for Christmas, he'd better set off now.

[Yugguy1970]

My daughter is taking her test today.

We live in a world where people have to be reminded to bring a car.

https://www.gov.uk/driving-test/what-to-take

[Bper]

42 minutes ago, Yugguy1970 said:

My daughter is taking her test today.

We live in a world where people have to be reminded to bring a car.

https://www.gov.uk/driving-test/what-to-take

My friend told me he'd failed his driving test for running over a rabbit.

I said they can't fail you for that, he said they can when it's in the butcher's window.😂

 

I remember my driving test when the examiner asked me if I can read the number plate of the car in front and I replied what car?😂

 

[Yugguy1970]

She passed, woohoo.

[Rhymes with Paris]

10 hours ago, Yugguy1970 said:

My daughter is taking her test today.

We live in a world where people have to be reminded to bring a car.

https://www.gov.uk/driving-test/what-to-take

A while ago when I used to do CBT on motorbikes, some turned up with bikes that could not start the engine.

Some turned up with no complete driving licence, two part in those days.

Some even turned up with their brain missing.

Pleased your daughter passed, congratulations to her.🙂

[Haliotis]

Every motorist. Seems to think that he/she is the best driver on the roads.  The worst of these are those who do something stupid, then gesticulate/mouthe their annoyance to prove that they [the idiots] are in the right.

Whilst drivers in general perceive that they are already at their very best, and that they never  make mistakes, then the roads will never be as safe as they could be, and drivers will continue to create excuses for governments to progressively add on more penalising rules with which to boost the Treasury coffers!

[Bper]

1 hour ago, Haliotis said:

Every motorist. Seems to think that he/she is the best driver on the roads.  The worst of these are those who do something stupid, then gesticulate/mouthe their annoyance to prove that they [the idiots] are in the right.

Whilst drivers in general perceive that they are already at their very best, and that they never  make mistakes, then the roads will never be as safe as they could be, and drivers will continue to create excuses for governments to progressively add on more penalising rules with which to boost the Treasury coffers!

Is this arrogance,self entitlement or the me me society that these drivers espire to. It has definitely got worse and it is across all generations regretfully.☹️

[Rhymes with Paris]

1 hour ago, Haliotis said:

The worst of these are those who do something stupid, then gesticulate/mouthe their annoyance to prove that they [the idiots] are in the right.

Ain't that the truth.

I have never seen a good/careful driver do that ever, even when cut up.

It's always as you say, the idiots who get mad with others for their own mistakes and carelessness.

A old workmate of mine told me a story about when he was traveling through Cheshire for work, with another worker who was driving the van.

Apparently he (the driver of the van) cut up a car at a roundabout and then gesticulated and shouted at the other driver.

Well this other driver was a pumped up steroid monkey with severe anger issues.

Jumped out of his car and got to the van door while the van driver was getting out, slammed his head with the van door a good few times, and drove off.

The moral of the story being it is never a good idea to get involved in road rage, you just don't know what your going to have to deal with.

 

[Haliotis]

The best tale I ever heard was spoken by a work colleague.  He was driving to work when, in traffic, his car suddenly broke down.  Within seconds, a driver behind him started blaring on his horn.  My colleague (ex-Para) got out of his car, went up to the horn blower, and said, “You see if you can start my car, and I’ll blow your horn for you while you sort it.”

[Bper]

Mark Drakeford  failed to rule out the introduction of charging schemes on Wales' busiest roads as the First Minister was quizzed over his future plans.

Speaking in the Senedd, he did not deny the Welsh Government could pursue schemes similar to the Ultra Low Emission Zone (ULEZ) across London.

But the First Minister stressed these would only be implemented as a 'fall-back' option if other measures failed to tackle air pollution.

Mr Drakeford is currently facing a backlash after Wales recently became the first country in the UK to drop the default speed limit from 30mph to 20mph for restricted roads.

 

[Haliotis]

With Rishi Sunak making all kinds of ‘U-turns’ regarding the motoring public - from delaying the ban on new fossil fuelled cars, to stopping any further expansion of the 20mph speed limit - who knows where we will be after 2024?  The results of the upcoming General Election leaves a massive number of possible variables - I dread the thoughts of the extremists getting power due to a low turnout.  We know from past experience that the extremists always vote. Is t’s no use in bleating about a bad result after the event, so for this election it is more than ever imperative that everyone entitled to vote makes that extra effort to put their X in the most sensible box.

[Bper]

1 hour ago, Haliotis said:

With Rishi Sunak making all kinds of ‘U-turns’ regarding the motoring public - from delaying the ban on new fossil fuelled cars, to stopping any further expansion of the 20mph speed limit - who knows where we will be after 2024?  The results of the upcoming General Election leaves a massive number of possible variables - I dread the thoughts of the extremists getting power due to a low turnout.  We know from past experience that the extremists always vote. Is t’s no use in bleating about a bad result after the event, so for this election it is more than ever imperative that everyone entitled to vote makes that extra effort to put their X in the most sensible box.

The thing is Albert what is the most sensible box.?😏

[Basil-BarryC]

2 hours ago, Bper said:

The thing is Albert what is the most sensible box.?😏

Agreed and will the London tree huggers vote Khan in again so he can further expand his ULEZ boundaries