Khan Can

[Bper]

6 hours ago, Paul john said:

Oh i see. Ill just ignore the BBC reporting only warning letters have been issued and trust the Daily Snail. Thanks for the info. 

Well they do say don't believe everything you read, but the Mail was just one paper that reported this, but a number of other media sources have reported the same figures and these I assume can't all be wrong. 👍

 

[Bper]

3 hours ago, Yugguy1970 said:

They'd find something else to complain about I'm sure.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/sep/08/us-open-2023-semi-final-climate-protester-glues-feet

I'd have just left them there glued to the floor and gone home.

I would of glued their legs apart used them for serving practice and then asked for new balls please.😂

[Haliotis]

Much better to use tenpin bowling balls!

[Bper]

Fake number plates and Stealth tape are being used by drivers to avoid the ULEZ charge. 

Fake number plates can be bought for as little as £10 from any of the 40,000 largely unregulated sellers while reflective “stealth” tape to make plates invisible to ANPR infrared cameras can be purchased online for just £80.😎

[Bper]

The London Borough of Bromley has responded to reports that mobile Transport for London (TfL) vehicles deployed to catch out Ulez rule breakers have been parking on verges in the borough, by warning them they will be hit with £130 fines if they carry on.

well what's good for the goose as they say.😂

[STANLEY82]

On 9/8/2023 at 4:28 PM, Bper said:

Fake number plates and Stealth tape are being used by drivers to avoid the ULEZ charge. 

Fake number plates can be bought for as little as £10 from any of the 40,000 largely unregulated sellers while reflective “stealth” tape to make plates invisible to ANPR infrared cameras can be purchased online for just £80.😎

My sisters friend number plate was cloned. She's received loadsa fines for ULEZ, bus lanes and parking. Understandable she is really stressed and from what I know, TFL have not been very helpful.

Distinctive window car stickers and NP anti-theft screws will help >>>

 

https://www.halfords.com/motoring/car-security/richbrook-anti-theft-number-plate-bolts-794669.html

[Big_D]

Why would they be helpful? They still want their money! 

Of course it’s going to be a stressful time for your sister. They will still want payment, even though it wasn’t her car. Has she reported the cloning to the Police? If she has a case number, she could let TFL have this.
It probably wouldn’t help, as they would still need someone to pay. It’s all about the money at the end of the day. 

I do hope she gets it resolved. 

ULEZ = Legal extortion

 

[Bper]

Whilst the recent court case that was brought and lost against the introduction of the expansion of the ULEZ by a number of councils, this Thursday a further court case is taking place so it will be interesting to see the outcome of this.⚖️

[DerekHa]

7 hours ago, STANLEY82 said:

My sisters friend number plate was cloned. She's received loadsa fines for ULEZ, bus lanes and parking. Understandable she is really stressed and from what I know, TFL have not been very helpful.

Distinctive window car stickers and NP anti-theft screws will help >>>

 

https://www.halfords.com/motoring/car-security/richbrook-anti-theft-number-plate-bolts-794669.html

Hi Ian,

Just been reading through the latest posts and came across yours. Cloned plates are nothing new at all they've been in use by the "people" who give don't a ***** about others for many years now. ULEZ is just another lucrative excuse for unscrupless traders to offer these or for people to even modify their own number plates to confuse the Police, enforcement camera's and now TFL.

My advise for your sisters friend is to contact the Police, they should at least create an incident number on their Command and Control system especially if she has multiple fines that she hasn't incurred as evidence. Better still if she has the evidence to show she's recieving the fines will be to ask the Police to update the Police National Computer with what's called an information report to the effect there is another vehicle being used with her registration plates but that may be more difficult.

She can quote the incident number to TFL or their agents trying to collect the fines. TFL have access to the shared DVLA/PNC data base and it should show up when TFL check the registration number. Don't ignore the fines as they won't go away unlike some of the other shyster's involved in parking on private property and car parks.

[Haliotis]

I have just been reading a BBC news item about a scooter owner whose plates were cloned.  He eventually bought personalised plates, but it was not long before he was targeted again.  This suggests to me that the cloner lived close enough to have visual awareness of the victim.

Apart from the obvious precautions (e.g., tamperproof fixings for the reg plate), the attachment of something unique to your vehicle - not immediately obvious, but recognisable on cameras - could be a useful tool.

[Cyker]

12 hours ago, STANLEY82 said:

My sisters friend number plate was cloned. She's received loadsa fines for ULEZ, bus lanes and parking. Understandable she is really stressed and from what I know, TFL have not been very helpful.

The most important thing she needs to do is report to both the police and the DVLA that her plates have been cloned; They will put a marker on her registration so that they're aware it's been cloned.

This plus supporting evidence should be enough to get you out if the fines and such - TFL especially will not make it easy, as this is a revenue stream for them and unlike e.g. private parking companies like NCP they have no oversight or codes of conduct they have to adhere to (Well, technically they do, but they make the code of conduct for themselves, so...), so perseverance is key.

I forget the whole speil but this is a recurring common problem every time they introduce some new stupid restriction that relies on ANPR (The first big spike of it was the introduction of the original London congestion zone, then I also heard of people getting theirs done when the Dartford crossing became ANPR, then when boroughs became increasingly controlled parking, then when the first ULEZ expansion happened, then with the LTNs, and now the 2nd expansion!)

This is also one of the reasons I got a Dashcam and a massive memory card for it, as it makes it much easier to prove I wasn't the guilty party if it ever happens to me!

 

[Bper]

I think cloning has become a big issue and is certainly more widespread  since the increase in insurance costs, petrol, traffic fines and  household bills.

Many motorists are running cars on a shoestring and looking for ways to avoid additional costs.

How many times do you hear of motorist's filling up with petrol and then driving off without paying. When the video is played back and the license plate identified it ends up eventually with the poor legitimate license plate holder having to deal with the issue and sending evidence that it was not their vehicle.

It's not just the criminal fraternity that are doing this but ordinary drivers. Unfortunately it will only continue to get worse if costs continue to rise.☹️

[Rhymes with Paris]

I see a couple of posts advising tamper proof fixings on the cloned number plate issue.

Have I misunderstood this problem?

I thought the main method of cloning plates was to spot a car the same model and colour, and then get them made up at an unauthorised place for a tenner.

Not physically remove them.

Whichever way the low lifes use though, my sympathy to those to whom this happens,it must be a nightmare, the cliche of having to prove innocence, rather than the burden of proof being on the accuser.

Hello Cyker, also how does dash cam footage prove that your car was not the one on a ANPR if your plates were cloned?

Not being critical, but I don't get the logic.

I have an aftermarket dash cam, mainly to protect myself against lemming e scooter riders and similar nutters swinging onto the road without looking.

So by the same token if I presented my dash cam footage as defence if heaven forbid one of those claimed against me, how could I prove that all parties were at that location at that time, and not some other camera footage.

Unlikely I know, and my thinking is a bit muddled on this 😵‍💫, and yes a lot easier to prove a positive than a negative, but how does it prove your or my car was not there.

 

[Cyker]

The hope is I'd be in a totally different location, so the GPS coordinates and timestamps on the Dashcam could help show this, plus I'd be able to corroborate that by getting a statement from the site I was at (Which the Dashcam would also help remind me of!) to show I couldn't possibly have been at this other location.

 

That said, there's a good chance the cloned plate wouldn't even match the vehicle - This is especially common for people trying to evade the ULEZ, as they'll e.g. clone a Prius plate and stick it on a white van, and as long as they don't get done for some other offence that results in a letter being sent to the real owner, they might never get caught as the ANPR cameras can only see plates, not type of vehicle.

 

There's been quite a few reported cases of this, where the car was... a car, but the evidence camera clearly showed a van or different type of car or that was a totally different colour. Usually that's enough evidence to get the victim off the hook, esp. if it's a speeding or similar fine from the police.

However, often fines from the local council and famously the Dartford crossing were refused to be rescinded and needed to be fought off with more effort.

[Rhymes with Paris]

Ah, I see, thank you for explaining.

My dash cam just records what's in front of it, not Geo location.

I reckon that those with larceny in their veins will always seek to cheat and steal, and money grub ,no matter what the self justification.

Honest people don't do this, no matter what the reason.

[Haliotis]

Does a dash am keep historic records?  And do we all hold back records that can prove our whereabouts on any given date in the recent past?  Because there can be a delay of several days between a cloned vehicle attracting a penalty, and when the victim actually gets the NIP.  And when you are dealing with a group of authorities that work on the principle of guilty until the victim can prove innocence, there can be a situation of mental distress.  How many of us can really prove, or even remember, where we were at a given time and date only a few days previous?

A friend of ours was an HGV driver.  Whilst abroad with his wagon, his vehicle was reported by a witness as being at the scene of a crime.  To the argument that he was abroad, the police claimed he could have returned to the UK without his wagon, been involved in the crime, and then gone back to the continent.

As it turned out, his car, when he bought it, was one of a fleet sale, and the witness had got one digit wrong.  But he went through the wringer by the police until logic dawned - he is by no means a nervous person, but at one point he began to believe his innocence would not save him.

[Bper]

Even if the police identify a cloned plate the chances of that car being located and pulled over is probably the same chance as drink drivers in a rural village being pulled over FA.

How many false plates are used every day in reality.?

[STANLEY82]

14 hours ago, DerekHa said:

Hi Ian,

Just been reading through the latest posts and came across yours. Cloned plates are nothing new at all they've been in use by the "people" who give don't a ***** about others for many years now. ULEZ is just another lucrative excuse for unscrupless traders to offer these or for people to even modify their own number plates to confuse the Police, enforcement camera's and now TFL.

My advise for your sisters friend is to contact the Police, they should at least create an incident number on their Command and Control system especially if she has multiple fines that she hasn't incurred as evidence. Better still if she has the evidence to show she's recieving the fines will be to ask the Police to update the Police National Computer with what's called an information report to the effect there is another vehicle being used with her registration plates but that may be more difficult.

She can quote the incident number to TFL or their agents trying to collect the fines. TFL have access to the shared DVLA/PNC data base and it should show up when TFL check the registration number. Don't ignore the fines as they won't go away unlike some of the other shyster's involved in parking on private property and car parks.

I should have stated she has contacted the Police and has a Crime-Reference-Number, as do TFL.  Apparently a few number-plates have recently been cloned in St Albans. With ULEZ expansion I can foresee this crime becoming more widespread. And whilst the 'average' person would never clone someone else's number-plate, it doesn't take much for the greed in human nature to surface. 

The problem is by the time fines come through your door they've changed back to their number plate or someone else's, plus the Police are just so under-resourced and criminals know this. 

[STANLEY82]

8 hours ago, Cyker said:

That said, there's a good chance the cloned plate wouldn't even match the vehicle - This is especially common for people trying to evade the ULEZ, as they'll e.g. clone a Prius plate and stick it on a white van, and as long as they don't get done for some other offence that results in a letter being sent to the real owner, they might never get caught as the ANPR cameras can only see plates, not type of vehicle.

AFIK her number-plate did match, she drives a Ford-Focus which is probably one of the most common cars on the road.

[STANLEY82]

9 hours ago, Rhymes with Paris said:

see a couple of posts advising tamper proof fixings on the cloned number plate issue.

Have I misunderstood this problem?

I thought the main method of cloning plates was to spot a car the same model and colour, and then get them made up at an unauthorised place for a tenner.

Not physically remove them.

AFIK the main problem is cloning NP's, however some folk will steal NP's.  If you drive a non-complaint ULEZ / CAZ vehicle, for the sake of a few quid best to buy tamper-proof screws and put some distinctive sticker or markings next to NP. 

[Haliotis]

If the cloned vehicle and its owner is known by the cloner, then there is a good chance they might also replicate any markings in the region of the number plates.

All number plates are now required by law to have the supplying garage’s details along their bottom edge.  Are the detection cameras of a sufficient quality to reproduce this image because, to complete the security loop, they certainly should be?

The cloner is hardly going to be able to get his false plates made by the supplier of the cloned car, so here is a victim’s first step in proving a cloned image is not his/her car.

[Basil-BarryC]

11 minutes ago, Haliotis said:

If the cloned vehicle and its owner is known by the cloner, then there is a good chance they might also replicate any markings in the region of the number plates.

All number plates are now required by law to have the supplying garage’s details along their bottom edge.  Are the detection cameras of a sufficient quality to reproduce this image because, to complete the security loop, they certainly should be?

The cloner is hardly going to be able to get his false plates made by the supplier of the cloned car, so here is a victim’s first step in proving a cloned image is not his/her car.

Not sure the ULEZ camera resolution would be high enough to read the dealer info on the plates ?

[Haliotis]

2 hours ago, Basil-BarryC said:

Not sure the ULEZ camera resolution would be high enough to read the dealer info on the plates ?

You may well be right about that.  BUT, since the dealer info on the plate is a legal requirement, and can therefore be a critical piece of evidence in helping the victim, then the camera operators (e.g., TfL) should be legally required to have cameras with the necessary resolution to meet this criteria.  Khan is pulling in enough revenue to pay for high resolution cameras, and owes this provision to the motoring public.

[Cyker]

To be fair, there are not many camera systems that could pick up such small detail on a moving vehicle that could also be had at reasonable cost. The plate supplier text is just too small to be read by anything reasonably affordable at long range.

Even the ANPR cameras are purely infrared because that's the only way for them to get a sufficiently clear high contrast image of the plate (NPs have very high infrared reflection around the letters!) (Which is a bit of an achilles heel since it turns out you can use IR-blocking photosensor filters/tape to blank out all or part of the NP while leaving it clear to normal light!)

 

  

23 hours ago, Haliotis said:

Does a dash am keep historic records?  And do we all hold back records that can prove our whereabouts on any given date in the recent past?  Because there can be a delay of several days between a cloned vehicle attracting a penalty, and when the victim actually gets the NIP.  And when you are dealing with a group of authorities that work on the principle of guilty until the victim can prove innocence, there can be a situation of mental distress.  How many of us can really prove, or even remember, where we were at a given time and date only a few days previous?

They do but it depends on the size of the memory card - My one has a 256GB card and that lasts me just under 2 weeks, which I find is the rough time it takes authorities around here to send me fines.

I got screwed by the default 32GB card always having overwritten the footage I wanted by the time I received the fine, so I consider the larger card a good investment, as it's gotten me out of a few driving in the bus lane and yellow box junction fines because I had reason and footage showing extenuating circumstances.

I want to get a new Dashcam and plan to get an even bigger card now that 512GB ones are out!  

 

23 hours ago, Rhymes with Paris said:

Ah, I see, thank you for explaining.

My dash cam just records what's in front of it, not Geo location.

To be fair, just seeing what is in front is enough, unless it's some nondescript country road  

Just some landmarks like the local post office or highstreet or something is enough to establish your wearabouts at the time.

As long as you have evidence to show you weren't there, that should be enough to cast doubt and show you are not the responsible party.

 

[Bper]

The dealer info on a plate can be printed just as easy as the cloned plate number it's self. technology has ensured that. As already been mentioned the camera resolutions are not high enough to pick up a moving vehicle.

I suspect the revenue stream that is received from legit number fines doesn't give rise to cloned vehicle detection being very much a priority.

As always money is the goal.☹️