Ae86 Chat

[EircamAE86]

Excellent, finally a forum where UK/Ireland ae86 owners can chat, those lads @ club 4ag are a waste of time.

Please feel free to chat about anything ae86 related, questions from complete novices are welcome as we all had to start somewhere, and I still havent got a clue!!!!!!!

[guglielmo]

Easy on Club4ag... that place is one of the original's and the old boys on there have a lot of AE86 knowledge. Just try and ignore the bull**** and the Initial D posts, but that's not Club4ag's fault...

[T BALL]

ive got an ae86 question. where do you guys find/buy parts? i want a complete axle with brakes. anyone help?

[PazzaAE86]

Easy on Club4ag... that place is one of the original's and the old boys on there have a lot of AE86 knowledge. Just try and ignore the bull**** and the Initial D posts, but that's not Club4ag's fault...

Seconded. If you know who to talk to, then Club4ag has some of the most knowledgable people on there, its just hard to find the right people these days due to the massive influx of new kids and such... Its irritating sometimes but worth persevering with... But if we can have some good chats here then thats even better...

First subject of discussion? Carbs and ITB's for 4AG.

Anyone know exactly whats needed to run either of those setups, preferably cheaply. I have to hand some Silvertop ITB's and i can get a manifold easily, im just wondering about the rest of the setup: namely TPS and Management, along with a few injector and fuel rail questions. It seems overly complex for small gains and carbs would be alot simpler to run cus i aint gotta mess about with managment, vacuum, TPS etc.

Thanks

Paz

[AE86drifto]

Easy on Club4ag... that place is one of the original's and the old boys on there have a lot of AE86 knowledge. Just try and ignore the bull**** and the Initial D posts, but that's not Club4ag's fault...

Seconded. If you know who to talk to, then Club4ag has some of the most knowledgable people on there, its just hard to find the right people these days due to the massive influx of new kids and such... Its irritating sometimes but worth persevering with... But if we can have some good chats here then thats even better...

First subject of discussion? Carbs and ITB's for 4AG.

Anyone know exactly whats needed to run either of those setups, preferably cheaply. I have to hand some Silvertop ITB's and i can get a manifold easily, im just wondering about the rest of the setup: namely TPS and Management, along with a few injector and fuel rail questions. It seems overly complex for small gains and carbs would be alot simpler to run cus i aint gotta mess about with managment, vacuum, TPS etc.

Thanks

Paz

You would have to run a different ECU, but I guess you could use the 20V injectors and map sensor from the ITB.

I heard some good things about the Freedom ECU, anyone ever heard of them? There is also a company called Megaquirt that does ECU's as well.

You should be able to get a good gains with 20V ITB setup on a 16V as you can fine tune a it a lot more than a side draught setup and have better driveability :D

Just my opinion offcourse :D :D :D :D

[PazzaAE86]

You would have to run a different ECU, but I guess you could use the 20V injectors and map sensor from the ITB.

A new ECU is something i dont think will be 100% neccessary. I think a piggy back fuel computer might well suffice (keeping costs down here), but having a Haltec ECU would make life alot, lot easier (including the wiring of the TPS it seems). Freedom is supposed to be awesome but having no support in the UK isnt going to make life easy...

The MAP signal is pretty easy to do i think, just tee off from the vac lines on the ITB's and get your MAP reading from across all 4 TB's to get an average. The injectors is something i was wondering about, and a friend of mine has a 16v w/ ITB's on his Levin and the engine builders in Japan used the Injector ports in the Head, and blocked off the ITB Injector ports. Again, doing it that way would make things alot easier i reckon. Cant remember how the fuel rail was setup tho..

Its just that we kinda wieghed up all of these problems and all kinda hit the same target, carbs would be easier and more simple to do... But yes, not as accurate and difficult to tune untill you know how. Sounds like fun to learn tho!

Hmm... :bookworm:

[86Jay]

Paz I was looking at sone 20V ITB conversion and noticed that the throttle cable pulled from on top unlike Alex's where it was underneath. I think our plan of flipping the throttles over will work at least thats the TPS problem sorted.

I bet you go off the idea when you drive James's GZE NA just won't compare except for the noise.

Jay

[PazzaAE86]

Paz I was looking at sone 20V ITB conversion and noticed that the throttle cable pulled from on top unlike Alex's where it was underneath. I think our plan of flipping the throttles over will work at least thats the TPS problem sorted.

I bet you go off the idea when you drive James's GZE NA just won't compare except for the noise.

Jay

Cool, so TPS isnt an issue, injectors shouldnt be an issue, the manifold isnt an issue, management wouldnt be an issue if you got Haltec, and the haltec would make the TPS super simple.

So i think the only issues left would be a custom throttle cable bracket if the 20v TB's dont come with one.. I wonder if a 16v TPS would fit on the side of the 20v ITB's... I guess its would just be a case of sucking it and seeing..

But yeah, i'll wait until ive driven James GZE first :D

[irishtwincam]

You can do the carb thing simple enough.

Inlet manifold to suit big/small port (richard macer for this), set of forties and pick your linkage from any weber catalogue. If you wanna be different LEARN to tune them from an experienced 4AG tuner.

Ignition can be tricky, using a ford dizzy unit bodged onto an ae86 shaft is common but I dont like it.

FORD? UGH!

If you want to run the carbs with ECU ignition youll need to tap the 4 inlet ports and join them to a vaccuum canister. A fifth nipple on the canister needs to be onnected to your vaccuum advance sensor.

Youll also need a bracket on the end of your carbs to mount the 4ag TPS.

4ag ecu uses TPS & Vacc to determine spark timing.

http://www.vhtracing.com/pasin_stara/DSC01938.jpg

We purchased one of the the above TPS adapters from Pasi and MIkko on VHTracing.com We have an RMSport head with custom cams getting shimmed at the mo. Sticking it on a reconditioned red-top bottom end (10.8:1 comp) higher if we go playing with head gaskets n stuff.

Will let you know how the power comes out ;)

Pazz:

Id say AFC is handy enough for EFI app.

I was given some hands on experience a while back.

An A/F ratio meter on #4 exhaust pipe and some dyno time will have you sorted.

Well be turboing a GZE in december and its gonna be a neccessary piece of kit, even if boost will be limited to 14psi.

Club4AG is as you say full of great people and the influx of noobs does ***** a lot of people off. Most dont read the TECH section or search the past posts which usually answers most questions, or they post out of context (ie bodywork question under the engine forum).

Anyone know what RTFM means ;)

Ill be hanging around TOC.com a bit more now that I know there are more serious UK/Irish AE86 owners here.

P Turner

pjturner AT yahoo DOT com

[PazzaAE86]

Hi Pete, how goes it!?

Just wondering about using stock 4AG Ignition with Carbs here, i thought that the stock Dizzy couldnt advance past 14 or 15 Deg on WOT, and to run carbs you need a range of up to 35 Deg Advance? Now im not sure on this because im peicing together bits of information that ive read over the years but the usual solution to this is to modify the dizzy bracket and fix it at 30-35 Deg all the time? Which works above like 3-4k rpm but is bad below because it cant adjust. Is this just a cheap way of doing it, instead of using the stock TPS and ECU to control timing? But then still, how do you achieve the 30-35 deg advance you need?

I wish i could just buy a "kit" to run carbs with at a reasonable lick, you know like all the bits you just mentioned and all i had to do was to source a manifold and some carbs, bash it on, jet it up and away i go.. That would rock :)

Paz

PS: That could all be <the spuds of lurrrrvve>s but i just finished a night shift and so im rambling and confused :)

[Treuno]

Sorry to interupt your in depth conversation but just have to tell u people that i have just ordered my 20valve!!! Yeah baby!!! lol.

Junked all of the original engine management and electrics, and replaced it with a fully mapable engine management system! Which will run the original throttle bodies! 170bhp at 8500rpm here we come!

Sideways will be even more fun now!!

[guglielmo]

Junked all of the original engine management and electrics, and replaced it with a fully mapable engine management system! Which will run the original throttle bodies! 170bhp at 8500rpm here we come!

What management you going to run?

Don't mean to ***** on your fireworks like, but even with mappabl£ manag£m£nt, don't bank on 170 ponies on a stock VVT'd 20v.....

Will still be class though. Are you going DLI?

[Treuno]

Im going to run Omex management system, seems to work better than motec for this engine!

I will be running the more powerful black top 20v, and with no emission control stuff it should be close to the 170! Thats what the company im buying it off say anyway! &#33;Removed&#33; hope so!

I take it when you say DLI, that means distributor less ignition! If so then yes i am! Coil packs are the way forward.

[PazzaAE86]

should be close to the 170! Thats what the company im buying it off say anyway!

As far as im aware, the 20v engine makes around 170hp on the test bench ie. with no water pump hooked up, no extra belt losses (alternator etc) and such. When its in the car with all the ancilliaries hooked up, i reckon you're looking at 140-145hp (at the fly) and thats when the engine is brand new in top condition...

Could be wrong like, but thats always been my understanding.

Paz

[Treuno]

4AGE 20 VALVE

Another conversion we Import is the 4AGE 1600cc 20V (yes 5 valve per cylinder = TWENTY VALVE), Variable Cam Timing, 4 Throttle Bodies and 160 ps @ 7400rpm in standard form with a cat

This is taken from Fensport's website. And that is the silver top engine!

The company im getting the engine from is called RAW! They fit these engines into there kit cars and regually have 165bhp when they set it up on the rollers! :D

[guglielmo]

should be close to the 170! Thats what the company im buying it off say anyway!

As far as im aware, the 20v engine makes around 170hp on the test bench ie. with no water pump hooked up, no extra belt losses (alternator etc) and such. When its in the car with all the ancilliaries hooked up, i reckon you're looking at 140-145hp (at the fly) and thats when the engine is brand new in top condition...

Could be wrong like, but thats always been my understanding.

Paz

Totally correct. Toyota are often guilty of bullsh!tting us in this rather cheeky manner.

As for RAW's claims of consistent 165bhp.... is that on a specially mapped Omex or stock ECU? Is the Omex big money?

I have seen finely tuned, near stock blacktops can make around 150-160bhp with aftermarket ECU's (eg Freedom, Haltech, Motec, Megasquirt) and plenty of tweaking time.

Mine probably makes around 140bhp at a guess from feel and comparisons from past 16v AE86 experiences. That's stock, with only funnels and a !Removed! 4-1 manifold, with a dodgy wobbly front-mount dizzy kit (Garage Annex rip-off). Still, it's a lot smoother and more spread out (VVT) than a 16v.

DLI will certainly help a little, and careful fine tuning can yield a few more ponies.

Good luck with it and I hope you get over 160bhp; that's more than enough for a lightweight 'Rolla! Let us know how you get on.

[Treuno]

As for RAW's claims of consistent 165bhp.... is that on a specially mapped Omex or stock ECU? Is the Omex big money?

Yeah it is on their own mapped omex system! Costing around £1500!

Mine probably makes around 140bhp at a guess from feel and comparisons from past 16v AE86 experiences. That's stock, with only funnels and a !Removed! 4-1 manifold, with a dodgy wobbly front-mount dizzy kit (Garage Annex rip-off). Still, it's a lot smoother and more spread out (VVT) than a 16v.

When you say 'funnels' do you mean the same thing as trumpets??

Raw dont use straight trumpets they use these updraft (no i dont mean downdraft! they suck from underneath) style trumpets with a 45 degree bend in them! When they tried staight trumpets it dropped power down by about 15-20 bhp!