Do you think the Yaris/Yaris cross will go full electric?

[Cyker]

I do feel as a propulsion unit, electric motors are and have been superior to everything else since they were invented; The stickler has always been how to power the bugger.

It's all well and good EVangelists cawing about how they have 100x better power to weight and volume ratio, but that's incredibly deceptive - By the time you add in all the power electronics and the Battery all thos advantages have gone out the proverbial window!

I'm just hoping PartsKing is right about solid-state batteries - They do seem like the most likely to not be snake oil as, unlike everyone else, Toyota have been keeping their heads down working on them quietly, while everyone else is harping on about how their new Battery chemistry in a bit to attract venture capitalists while not actually having anything to show other than simulations and maybes.

 

Hydrogen is a tricky one - IMHO it is literally the worst solution we have; It's extremely volatile, hard to contain, hard to make efficiently and in bulk, and just objectively worse than every current chemical fuel we have. It's effectively a very lossy energy storage system.

The ONLY advantage it has, is it doesn't have carbon atoms in it. That's it.

I'm hoping CO2 capture being rolled into synthetic fuel becomes more acceptable as a solution, as to me that seems like it would be a better solution than hydrogen - It would be far less disruptive to the existing state of things, and would help balance out the carbon cycle, which is decidedly lopsided at the moment.

I think if the people in charge thought about and planned things more instead of knee-jerk reactions and buying into hysteria, they'd see that as it stands, even if we switched to EVs, that wouldn't improve things - The excess CO2 isn't just going to go away on its own and would take centuries to come down naturally - but if we can make atmospheric CO2 extraction an industry then we stand a better chance of bringing it down on a shorter timescale.

(Of course, then we'd have to deal with the problem where we'd extracted too much CO2 and now all the plants are dying, but that's a problem for later  )

 

[Juicedrinker69]

On 8/23/2023 at 1:56 AM, MikeSh said:

From what I've read there is a lot of industrial focus on procuring lithium and other minerals for 'current tech' batteries over the next several or many years, so I think you are probably right.

I'm sure there will be a breakthrough, or two, eventually, but it won't be in any showroom soon. And for a few years after it won't be cheap ... because ...

I work in an area of car development and sadly agree / think that it will be a good few years before an alternative to Lithium batteries are offered.  There are a couple of key reasons for this one being that car manufacturers have invested significantly  with mining companies and tooling / production sites to ensure their predicted needs are met based on current Lithium Ion batteries.  The cars in or planned for production are based on the size, weight, charging etc of current lithium batteries and it would require significant modifications to the cars set up, geometry, suspension etc if the area where batteries are placed / wired in (let alone the weight differential) was altered.  Also vehicle manufacturers would want it all introduced / phased in a way that it doesn't push used values off the edge of a cliff.  As a lot of vehicles are bought on PCP they would not want a vehicle back at say year 4 to find they have to put it on forecourt at 50% or more less than its expected value.  Otherwise they would need to increase the monthly payments to make up for what they would lose at the end of the term.

I guess when the next improved Battery development eventually emerges it will be offered at a premium price on only select models until the used market has cleared out most of the older Battery stock and then gradually introduced across the range. 

 

[Juicedrinker69]

22 minutes ago, Cyker said:

I do feel as a propulsion unit, electric motors are and have been superior to everything else since they were invented; The stickler has always been how to power the bugger.

It's all well and good EVangelists cawing about how they have 100x better power to weight and volume ratio, but that's incredibly deceptive - By the time you add in all the power electronics and the battery all thos advantages have gone out the proverbial window!

I'm just hoping PartsKing is right about solid-state batteries - They do seem like the most likely to not be snake oil as, unlike everyone else, Toyota have been keeping their heads down working on them quietly, while everyone else is harping on about how their new battery chemistry in a bit to attract venture capitalists while not actually having anything to show other than simulations and maybes.

 

Hydrogen is a tricky one - IMHO it is literally the worst solution we have; It's extremely volatile, hard to contain, hard to make efficiently and in bulk, and just objectively worse than every current chemical fuel we have. It's effectively a very lossy energy storage system.

The ONLY advantage it has, is it doesn't have carbon atoms in it. That's it.

I'm hoping CO2 capture being rolled into synthetic fuel becomes more acceptable as a solution, as to me that seems like it would be a better solution than hydrogen - It would be far less disruptive to the existing state of things, and would help balance out the carbon cycle, which is decidedly lopsided at the moment.

I think if the people in charge thought about and planned things more instead of knee-***** reactions and buying into hysteria, they'd see that as it stands, even if we switched to EVs, that wouldn't improve things - The excess CO2 isn't just going to go away on its own and would take centuries to come down naturally - but if we can make atmospheric CO2 extraction an industry then we stand a better chance of bringing it down on a shorter timescale.

(Of course, then we'd have to deal with the problem where we'd extracted too much CO2 and now all the plants are dying, but that's a problem for later  )

 

All spot on and whilst Hydrogen in many ways sounded a great alternative (filling from a pump, speed, water vapour instead of pollutants) as you correctly state its not as simple as that and in fact there are huge environmental and safety issues with Hydrogen that those who say Hydrogen is the answer because of what comes out of the exhaust pipe clearly do not understand how it is produced to get to the pump for the car in the first place.

[davidif]

17 hours ago, Primus1 said:

The answer is quite simple…hamsters…imagine those little critters powering millions of hamster wheels generating thousands of kilowatts, I’m setting up such a venture if you all send me, say  £20 , you too could be in on this exciting opportunity……

I only have onw question, where do I mail the cheque🤣

[Juicedrinker69]

13 hours ago, Cowgirl said:

Hydrogen is the way forward. Why have the Chinese spent all this money on the technology?

Sadly it isn't, its ok for commercial vehicles but will never be suitable for regular drivers and doesn't help environmentally 

[Cyker]

I must admit I do fear for the haulage industry - Batteries just won't cut it for the kinds of load and mileage they do.

Hydrogen is the only way they can have zero CO2 output and still be able to go long distance with a heavy load, but I don't think anybody's looked into how much that would cost - Hydrogen is very expensive, and the efficiency of fuel cells is around the same as conventional fuels, and much worse under heavy load, certainly nowhere near the efficiency of an EV.

Not sure how hydrogen combustion engines compare - Apparently they can be run at very high compression ratios which helps, but they also emit loads of NOx, which is the main thing diesels were demonized for, so not sure if they'll even get off the ground there...

We might even have a silly situation like the initial seasons of Formula E, where you have one trailer and 6 different trucks need to relay it up the motorway!  

[Yugguy1970]

Aye, as a purely motive power electric is fantastic.  Instant low down torque, no spooling, no spinning up of revs.  What we all like most in our hybrids is how the EV part of it gives it instant go.

We need someone to really crack cold fusion,  cheap, clean(ish), abundant energy could mean less worry about hydrogen extraction inefficiency.

[Cyker]

Yeah! Where's our Mr Fusion units damnit! We should have had them in 2015 according to Back to the Future!   

At this point I'd even settle for the plutonium rod setup of the original car if I didn't have to change it for 10 years and they threw in the radiation suit!

[MikeSh]

3 hours ago, Yugguy1970 said:

cold fusion,  cheap, clean(ish), abundant energy

So it would be too cheap to meter 😍

(I'm sure I've heard that before somewhere actually ... 🤔 )

[Primus1]

7 hours ago, davidif said:

I only have onw question, where do I mail the cheque🤣

Well I’m in the process of setting up a P.O. Box here in the uk, if there’s enough subscribers, this will move to the Bahamas 

[dannyboy413]

8 hours ago, Juicedrinker69 said:

water vapour instead of pollutants

So, if hydrogen does get universally accepted, will all the extra water vapour rise into the atmosphere, create clouds, which will make rain, which will lead to increased bouts of flooding .....?  Then people 'in the know' will blame it on something called 'climate change'.  Just a thought. 🙂

[Cyker]

Won't make any difference; You do realize all petrol and diesel already emit water vapour as part of their exhaust...?

The car's energy cycle is a bit like that of living creatures - Ingest fuel and oxygen; exhaust CO2 and water.

 

[MikeSh]

51 minutes ago, dannyboy413 said:

create clouds

There are currently full scale experiments to try and reduce aircraft contrails, because like natural high level clouds they trap heat in the atmosphere. No joke - American Airlines have been testing it with their aircraft.

Law of unintended consequences means everything we try will have a downside. Just gotta balance it all.

[Derek.w]

Toyota can always just move the name across to the new platform!! and call it a BZ4X Yaris.

[Cyker]

Or the Y4R1X?  

 

[Yugguy1970]

They're just so pricy.  B4ZX in AWD which really they all should be, is 52k.

For 52k I want at least 300bhp as well as the awd.  

So how much would an EV Yaris or Yaris Cross be?

[Cyker]

Uncomfortably close to that 40k tax threshold I suspect...

[dannyboy413]

23 hours ago, Cyker said:

You do realize all petrol and diesel already emit water vapour as part of their exhaust...?

 

 

Yes - and my tongue was firmly in my cheek when I writ wot I wrote 😀. (Blame it on my weird sense of humour).